Brexit Discussion Thread VI

RobMc59 · 29-01-2019 06:11PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

It is actually 5 years of Groundhog day. Did you see the documentary on BBC last night about the build up to the referendum? Cameron was back and forth to Brussels with his red lines looking for concessions under threat of calling a referendum. Then, even when he called the referendum, he was back and forth to Brussels with his red lines under threat of not supporting remain.

The sad thing about it was he actually did get some decent concessions which were rejected by the arrogant tories in Westminster.

ancapailldorcha · 29-01-2019 06:15PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

The sad thing about it was he actually did get some decent concessions which were rejected by the arrogant tories in Westminster.

From my reading of the subject, he didn't seek all that much. Passports weren't even mentioned and the emergency brake thing was there already. The UK was never going to enter the Eurozone without its own consent and the "Ever closer union" concession was utterly meaningless considering that EU states have to ratify the treaties.

J Mysterio · 29-01-2019 06:20PM

I dont think the EU can or should reopen negotiations. Every single person of signifigance on the EU side has categorically ruled out changing the Withdrawal Agreement.

It's the political declaration they want to talk about, and the future relationship. This seems to be lost on many MPs and May should spend a bit more time stressing this. That the backstop is the last resort scenario.

Yet again, you would wonder what May is doing. Her 'leadership' or 'plan' at the moment seems to consist of reccomending Parliament pass an amendment to change the EU offer, though that is obviously off the table. Out of the question. So what is the point of this? Wasting more valuable time to get - presumably - immediately rebuffed by the EU (embarassingly).

At least the Grieve amendment lets Parliament do May's job for her and Coopers rules out the default unmitigated disaster. If these don't pass, may as well just burn the place down now.

Tell me how · 29-01-2019 06:24PM

One MP who doesn't give 2 figs about today's debates or votes.

Fiona Onasanya

An MP has become the first sitting politician in nearly three decades to be jailed after she lied to police when she was issued with a speeding ticket.

Solicitor Fiona Onasanya had denied being behind the wheel when her car was spotted being driven at 41mph in a 30mph zone, in July 2017.

The Peterborough MP was thrown out of the Labour Party after being convicted of perverting the course of justice.

She has been jailed for three months after a re-trial at the Old Bailey.

In fact, she's probably delighted about Brexit.

L1011 · 29-01-2019 06:25PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

From my reading of the subject, he didn't seek all that much. Passports weren't even mentioned and the emergency brake thing was there already. The UK was never going to enter the Eurozone without its own consent and the "Ever closer union" concession was utterly meaningless considering that EU states have to ratify the treaties.

Passports as in the colour, which they were free to change anyway; or something else?

ancapailldorcha · 29-01-2019 06:26PM

L1011 wrote: »

Passports as in the colour, which they were free to change anyway; or something else?

Color. Half-baked not to factor that in but then half-baked describes the whole process to be honest.

RobMc59 · 29-01-2019 06:28PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

From my reading of the subject, he didn't seek all that much. Passports weren't even mentioned and the emergency brake thing was there already. The UK was never going to enter the Eurozone without its own consent and the "Ever closer union" concession was utterly meaningless considering that EU states have to ratify the treaties.

Britain had it all and it looks like it's being thrown away,for what?-"castle in the sky"trade deals with timbuk too and other nonentity places..

Mr.Nice Guy · 29-01-2019 06:29PM

Hurrache wrote: »

The DUP are not in the least bit interested in those they claim to represent.
https://twitter.com/CarolineLucas/status/1090282465388908544

The sad thing is they feel they can get away with this stuff because of their core support. I listened to BBC's Talkback show yesterday where they discussed the recent nationalist conference this past weekend. I was struck by the amount of unionist callers, have to say many sounding 50 or over, who staunchly defend and believe in Brexit. One lady saying it was wrong to believe a no-deal Brexit would be a bad thing before it has happened. One fellow saying it was all the fault of May the remainer being at the helm.

The only way I can see them suffering at the ballot box in a future election is if all those who don't vote because they're apathetic towards NI politics, especially young voters, dramatically change their stance and mobilise to get them out. Might the DUP's anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, and now anti-soft border stance be enough to do this? I'm sceptical but can only hope so. I think the change is coming inevitably sooner or later.

