Brexit Discussion Thread VI

downcow · 22-01-2019 11:12AM

Skelet0n wrote: »

2 soldiers killed, 2 wounded, 2 civilians wounded.
1 PSNI officer.
MI5 informant.
5 car bombs in one day.
1 PSNI officer leg amputated after bomb under his car.
1 prison officer.
1 Garda detective.

They’re the ones listed. That’s just on the republican side.

You are being a little disingenuous. I said 2 prison officers and it turns out to be 1 prison officer and 1 psni. I have no idea who the 2 soldiers are that you are referring to. I missed the IRA/British agent who the IRA (who don't exist of course) shot for collusion. And I hadn't intended including those killed by terrorism in ROI in last decade (you seem to have missed a few there)
So what part of my estimate of 3 troubles related deaths in NI in last decade was not true.
Don't worry you don't need to apologise, rather just accept my point that to all intense and purpose the troubles are over. By the way there were about 6 psni officer killed in car accidents during the same period - just to put it in perspective

downcow · 22-01-2019 11:18AM

VinLieger wrote: »

FYPFY

Another referendum for either remain or the deal on the table, would be completely sensible and in fact was suggested by many arch bexiteers well before the refgerendum, Mogg being the prime example

So i guess you reckon we should have had a rerun of the gfa referendum when we found out there had been secret deals and lies eg Gerry Kelly and 200 other republicans had recieved secret letters to get them over the line from Tony Blair. Ironically putting their own freedom well ahead of their beloved unification

kunst nugget · 22-01-2019 11:18AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's why, when May trash talks the backstop, she talks about its potential impact on our Union if Northern Ireland is treated differently from the rest of the UK.

But isn't Northern Ireland treated differently in terms of legislation relating to issues like abortion, gay marriage, libel, employment law and corporation tax?

Hurrache · 22-01-2019 11:19AM

Some of you may have seen this, but this is a great thread. Someone went through all the EU rules 'foisted' upon the UK (as the UK voted against them) and outlined what each rule was for
.
https://twitter.com/mac_puck/status/1087360379691380736

FrancieBrady · 22-01-2019 11:24AM

downcow wrote: »

So i guess you reckon we should have had a rerun of the gfa referendum when we found out there had been secret deals and lies eg Gerry Kelly and 200 other republicans had recieved secret letters to get them over the line from Tony Blair. Ironically putting their own freedom well ahead of their beloved unification

If it was evident that a significant number of people wanted a re-run, of course you have to grant a voice to the people. It's called democracy.
BTW, we were aware deals had been done on prisoners and legacy issues. Loyalists benefited from that too. One of them, a convicted killer, went on to try and assassinate Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness at Stormont after benefiting from the deal. Nobody, that I know of, called for a re-run after that.

Zubeneschamali · 22-01-2019 11:24AM

downcow wrote: »

So i guess you reckon we should have had a rerun of the gfa referendum when we found out there had been secret deals

Opponents of the GFA are free to call for a re-run anytime they like. They won't get one because support for the GFA has gone up, not down, it'd be a waste of time.

A new referendum is not anti-democratic. If a majority still wants to Leave, they can simply vote Leave again. If a majority now wants to Remain, denying the Will of the People 2019 to railroad through the Will of the People 2016 is what is anti-democratic.

(And colossally damaging economically, politically and socially, but those are separate issues.)

Seth Brundle · 22-01-2019 11:25AM

downcow wrote: »

There is serious whataboutery going on here.
I am simply stating what i understand as facts.
ie
1)to all intense and purpose the troubles are over and the current generation will not lend its support to another murderous sectarian campaign
2) The UK voted out (regions swung both ways)
3) the vote was close both overall and in the regions and therefore we need to work hard to respect both
4) another referendum would be ridiculous. As ridiculous as it would have been for the anti GFA people to call for a new referendum eg at the time we were all watching murderers being released two years in which my have swung it the other way in the North
5) i believe most people, brexiteers included, would accept some sensible additional checks at the Irish Sea - but we need to see some compromise of sharing some checking maybe at NI border and even some at ROI France border. Current ROI position reeks of arrogace and is winding people up
6)NI cannot be in a situation where they are separated from UK with EU making the rules and no democratic representation.
Is any of that inaccurate or unreasonable?

also just to point out some differences in your perspective...

downcow wrote: »

