Cancer - Blind Faith

wakka12 · 16-01-2019 05:05PM

Yeh its really interesting. Prostate cancer 12 times higher in USA than CHina. Bladder cancer more than 2x times higher, kidney cancer nearly 3x times more common

Stomach and liver ten times higher in China than USA, Oesaphageal cancer 5x times

Really shows how important lifestyle is, or rather the lifestyle that makes you or your ethnicity/gender more susceptible to certain diseases

Skin cancer being nearly 50x times more common in USA is obviously because of the amount of fair skinned people of european descent though

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3643656/

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 18-01-2019 12:28AM

wakka12 wrote: »

Yeh its really interesting. Prostate cancer 12 times higher in USA than CHina. Bladder cancer more than 2x times higher, kidney cancer nearly 3x times more common

Stomach and liver ten times higher in China than USA, Oesaphageal cancer 5x times

Really shows how important lifestyle is, or rather the lifestyle that makes you or your ethnicity/gender more susceptible to certain diseases

Skin cancer being nearly 50x times more common in USA is obviously because of the amount of fair skinned people of european descent though

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3643656/

But on the other hand, a paper came out in the last few years that stated that a good percentage of cancer cases are just dumb bad luck, just random point mutations.

Good lifestyle helps lower risk but is sadly not a forcefield against developing cancer. I’m acquainted with a good few cancer patients who had truly exemplary lifestyles for much of their lives. And heredity doesn’t explain away the development of cancer for all of them. It’s such an unbelievably complex issue with so many facets. And I read somewhere recently that people who lead healthy lifestyles are often diagnosed with cancer at later stages because both they and their doctors think it couldn’t possibly be cancer because of their lifestyle. Especially if they are young. So thinking that lifestyle will completely protect you and ignoring potential signs of cancer because of that is dangerous thinking. People should live healthily but still keep in mind that it doesn’t mean for sure that they will stay healthy. It just increases their chances of staying healthy.

nacho libre · 28-01-2019 06:20AM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

But on the other hand, a paper came out in the last few years that stated that a good percentage of cancer cases are just dumb bad luck, just random point mutations.

Good lifestyle helps lower risk but is sadly not a forcefield against developing cancer.

So in our case it can't really be determined if it was his diet (he ate a lot of processed ham over the years) that caused his cancer. Maybe it was just "bad luck" as you put it. As he said himself, Swayze and Brian Lenihan probably had very good diets and they still got cancer. I think what you say is true, a good diet doesn't give you immunity from all types of Cancer, but would certainly significantly decrease your risk of getting some types of Cancer.

DBB · 28-01-2019 09:27AM

Hammer89 wrote: »

Pancreatic cancer, as you say, is one of those which is often too advanced by the time major symptoms begin, but in his case he did experience minor symptoms and got them checked straight away. He knew something was wrong and now it could literally save his life. It goes without saying but everything hinges on early detection.

All the very best to your uncle... He's already been through a hell of a battle, here's hoping the operation goes well and his recovery is speedy.
Can I ask... What sort of symptoms did he experience that made him think something wasn't right?

Hammer89 · 28-01-2019 09:41AM

DBB wrote: »

All the very best to your uncle... He's already been through a hell of a battle, here's hoping the operation goes well and his recovery is speedy.
Can I ask... What sort of symptoms did he experience that made him think something wasn't right?

The operation was a success, yep. He's still recovering in hospital. It'll be a long nine months or so recovery time (from the surgery) but he can start rebuilding his life and making plans finally.

I don't know all of the symptoms he experienced (upset tummy was definitely one) but I can find out if you're worried or curious.

DBB · 28-01-2019 09:52AM

Hammer89 wrote: »

The operation was a success, yep. He's still recovering in hospital. It'll be a long nine months or so recovery time (from the surgery) but he can start rebuilding his life and making plans finally.

I don't know all of the symptoms he experienced (upset tummy was definitely one) but I can find out if you're worried or curious.

Oops, I didn't realise that you had posted a few weeks ago... He's had his operation by now! Delighted he's through it now. He must be some battler

I'm curious more than worried... I often hear people saying they didn't feel right, got it checked out, and were diagnosed with X cancer. I've always wondered what that "not feeling right" actually was. Given that pancreatic cancer is so often a "silent" but rapidly terminal diagnosis, I'm curious to know what it was that tipped your uncle off? I'd be afraid that I'd be feeling off but would just put it down to a bug, or tiredness or whatever, and not get it checked. So if the opportunity comes along that you can find out at some stage, it'd be nice to know... You never know, it might help somebody reading this thread

Hammer89 · 28-01-2019 10:05AM

I wonder if it's a silent cancer because it never displays any symptoms whatsoever, or because the symptoms are so minor that most people just think nothing of them at the time. But yes you're right, somebody could benefit. I'll post again when I speak to him or my auntie. I specifically remember the dodgy stomach one though.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2019 03:43PM

nacho libre wrote: »

So in our case it can't really be determined if it was his diet (he ate a lot of processed ham over the years) that caused his cancer. Maybe it was just "bad luck" as you put it. As he said himself, Swayze and Brian Lenihan probably had very good diets and they still got cancer. I think what you say is true, a good diet doesn't give you immunity from all types of Cancer, but would certainly significantly decrease your risk of getting some types of Cancer.

