Brexit Discussion Thread VI

downcow wrote: »

I certainly agree with you analysis of the dup and erg. Your weakness is you cannot see similar qualities across most of the political parties and certainly the remainers who feel they know more that the public.
I have tried not to respond to you raising “Anglo Irish Agreement, GFA, Flegs and Marches, not to mention the Irish Language Act”. But you have now done it several times.
Everyone of these had diverse opinions, indeed opposing positions depending on where you are looking from - valid reasons on all sides. I can clearly appreciate and respect nationalists position on these but unfortunately it seems you can only see where you are looking from with no ability to put yourself in the others shoes.
I am afraid you are applying the same limitations to your consideration of brexit

I mention the other events because they are essentially the same: notional and abstract blockages to progressing society to normality.

The unionist community lost on every single count for that reason - blocking what is best for society because they saw it as a threat to their position in the union.
It is the classic behaviour of someone who is insecure to begin with. And nobody can solve that for you.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You need to step back and reread your post from an outsider perspective.

Ireland doesn't want anything to compromise free movement between France and Ireland, therefore we won't seem to leave the EU.

Seriously, can you not see how ludicrous that post is?

You are missing my point But actually making my point at the same time. The anger you show with any mention of increased checks between you and France should help you understand why unionists get annoyed with any suggestion of increased checks on the Irish Sea. Remember we are not leaving the UK either.
Do you get it?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I mention the other events because they are essentially the same: notional and abstract blockages to progressing society to normality.

The unionist community lost on every single count for that reason - blocking what is best for society because they saw it as a threat to their position in the union.
It is the classic behaviour of someone who is insecure to begin with. And nobody can solve that for you.

I am honest unaware of which one we lost on. Maybe you could help me. Compromise and generosity is not loss.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So why fall back on the argument that you are pro Brexit because the UK voted for it.
Man up and criticise the people who are really at fault here.

You just arnt hearing me.
I was neutral
I don’t believe in referendums but there was a democratic decision to hold it
I didn’t vote
My people voted out
I am a democrat
Still neatral in that I don’t think economically in or out is going to make much difference
Backstop situation is totally unacceptable so I with the UK and leaving

You might not like it but that’s where me and many others are

downcow wrote: »

I am honest unaware of which one we lost on. Maybe you could help me. Compromise and generosity is not loss.

I don't wish to derail the thread so I will give one example and you can research the rest. Starting positions, compared to where they ended up, here is Ian Paisley's starting position on the AIA:

“Where do the terrorists operate from? From the Irish Republic, that’s where they come from. Where do the terrorists return to for sanctuary? To the Irish Republic.

“And yet Mrs. Thatcher tells us that that Republic must have some say in our province.

We say, never, never, never, never.

End position was Ian Paisley sitting in government operating an international agreement between Ireland and Great Britain to run northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't wish to derail the thread so I will give one example and you can research the rest. Starting positions, compared to where they ended up, here is Ian Paisley's starting position on the AIA:



End position was Ian Paisley sitting in government operating an international agreement between Ireland and Great Britain to run northern Ireland.

I could take the points apart but it is off topic and I will answer very briefly and then I’m not commenting again on it.
Ian Paisley (and I am not a supporter) ended up sitting in a British devolved government in norther ireland which ireland had zero power in and enjoyed watching the die hard republican abstentists become ministers in this British Parliament.
I suggest if you want enlightened then open another thread or talk to any of the disgruntled republicans
That’s me finished on that subject on this thread

downcow wrote: »

I could take the points apart but it is off topic and I will answer and then I’m not commenting again on it.
Ian Paisley (and I am not a supporter) ended up sitting in a British devolved government in norther ireland which ireland had zero power in and enjoyed watching the die hard republican abstentists become ministers in this British Parliament.
I suggest if you want enlightened then open another thread or talk to any of the disgruntled republicans
That’s me finished on that subject on this thread

I think you have adequately demonstrated the bubble of self serving justification that DUPers/some Unionists live in.
Utterly fabulous to watch. Arlene displayed some of it with her comments on there never being a hard border in Ireland.

There was a discussion on the BBC the other night on 100 years of the UUP and two of the contributors were at least honest on this ability to fool nobody but themselves on their position.
We are seeing them doing it again which will further erode unionism's strength.

Enzokk wrote: »

Edit: Anyone else seeing posts that disappear after a few minutes?

Yeah... some kind of database error that was supposedly fixed, but isn't

downcow wrote: »

Help me with this. I am genuinely confused. You keep saying there will be no more negotiating.
If we leave with no deal because we can’t accept the backstop being potentially permanent, are you seriously saying there will be no further negotiations?
Can you simply not stomache the reality that there will be an ever growing plethora of mutually beneficial agreements develop?
This is the ludicrous belief that many are stating here almost as a threat to the UK.

There are no more negotiations as long as Theresa May and the DUP still maintain their red lines. There is no sign of them changing so the negotiations are over

Bit cynical wrote: »

I don't think we have. The UK only agrees to something concerning the WA when the parliament has agreed to it since the UK Notification of Withdrawal Act of 2017:

The Prime Minister may not conclude an agreement with the European Union under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, on the terms of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union, without the approval of both Houses of Parliament.

Well, that's very lucky that she has to conclude the deal with the European Council then!

I have long said that I have been impressed with the consistent performance of our key players on Brexit. Chiefly Simon Coveney but also Leo Varadkar, (with this week showing just how much of a knife edge it is to say anything), (Micheal Martin deserves a mention also for not trying to initiate a GE). They all have performed in a manner which I think is in the countries best interests (in terms of Brexit) and which shows their ability to maintain a professional manner and not allow themselves to resort to the blather which we are seeing across the water.

The latest example of this was Helen McEntee on BBC Radio 4 this morning. She was being interviewed by John Humphrys. There were several points in the interview which it would have been easy to get emotive and to respond to his points (position) (08:58 for the pinnacle of this)with outright derision but Helen consistently remained balanced and responded in a level but forthright manner. Such interviews I think involve the interviewer trying to provoke a comment which will be used to project a weakness in the Irish or EU position and thankfully this is one more where they have failed to get what they wanted.



Let's hope no one from the BBC puts a microphone in front of a Healy-Rae and asks them what do the Irish really think of the English.

I fail to see how this thread is about anything other than the relevance of Ireland in the context of Brexit, but if the "Republic of Ireland" wishes to continue to be a State without a hard border on this island then I guess we should capitulate to our British masters.

CelticRambler wrote: »

SNIP. No more snide comments please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by downcow View Post
I am a democrat
I didn’t vote
I don’t believe in referendums

That's a funny kind of democracy ...
t.

It is quite logical
I am a democrat (i feel it necessary to specify that, as many on here seem to be happy to disregard democracy)
I didn't vote - Just emphasising that I was fairly neutral on the issue and was over in France enjoying the Euro champs (the irony :-)
I don't believe in referendums - i thought by this stage you would have got this one. We elect politicians to spend their time digesting the facts on issues like brexit at a much deeper level than we have time to and then we expect them to make the decisions and not pass the ones they don't have the balls to make back to the public to have a stab at