A backstop in the Irish Sea has never been offered. That would solve dup concerns immediately I believe

downcow wrote: »

&#55357;&#56898; well I was neutral and hence didn’t vote. Couldn’t be sure which way to go. If there was a vote tomorrow I would vote leave as I feel the eu and Eire have fairly disgracefully used our hard earned peace as a bargaining chip to make brexit so painfull that UK won’t leave. I have one solution thought Agree a backstop in the Irish see exactly the same as border backstop with same conditions for removal. I think the majority could wear that. What you think?

downcow wrote: »

Exactly my point. If they say exactly the same about the Irish Sea then we are all happy. ie not border in Irish Sea. Which, they no is equally important under gfa. But they really don’t give a toss about gfa or they would be staring this clearly.

Hurrache · 22-01-2019 11:26AM

downcow wrote: »

You are being a little disingenuous. I said 2 prison officers and it turns out to be 1 prison officer and 1 psni. I have no idea who the 2 soldiers are that you are referring to. I missed the IRA/British agent who the IRA (who don't exist of course) shot for collusion. And I hadn't intended including those killed by terrorism in ROI in last decade (you seem to have missed a few there)
So what part of my estimate of 3 troubles related deaths in NI in last decade was not true.
Don't worry you don't need to apologise, rather just accept my point that to all intense and purpose the troubles are over. By the way there were about 6 psni officer killed in car accidents during the same period - just to put it in perspective

The link I posted shows all those killed or inured in attacks by terrorist groups, there's many many more than those few you're taking issue with.

Here it is again
https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?chart=fatalities&search=northern%20ireland&count=100

VinLieger · 22-01-2019 11:27AM

downcow wrote: »

'upperhand' The lady doth protest too much, me thinks lol

Yeah cus the UK's has been winning bigly all over the negotiations for the last 2 years and hasn't been made look like fools again and again..... and again

10000maniacs · 22-01-2019 11:30AM

downcow wrote: »

The thing we are angry about is that many of us took a big step and voted for gfa for peace and now we see roi supported by Europe using it for their own agenda
.

How was that a big step? You talk about the GFA like you were you were doing the world a favour by voting yes and you regret it now. You are not owed the removal of the backstop because you voted yes in the GFA.
Maybe you should have read the terms of the GFA before voting for it.
And maybe you should have read the terms of the GFA before voting for Brexit.

"The United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement"

Enzokk · 22-01-2019 11:31AM

downcow wrote: »

6)NI cannot be in a situation where they are separated from UK with EU making the rules and no democratic representation.
Is any of that inaccurate or unreasonable?

I am sure that if the UK were to propose that NI stayed within the confines of the single market and customs union permanently due to the GFA but as a condition to it they needed representation to ensure their voice is heard that it would certainly be listened to by the EU. Has this ever been offered as a choice from the UK side?

It would certainly make sense that if you are in the CU and SM that you have to have some representation. Also, it would be in the interest of Irish MEPs to have the interests of NI when new rules and regulations are debated in the EU Parliament. We are, after all, one economy in many aspects so even if NI would not have direct representation of MEPs due to Brexit I have no doubt that MEPs in Ireland would have the interests of the whole island in their minds when it comes to their representation at the EU.

The same cannot be said historically of Westminster when it comes to looking after Ireland or even Northern Ireland. That is however a discussion for another topic altogether.

prawnsambo · 22-01-2019 11:40AM

downcow wrote: »

I agree with you but it would have been very wrong to have rerun the GFA referendum before it was implimented. I agree same for EU. ther day after its implimented people can and no doubt will begin a campaign for a referendum and they are entitled to it

If it's any consolation, I don't believe there will be another referendum. (a) because it will take a long time to prepare and that time isn't available any more and (b) because it will not solve the problem the first one was supposed to fix; namely the split in the Tory party.

FreudianSlippers · 22-01-2019 11:43AM

downcow wrote: »

5) i believe most people, brexiteers included, would accept some sensible additional checks at the Irish Sea - but we need to see some compromise of sharing some checking maybe at NI border and even some at ROI France border. Current ROI position reeks of arrogace and is winding people up

Huh?

Firstly, the DUP are against that idea.
Secondly, there can't be checks between Ireland and France.