Well, Patrick Swayze, though physically fit throughout most of his life, also drank heavily for a long time but it’s not considered a strong risk factor in the development of pancreatic cancer.

Eating well will help lower your risk of developing cancer but I think many people think it will completely protect you from it and that is sadly not the case.

I remember the Happy Pear twins bouncing around some TV show, being their usual deeply irritating selves and they actual said the words ‘vegan diets prevent cancer!”. I was so pissed off, as I currently know people who are dying of cancer who were vegan or vegetarian and led active and healthy lifestyles. What a kick in the teeth for people to hear this stuff being perpetuated via high profile channels.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2019 04:15PM

DBB wrote: »

Oops, I didn't realise that you had posted a few weeks ago... He's had his operation by now! Delighted he's through it now. He must be some battler
I'm curious more than worried... I often hear people saying they didn't feel right, got it checked out, and were diagnosed with X cancer. I've always wondered what that "not feeling right" actually was. Given that pancreatic cancer is so often a "silent" but rapidly terminal diagnosis, I'm curious to know what it was that tipped your uncle off? I'd be afraid that I'd be feeling off but would just put it down to a bug, or tiredness or whatever, and not get it checked. So if the opportunity comes along that you can find out at some stage, it'd be nice to know... You never know, it might help somebody reading this thread

Well, and I just know this because I was recently reading his wikipedia entry, but the warning sign of pancreatic cancer for Michael Landon was severe abdominal pain. But who knows? Maybe he had experienced milder pain in the abdomen before that and brushed it off as many of us would.

With the cancers that are usually diagnosed late, sometimes pure luck will get them diagnosed at a really stage. A friend of my parents noticed that when he was out gardening that there was a strange rubbing sensation in his upper chest when he bent over, just something catching. He struggled to describe the sensation but went to his doctor who sent him for scans. It was stage 1 lung cancer. The location of it was fortuitous, usually people don’t get the sensation that he did and are only diagnosed when they develop a persistent cough or start coughing up blood at which point it is almost always too late. Anyway he was operated on and more than a decade later, he’s still here and there’s no sign yet of the cancer recurring.

nacho libre · 29-01-2019 12:39AM

Hammer89 wrote: »

I wonder if it's a silent cancer because it never displays any symptoms whatsoever, or because the symptoms are so minor that most people just think nothing of them at the time. But yes you're right, somebody could benefit. I'll post again when I speak to him or my auntie. I specifically remember the dodgy stomach one though.

I would be interested to know too. My father had back pain about 16 months ago- we put it down to the physical work he was doing at the time, but maybe this was one of those minor signs you spoke off. When he did get diagnosed it had already spread.

YFlyer · 29-01-2019 01:02AM

nacho libre wrote: »

Jesus. I really hope this does not happen to my mother. She had breast cancer 12 years ago. I think in my mothers case it was better she did not know, it would only have scared her, but as you say if she found out later it
would have been devastating. My father is seriously illl, his cancer can't be cured. I really could not bear my mother's cancer reoccurring on top of this.

If I ever get any serious illness I hope I get to know what it is.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-01-2019 03:02AM

nacho libre wrote: »

So in our case it can't really be determined if it was his diet (he ate a lot of processed ham over the years) that caused his cancer. Maybe it was just "bad luck" as you put it. As he said himself, Swayze and Brian Lenihan probably had very good diets and they still got cancer. I think what you say is true, a good diet doesn't give you immunity from all types of Cancer, but would certainly significantly decrease your risk of getting some types of Cancer.

I hate the blame game when it comes to cancer. You may have guessed by now that I have reason to be connected to lots of cancer patients. I do because of personal circumstances.

Many of those cancer patients I know are lung cancer patients and every single one of them has without fail at some point or another been asked by someone who has just found out they have lung cancer “Did you/Do you smoke?”. The insensitivity. Many have never smoked (up to 20% of lung cancer patients never smoked) but even if the lung cancer sufferer DID smoke, do their loved ones love them any less? Are they and their loved ones any less devastated because they might have brought it on themselves? The people who ask that stupid insensitive question would do well to remember that very few of us has led a perfect life. And I’m sure smokers who develop lung cancer are well aware that it was likely the smoking wot dun it. Why rub it in exactly?