Hermy · 29-01-2019 06:29PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

I dont think the EU can or should reopen negotiations.

On that, has there been any comment from Brussels re May's intention to go back and renegotiate?

ancapailldorcha · 29-01-2019 06:30PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain had it all and it looks like it's being thrown away,for what?-"castle in the sky"trade deals with timbuk too and other nonentity places..

Nobody voted Leave for trade deals. In my experience, the guff about trade is a red herring because nobody wants to say immigration because they can't concoct a logical argument against it or sovereignty because they can't name any EU laws they want to be rid of. It was also a helpful way to counter people who were worried about their incomes.

Britain had it all but it's being thrown away for a needle and thread to knit an increasingly fractious Tory party back together. And we won't even get that.

Water John · 29-01-2019 06:31PM

The response has already been leaked, 2 sources one being Bloomberg, variation of, forget it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/29/eu-rule-out-brexit-renegotiation-brady-amendment-pass

ancapailldorcha · 29-01-2019 06:32PM

Water John wrote: »

The response has already been leaked, 2 sources one being Bloomberg, variation of, forget it.

So we have yet another case of the EU doing what it said it would do while the clock continues to tick. Excellent.

Professor Moriarty · 29-01-2019 06:35PM

Hermy wrote: »

On that, has there been any comment from Brussels re May's intention to go back and renegotiate?

Apparently Juncker emphatically ruled out renegotiation in a phone call with May this afternoon before she spoke in the HoC. All about party unity.

J Mysterio · 29-01-2019 06:36PM

Hermy wrote: »

On that, has there been any comment from Brussels re May's intention to go back and renegotiate?

In the last number of days, Michel Barnier, Sabine Weyand, Guy Verhofstadt, Claude Juncker, i think Selmayr and numerous other officials and PM's from within Europe have all said the Withdrawal Agreement is as negotiated and won't be reopened.

The olive branch is a whisper that renegotiation could only be achieved through the removal of a TM red line e.g. Customs Union as it is the UK red lines which formed the bastard WA.

If May literally goes back to the EU, I expect it to be very embarassing for her, the UK and parliament. It's time to wake up, 59 days to go.

prawnsambo · 29-01-2019 06:38PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

From my reading of the subject, he didn't seek all that much. Passports weren't even mentioned and the emergency brake thing was there already. The UK was never going to enter the Eurozone without its own consent and the "Ever closer union" concession was utterly meaningless considering that EU states have to ratify the treaties.

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that he wanted a derogation from the tax directive. Or at least a further delay to its implementation.

ilovesmybrick · 29-01-2019 06:38PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So we have yet another case of the EU doing what it said it would do while the clock continues to tick. Excellent.

There are patently a number of individuals in Westminster that are playing for time so that the UK drops out by default on a hard Brexit, but I think there are far more that are waiting for the EU to blink, as is the case in parliamentary politics the world over.

I'm wondering, are they playing British (and Irish) parliamentary politics at an EU level? Honestly at this stage the only rationale I can come up with is that they don't just misunderstand how the EU works and operates, but also that EU politics is the same as on a national level, only bigger. As a country with really no history of coalition governance and essentially a two party system you could see how such a fundamental misreading would lead to where they now find themselves.

Water John · 29-01-2019 06:38PM

May is in effect misleading Parliament as she has been distinctly told, no reopening the WA. She should update HOC on this phone call before the votes this evening.

Hurrache · 29-01-2019 06:41PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Apparently Juncker emphatically ruled out renegotiation in a phone call with May this afternoon before she spoke in the HoC. All about party unity.

Apparently she spoke with Varadkar too giving him the gist of what her plan was.

ancapailldorcha · 29-01-2019 06:50PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that he wanted a derogation from the tax directive. Or at least a further delay to its implementation.

I don't pretend to be an expert in this matter. I can't say no but I think maintaining Tory unity was the primary driver for his holding of the referendum.

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

There are patently a number of individuals in Westminster that are playing for time so that the UK drops out by default on a hard Brexit, but I think there are far more that are waiting for the EU to blink, as is the case in parliamentary politics the world over.

I'm wondering, are they playing British (and Irish) parliamentary politics at an EU level? Honestly at this stage the only rationale I can come up with is that they don't just misunderstand how the EU works and operates, but also that EU politics is the same as on a national level, only bigger. As a country with really no history of coalition governance and essentially a two party system you could see how such a fundamental misreading would lead to where they now find themselves.