Leroy42 · 22-01-2019 11:56AM

downcow wrote: »

It was extremely difficulty for most unionists. We had suffered a 30 year sectarian campaign against us and just when the terrorists were running out of energy and support we were asked to let them save face by giving them an honourable way out. Enough of us done it to get it through. Not pleasant finding out that grinning Tony Blair had done them a deal behind everyones back. Replicate that to your gansters in Dublin and how you would feel if you had reduced their sentences etc in return for them stopping killing you because they didn't like your identity/religion existing on this Island and then finding out you priminsiter had done them other deals and lied to you about it

And brexit deals with all that how?

What benefits to NI do you see from Brexit?

demfad · 22-01-2019 12:02PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

7. So important question becomes, what is May’s Plan C? If she secures the assent of the DUP but not of the ERG, the deal will be voted down again, and at that point May has to decide whether she will hew towards crash-out Brexit, or opt for revoking Art 50 or trying for a second referendum. From here point of view these are all appalling options; but she will just has to choose which is the least appalling.

The vast majority of the Commons would vote for her deal over a crash out exit.
Believing this it is not in her interest to offer alternatives to these two options.
She has been in the Conservative party since her teens. She will not split the party by any softening.
I believe the Commons understand this. Extending A50 will not be enough.
The Commons needs to take the default off the table and give a real choice between the Negotiated deal or no Brexit.
This could mean a final defeat for May's deal with an amendment for an A50 extension for a referendum.
It could also mean that May will get the numbers as there will be only one Brexit available.

Leroy42 · 22-01-2019 12:08PM

Downcow, why are you trying to revisit the GFA and the troubles? What purpose does it have in relation to Brexit?

You didn't like it, we get it. But the majority in NI accepted it. It, despite having some serious issues, has brought stability, peace, cooperation and a normality to NI. It is a model of how to solve what appears to be an intractable problem for the rest of the world.

So, back to Brexit. What benefits are coming to NI from Brexit?

FrancieBrady · 22-01-2019 12:13PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So, back to Brexit. What benefits are coming to NI from Brexit?

The benefits are all airy fairy nebulous things. I would be interested to hear a unionist, spell out in factual terms, what they would be for northern Ireland specifically.

ancapailldorcha · 22-01-2019 12:14PM

Mod: Take the Republican-Unionist violence stuff elsewhere please. It's well off topic.

downcow · 22-01-2019 12:14PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Downcow, why are you trying to revisit the GFA and the troubles? What purpose does it have in relation to Brexit?

You didn't like it, we get it. But the majority in NI accepted it. It, despite having some serious issues, has brought stability, peace, cooperation and a normality to NI. It is a model of how to solve what appears to be an intractable problem for the rest of the world.

So, back to Brexit. What benefits are coming to NI from Brexit?

This is ironic. You can look back and you will find i have not riased the troubles. my issue is that the gfa and a threrat of conflict is being used very disingenuously by ROI and EU to keep UK in EU.
You may not agree with me but do not misrepresent what i am saying. I supported the GFA and still do but detest the cherry picking and misrepresentation of what is in it.
And i am the one saying that we are not threatened with violence in the North we are comfortable and confident that our culture is starting to find room to exist on this island

Leroy42 · 22-01-2019 12:15PM

downcow wrote: »

This is ironic. You can look back and you will find i have not riased the troubles. my issue is that the gfa and a threrat of conflict is being used very disingenuously by ROI and EU to keep UK in EU.
You may not agree with me but do not misrepresent what i am saying. I supported the GFA and still do but detest the cherry picking and misrepresentation of what is in it.
And i am the one saying that we are not threatened with violence in the North we are comfortable and confident that our culture is starting to find room to exist on this island

Grand, glad we can move on so.

So what are the benefits that you see from Brexit to NI?

Enzokk · 22-01-2019 12:19PM

downcow wrote: »

Yes lots of mis information floatinf about on this.
There has never be an amnesty. there was an early release scheme. Sorry let me correct myself - obviously there was an amnesty for 200 key IRA members but that was a sectret deal done with Tony Blair in dark rooms https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11342495/Tony-Blair-On-The-Run-letters-to-IRA-members-vital-for-Northern-Ireland-peace.html this only applied to republicans and the public and indeed the GB police when an IRA member was tried for the Hyde Park bombings and he produced his secret letter in court and the judge had to let him go.
I can understand your disbelief at how it could be done secretly and only given to one side

Thanks for the link, although I am not sure if those letters are amnesty letters as you are describing them. They are letters, according to the link you have provided, that confirm that at the moment they were not wanted but that if new evidence was found that they would be prosecuted.