So, yeah, maybe your father ate too much processed meat. Maybe that caused it. But then again maybe it didn’t. It doesn’t matter. Who has lived a perfect life? None of us. I hope he isn’t blaming himself. The thought of that breaks my heart.

YFlyer · 29-01-2019 03:06AM

So over 80% did.

nacho libre · 29-01-2019 03:23AM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So, yeah, maybe your father ate too much processed meat. Maybe that caused it. But then again maybe it didn’t. It doesn’t matter. Who has lived a perfect life? None of us. I hope he isn’t blaming himself. The thought of that breaks my heart.

I don 't think he is, as i indicated in my previous post. I was not seeking to play the blame game, it's natural to want to understand what caused it and to see if there was anything we could have done to prevent it. The only one I am blaming is us if we missed some thing, like the back pain he had about 16 months ago.

Andrew00 · 29-01-2019 03:33AM

They have a cure for cancer but won’t release it because it’ll be the cause of governments’ collapse and health sectors being brought to their knees.

While there’s money to be made, they won’t release the cure

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-01-2019 04:33AM

nacho libre wrote: »

I don 't think he is, as i indicated in my previous post. I was not seeking to play the blame game, it's natural to want to understand what caused it and to see if there was anything we could have done to prevent it. The only one I am blaming is us if we missed some thing, like the back pain he had about 16 months ago.

No, sorry, I wasn’t accusing you of that, my post was supposed to be supportive. I was trying to say that you’ll likely never know what caused his cancer. The most likely cause is just advancing age. For pretty much every cancer, incidence goes up with age as DNA replication mistakes and mutations become more likely as the body ages.

And a lot of doctors are reluctant to send people for scans based on non-specific symptoms such as back pain so I would not beat yourself up over it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-01-2019 04:42AM

Andrew00 wrote: »

They have a cure for cancer but won’t release it because it’ll be the cause of governments’ collapse and health sectors being brought to their knees.

While there’s money to be made, they won’t release the cure

I really wish people realised how hurtful this absolute horseshît is for terminal cancer patients to listen to.

There’s well over 100 different cancers. So, the cures for over 100 different cancer are being repressed, really? Thousands and thousands of people are able to stay quiet on that topic, are they?

Terminal cancer patients in Ireland have their treatment paid for by the HSE. It’s very, very expensive for the government to provide this service. Explain why the government would not rather see these diseases cured than fork out for the VERY expensive life-prolonging treatments? What’s the rationale there?

Martina1991 · 29-01-2019 03:01PM

Andrew00 wrote: »

They have a cure for cancer but won’t release it because it’ll be the cause of governments’ collapse and health sectors being brought to their knees.

While there’s money to be made, they won’t release the cure

Why do we have chemotherapy and radiation then? Why do a lot of people have successful cancer treatment and get the all clear?

Why would we have screening programs for early detection of cancer?

Such a stupid ignorant comment.

wakka12 · 29-01-2019 03:08PM

Andrew00 wrote: »

They have a cure for cancer but won’t release it because it’ll be the cause of governments’ collapse and health sectors being brought to their knees.

While there’s money to be made, they won’t release the cure

What a load of crap lol

Why did they release cures for so many other deadly diseases then? Why did they ever relase affordable medications for high blood pressure and diabetes? Millions would be popping their clogs in their 40's,50's and 60's, why do the government spend billions on public safety campaigns trying to encourage people to stop smoking, exercise, eat healthy,not drink alcohol, wear our seatbelts and bike helmets, buy a smoke alarm that all save thousands of lives annually?

Are all the worlds governments and medical industry(several millions people worldwide) in some kind of highly organised highly coordinated mass cover up to not release this wonder cure for hundreds of different diseases we call cancer?

I cannot believe there is actual adults who think there is a cure for cancer that 'they' da gubbernit wont 'realease', just ridiculous beyond belief

And its offensive to the millions of people who have given their whole life's work and money trying to cure this horrible and extremely complex disease

nacho libre · 29-01-2019 05:14PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

No, sorry, I wasn’t accusing you of that, my post was supposed to be supportive. I was trying to say that you’ll likely never know what caused his cancer. The most likely cause is just advancing age. For pretty much every cancer, incidence goes up with age as DNA replication mistakes and mutations become more likely as the body ages.

And a lot of doctors are reluctant to send people for scans based on non-specific symptoms such as back pain so I would not beat yourself up over it.