I think they're playing disaster capitalism to be honest, the book on which was written by one William Rees-Mogg, father of Jacob.

There are different Brexit factions. Some simply hate the EU, some hate the ECJ, some want to create a low tax Singapore-on-Thames and some are simply Xenophobic. If a hard Brexit occurs, May will be forced to resign. Her successor will have carte blanche to adopt radical measures as is the modus operandi of the disaster capitalist. I can't imagine the NHS surviving given how badly US healthcare firms want to carve it up. Remember we're meant to be getting a great deal from Donald Trump by the way. Workers' rights will be a thing of the past while the former possessors of said rights will be discarded in the path to the new libertarian utopia. Even if the next PM isn't Rees-Mogg, devastating cuts will be needed to compensate for the flight of capital, money and skilled labour.

Nody · 29-01-2019 06:51PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Apparently she spoke with Varadkar too giving him the gist of what her plan was.

That should take all of 10s; May "So I'll promise them what ever they want for me to remain in power and come back to you, ok? Cheers, love, tata".

Frank Bullitt · 29-01-2019 06:53PM

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1090302993801588737

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1090302995143770114

Dead in the water so.

sink · 29-01-2019 06:55PM

Theresa May could take lessons from Sabine Weyand on what being 'clear' actually sounds like. She logically dismantles the 'alternative to the backstop'. Suffice to say, there is absolutely no possibility of the Brady amendment being accepted by the EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNe8qK_-wUI

Water John · 29-01-2019 07:01PM

So she spoke with Juncker BEFORE she gave the debate opening speech to Parliament. Grossly misleading.

Tell me how · 29-01-2019 07:02PM

sink wrote: »

Theresa May could take lessons from Sabine Weyand on what being 'clear' actually sounds like. She logically dismantles the 'alternative to the backstop'. Suffice to say, there is absolutely no possibility of the Brady amendment being accepted by the EU

Impressive communicator in what is her second language.

At 7.43 she is commenting on what is going on in London in relation to the Withdrawal Agreement and says that "A lot of the discussion is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is in the Withdrawal Agreement". Ouch.

Frank Bullitt · 29-01-2019 07:09PM

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1090290876448997377

Sweet Jesus, I had heard about this earlier but thought it was a misquote or joke. But no...

downcow · 29-01-2019 07:18PM

So unfortunately it seems there may be a majority in WM to vote to take no deal of the table. This seriously weakens the UK negotiating strength.
Music to the ears of many of you I am sure.

lawred2 · 29-01-2019 07:21PM

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1090290876448997377

Sweet Jesus, I had heard about this earlier but thought it was a misquote or joke. But no...

Just an idiot seeking a cheap laugh.. safe in the knowledge that no matter what it won't backfire on him because of the rabid partisan nature of his consituent voters

Could you imagine some lad in the Dail trying that?

Front page of every paper tomorrow.

Tell me how · 29-01-2019 07:24PM

downcow wrote: »

So unfortunately it seems there may be a majority in WM to vote to take no deal of the table. This seriously weakens the UK negotiating strength.
Music to the ears of many of you I am sure.

No one here is taking any pleasure in watching what is happening in the UK. We are bemused and shocked and surprised and disappointed and so on.

There are some individuals who it would be nice to see get some comeuppance but as a nation I am saddened to see this whole thing happening.

ilovesmybrick · 29-01-2019 07:24PM

downcow wrote: »

So unfortunately it seems there may be a majority in WM to vote to take no deal of the table. This seriously weakens the UK negotiating strength.
Music to the ears of many of you I am sure.

Honestly, what negotiating strength? The negotiations were concluded last year. The negotiations are now in Westminster. The next negotiations the UK have with the EU are to do with the trading arrangement, and good luck with those!

And I don't believe anyone in this forum wanted this situation. This is not ideal from an Irish or a European perspective, but as Westminster cannot get it's house in order this is what we're left with.

Shelga · 29-01-2019 07:24PM

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1090290876448997377

Sweet Jesus, I had heard about this earlier but thought it was a misquote or joke. But no...

Sammy Wilson is truly repulsive, as well as thick. With every moronic utterance of his, a united Ireland gets closer.

Brexit Discussion Thread VI

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