Former Prime Minister Mr Blair began the peace process scheme in 2000.

It saw 95 of the so-called letters of comfort issued by the Government to suspects linked by intelligence to almost 300 murders.

They told people they were not wanted at that time, but did not rule out future prosecutions if new evidence became available.

downcow wrote: »

Are you suggesting the IRA didnt target civilians and simply because they were protestant. I doubt someone has fed you a very romantic view of a dirty sectarian campaign

You are quick to say that others are rewriting history but you should be careful that you aren't doing the same. Both sides targeted civilians and both sides were killing innocent people. There is nothing that will be gained by only pointing at the other side and playing the victim.

downcow · 22-01-2019 12:20PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The benefits are all airy fairy nebulous things. I would be interested to hear a unionist, spell out in factual terms, what they would be for northern Ireland specifically.

I have stated from early on that is was nuetral and didn't vote. So i don't think the benifits of in or out are dramatically different. Some pros and cons. I am OK with either option if we do it as UK as a whole.
If UK goes out on a fairly hard Brexit then I think we are benifitted in going also because we are so closely connected in every way and finacially supported by them. Any fear of leaving the EU can be multiplied many times when we consider leaving UK, economically, culturally,etc
does that help?

MrMusician18 · 22-01-2019 12:28PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

His boss is singing from a different hymn sheet though and, given his boss is President of the European Council (Donald Tusk), I'll take the Polish views from the horse's mouth.

His boss isn't Donald Tusk, it's Mateusz Morawiecki

FrancieBrady · 22-01-2019 12:29PM

downcow wrote: »

I have stated from early on that is was nuetral and didn't vote. So i don't think the benifits of in or out are dramatically different. Some pros and cons. I am OK with either option if we do it as UK as a whole.
If UK goes out on a fairly hard Brexit then I think we are benifitted in going also because we are so closely connected in every way and finacially supported by them. Any fear of leaving the EU can be multiplied many times when we consider leaving UK, economically, culturally,etc
does that help?

Considering you started with a self serving lie, (which allows you to sidestep when it suits you) No, that didn't help at all.
Nebulous and airy fairy benefits it still is, coming from Unionist Brexiteer family.
Perhaps you might begin dealing/countering factually with the concerns raised by the agricultural sector of your own community and proceed to the concerns of your own business community?

prawnsambo · 22-01-2019 12:30PM

downcow wrote: »

I have stated from early on that is was nuetral and didn't vote. So i don't think the benifits of in or out are dramatically different. Some pros and cons. I am OK with either option if we do it as UK as a whole.
If UK goes out on a fairly hard Brexit then I think we are benifitted in going also because we are so closely connected in every way and finacially supported by them. Any fear of leaving the EU can be multiplied many times when we consider leaving UK, economically, culturally,etc
does that help?

Do you accept that a hard brexit will hit the UK economy hard? And that currently those effects are already being felt due to the loss of value of sterling and the flow of capital out of London.

Such a hit to the UK economy would inevitably reduce the amount of money available to prop up NI.

First Up · 22-01-2019 12:36PM

downcow wrote:

This is ironic. You can look back and you will find i have not riased the troubles. my issue is that the gfa and a threrat of conflict is being used very disingenuously by ROI and EU to keep UK in EU.

I am not in a position to comment with any authority on the risk of "troubles" although I know that this is a concern to some people who know more about it than me.

I can however assure you that the EU is not using that or anything else to "keep" the UK in the EU. All it is doing is ensuring that responsibility for the consequences of the UK's departure fall where they should.

The EU has been working on its part since June 2016. The UK does not seem to have started its part.

CelticRambler · 22-01-2019 12:46PM

downcow wrote: »

I am simply stating what i understand as facts.

2) The UK voted out (regions swung both ways)
3) the vote was close both overall and in the regions and therefore we need to work hard to respect both

You're still confusing the regions (of England) with the constituent countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - something that is, unfortunately, widespread amongst the loudest Tory, UKIP and English nationalist voices.