I'm very sorry i misunderstood your post. Thank you for the support. I appreciate it. I suppose it's human nature to go through, the should've, if only, scenario. My father is 75, so maybe it is just like you say. I try to look at it as that we were lucky to have him for so long. Some people lose a parent very young. That's just horrendous trauma for a young child to have to deal with.

Hammer89 · 31-01-2019 05:06PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

I wonder if it's a silent cancer because it never displays any symptoms whatsoever, or because the symptoms are so minor that most people just think nothing of them at the time. But yes you're right, somebody could benefit. I'll post again when I speak to him or my auntie. I specifically remember the dodgy stomach one though.

In addition to the dodgy stomach, the early signs for him were tiredness, heartburn and a sudden adverse reaction to dairy products, which might relate to the upset tummy thing.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 31-01-2019 05:21PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

In addition to the dodgy stomach, the early signs for him were tiredness, heartburn and a sudden adverse reaction to dairy products, which might relate to the upset tummy thing.

And to show how awkward the arsehole that is cancer can be, when I was diagnosed, it was very advanced but I had not experienced either of the two most common telltale signs - rapid weight loss and fatigue. I was working full-time up to three days before my diagnosis and coming home in the evening and cooking and doing lots of housework. I didn’t feel any more tired than usual. And I was a bit overweight at the time and certainly hadn’t dropped any weight in the months leading up to diagnosis.

Fatigue and rapid weight loss are two of the things doctors are looking out for when figuring out if it’s cancer and I had neither symptom, despite mine being very advanced.

Hammer89 · 31-01-2019 05:29PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And to show how awkward the arsehole that is cancer can be, when I was diagnosed, it was very advanced but I had not experienced either of the two most common telltale signs - rapid weight loss and fatigue. I was working full-time up to three days before my diagnosis and coming home in the evening and cooking and doing lots of housework. I didn’t feel any more tired than usual. And I was a bit overweight at the time and certainly hadn’t dropped any weight in the months leading up to diagnosis.

Fatigue and rapid loss are two of the things doctors are looking out for when
figuring out if it’s cancer and I had neither symptom, despite mine being very advanced.

Sorry for your troubles I hadn't realised you had cancer. He didn't have any unexplained weight loss either.

Scotty # · 31-01-2019 05:32PM

Mortality rates can vary widely from country to country. My mam died of stomach cancer a few years ago and I can remember reading at the time the mortality rate for her type and stage was something like 65% in Canada but 92% in the UK (I didn't see Irish figures). She lived 14 months after diagnoses.

You can compare country to country for breast cancer and a few others here > https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/cancer-mortality-rates

Japan is 14.3/100k compared to 28/100k in Ireland meaning you are TWICE as likely to survive breast cancer in Japan than here.

Remember that Lockerbie bomber that was sent back to Libya (to a hero's welcome!) on compassionate grounds because he was on deaths door? He lived on for years after mainly due to the drugs that were available to him in Libya that weren't available to him in Scotland.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 31-01-2019 07:29PM

Scotty # wrote: »

Mortality rates can vary widely from country to country. My mam died of stomach cancer a few years ago and I can remember reading at the time the mortality rate for her type and stage was something like 65% in Canada but 92% in the UK (I didn't see Irish figures). She lived 14 months after diagnoses.

You can compare country to country for breast cancer and a few others here > https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/cancer-mortality-rates

Japan is 14.3/100k compared to 28/100k in Ireland meaning you are TWICE as likely to survive breast cancer in Japan than here.

Remember that Lockerbie bomber that was sent back to Libya (to a hero's welcome!) on compassionate grounds because he was on deaths door? He lived on for years after mainly due to the drugs that were available to him in Libya that weren't available to him in Scotland.

But does that just mean that less people get it in Japan than in Ireland if that’s how many die per 100k of population? Incidences of different cancers vary in different parts of the world. Stomach cancer is way more common in Japan than here, I think.

In addition, the survival rate used in that link seems to be five year survival which isn’t absolute survival. For example, stage 4 breast cancer is, as of today, always terminal but around 25% of women (and men) live with it for more than five years. But they’re still going to die from it. And if you have early stage breast cancer that returns metastatic, you’ll likely go past that five year point in the stats too but it’s still terminal.

Melanoma is another one that can return and spread years after initial treatment. Actually, lots of cancers can. The five year survival stats are pretty meaningless when you dig down into them. The Lockerbie bomber is a good example. He had terminal prostate cancer. Treatment keep him alive for longer than expected but it was still always terminal. He was going to die from cancer. Palliative treatments just gave him a reprieve. And he actually still didn’t survive five years after his diagnosis date. But was it because there was better treatment in Libya than Scotland? He survived for four years which for metastatic prostate cancer isn’t that great. It’s something men can often live for a decade or more with.

Cancer - Blind Faith

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