Maybe if NI unionists could accept that their country is not part of Great Britain, they'd be more successful in keeping their own government functionning effectively, and defending their country's interests.

downcow wrote: »

5) i believe most people, brexiteers included, would accept some sensible additional checks at the Irish Sea - but we need to see some compromise of sharing some checking maybe at NI border and even some at ROI France border. Current ROI position reeks of arrogace and is winding people up

The "current ROI position" is based on written rules - rules that were written down years ago, and were available for everyone in the Leave campaign to see, read and understand. There's no arrogance or winding-up involved.

On the otherhand, there is no reason why the Republic should put itself at a considerable economic disadvantage by imposing checks on Ireland-France imports/exports simply because a subsection of the Tory party disagrees with the rest of the party.

downcow wrote: »

6)NI cannot be in a situation where they are separated from UK with EU making the rules and no democratic representation.
Is any of that inaccurate or unreasonable?

Not unreasonable, no. But when the EU came up with exactly that kind of proposal, it was trashed by ... Northern Irish unionists. Have you written to your local MP to tell them that they're not acting in accordance with your wishes?

downcow · 22-01-2019 12:48PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Do you accept that a hard brexit will hit the UK economy hard? And that currently those effects are already being felt due to the loss of value of sterling and the flow of capital out of London.

Such a hit to the UK economy would inevitably reduce the amount of money available to prop up NI.

To be really honest. here is my thoughts - uncensored
There is history which I think no of us can avoid. Some may pretend they are above it but I think it infects us deep in our thinking. and i could be wrong but my guess is that thats not just a northern problem but across the island - so much difficult history and we are all products of it.
So i don't want to rejoin ireland any more that many of you want roi to rejoin the 'kingdom'. So i suppose that is me admitting it is not all economic for me.

That said, I believe that the UK and EU and indeed UK & ROI are interdependant and stronger working together. I believe we are leaving the EU but I also believe that all parties mention firmly understand we will be better of working together and being supportive of each other.
I understand the EU need to play hard ball so as no one else considers leaving
I understand ROI need to play hard ball and use the border issue to their advantage to keep economic connections with UK
I understand NI needs to keep good solid economic connections with ROI (and more eg friends, culture, etc)
I understand UK needs to pl,ay hard ball and not just roll over to EU & ROI

That said I believe common sense will prevail at or after the 11th hour. The backstop will be watered down (or fudged) and we will all move on and build improving relationships in the years ahead. I don'r expect either poverty or the jackpot for UK or EU for that matter. I do also think ROI are in the shakiest position but trust that EU & UK will play ball and make it work in the end.

Probably setting myself up for a hammering but sure so be it

prawnsambo · 22-01-2019 12:51PM

First Up wrote: »

I can however assure you that the EU is not using that or anything else to "keep" the UK in the EU. All it is doing is ensuring that responsibility for the consequences of the UK's departure fall where they should.

This (the border issue) was brought up before, during and after the referendum by British politicians on both sides of the debate and whom I quoted on the previous page.

I even quoted Nigel Farage replying to a group of NI businessmen who posed the question to him in a meeting he held with them during the campaign. So the issue of the border was front and centre in the debate in NI during the campaign and was a constant every time a westminster politician went to NI while on the campaign trail.

So the contention that this is an invention by the EU/Ireland is demonstrably untrue. It was always an issue and was identified by people north of the border as an issue when the whole sorry mess started off.

downcow · 22-01-2019 12:56PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

You're still confusing the regions (of England) with the constituent countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - something that is, unfortunately, widespread amongst the loudest Tory, UKIP and English nationalist voices.

Maybe if NI unionists could accept that their country is not part of Great Britain, they'd be more successful in keeping their own government functionning effectively, and defending their country's interests.

On the otherhand, there is no reason why the Republic should put itself at a considerable economic disadvantage by imposing checks on Ireland-France imports/exports simply because a subsection of the Tory party disagrees with the rest of the party.

GB is not a country anf there is no international border between NI and GB. I havent checked but i am pretty sure the two nations on the islands recognised by the UN are ROI and UK of GB & NI. and some of you are reading far to much into a name - the nation of the UK was formed by bringing together GB & NI and that is recognised in the name - I really like it that way and would hate to see that bit of history erased

and your second point is the arrogant bit that you need to let go of and i have no doubt you will at the 11th hour - you will need to work with us and not cut off your nose to spite your face (and i don't mean you personally - i mean your nation)

Brexit Discussion Thread VI

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