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What is China up to?

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  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tell me how wrote: »
    So why the full page ad in an Irish newspaper?
    Maybe it was no more than the Chinese embassy exhausting their budget before the year end. :)

    Big Chinese investment coming to Dundalk in the next few years. Around 400 jobs and representatives have already been into DKIT talking to students about working there. Weird ad, but trying to sell themselves to the population would be a possibility?


  • #33
    sandbelter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 233 ✭✭sandbelter


    Tell me how wrote: »
    So why the full page ad in an Irish newspaper?
    Maybe it was no more than the Chinese embassy exhausting their budget before the year end. :)

    There's also an element they are positioning post Brexit. With the UK off the premises the perception outside of Europe is there is greater potential for EU and US divisions, especially over security.


    In short, in a world where the US and China are going head to head, Europe is seen as being in play.

    I note that similar add appeared elsewhere in the EU.

    In the latest posturing in the pacific, the US has permanently deployed B2 bombers to Hawaii.


  • #34
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    sandbelter wrote: »

    I think conflict is near with China, much nearer that any Europeans (except the Russians) understand. Xi is actively positioning himself along side Mao (absorbed Tibet) and Deng (absorbed Hong Kong and Macau) by giving a 2020 ultimatum for reunification to Taiwan. Taiwan is no mood to unify with China, the Chinese arrived in Taiwan after the Dutch settled South Africa and occupied Taiwan. the Taiwanese feel the same about the Chinese as the Irish feel about incorporating into the UK.


    Not a promising outlook.

    Hong Kong was returned to China when the original lease expired and negotiations to return Macau were commenced by Portugal after the fall of the Fascist Salazar regime in 1974. Both territories were relics of colonialism. To present their negotiated return to mainland Chinese authority as some ominous symbol of China warmongering is crazy.


  • #35
    sandbelter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 233 ✭✭sandbelter


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    Both territories were relics of colonialism. To present their negotiated return to mainland Chinese authority as some ominous symbol of China warmongering is crazy.

    the point I was trying to make is that strong Chinese leaders are seen as returning parts of China either by force (Tibet) or negotiation (Hong Kong) that are historically seen as part of China. That's the internal benchmark Xi will be judged against by the Central Bureau.

    The new territories were leased, Hong Kong itself was a colony. There was no obligation on the UK to return it and it was financial self sufficient.

    For the record the real legacy of colonialism in Asia is Siberia and the Russian Far East.


  • #36
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    sandbelter wrote: »
    the point I was trying to make is that strong Chinese leaders are seen as returning parts of China either by force (Tibet) or negotiation (Hong Kong) that are historically seen as part of China. That's the internal benchmark Xi will be judged against by the Central Bureau.

    The new territories were leased, Hong Kong itself was a colony. There was no obligation on the UK to return it and it was financial self sufficient.

    For the record the real legacy of colonialism in Asia is Siberia and the Russian Far East.

    Fair enough, and I don't disagree that Irredentism is a strong force in China. I just can't place the peaceful transfer of Hong Kong and Macau's sovereignty on a par with the annexation of Tibet. For comparison India seized Goa by force in the 1960s yet generally isn't seen as an expansionist threat to the international order.

    I'm not convinced that the Chinese will invade Taiwan any time soon either. They lack an amphibious fleet of the scale required, American response is a genuine risk, reducing Taiwan's defences will take time, the economic disruption would be considerable at a global level and far greater for China itself. I wouldn't rule out an opportunistic grab in the right circumstances but a rigid plan to have successfully invaded Taiwan by a certain year seems unlikely.


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  • #37
    sandbelter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 233 ✭✭sandbelter


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    I'm not convinced that the Chinese will invade Taiwan any time soon either.

    I hope not and I'm still putting faith in the idea that they are sun Tzu's disciples and won't do anything rash, but there's way too much war talk in Beijing atm, last time we witnessed this kind of bellicose language and hysteria was in Washington in the early 2000's and we all know what happened then.


  • #38
    theguzman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭theguzman


    China needs external enemies to deflect public attention away from the Debt crisis within China and unite the people behind the current Chinese leadership.


  • #39
    Spannerplank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 167 ✭✭Spannerplank


    theguzman wrote: »
    As China develops and their middle class grows it is increasingly getting harder to get slave labour for $50 - $100 per month, this is part of their pivot towards africa and in 30 years time "Made in Nigeria" or Kenya etc. will be the standard for tat.

    They are using Infrastructure based debt to effectively colonise and control large parts of Africa, and taking control of strategic assets, and opening new trade routes to extract raw materials and import manufactured goods from China. Africa in return is getting some proper infrastructure for a change and since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

    Anybody who has the arrogance to aannounce that Africans are incapable of self governance and are better off under foreign occupation really has no clue.


  • #40
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    theguzman wrote: »
    As China develops and their middle class grows it is increasingly getting harder to get slave labour for $50 - $100 per month, this is part of their pivot towards africa and in 30 years time "Made in Nigeria" or Kenya etc. will be the standard for tat.

    They are using Infrastructure based debt to effectively colonise and control large parts of Africa, and taking control of strategic assets, and opening new trade routes to extract raw materials and import manufactured goods from China. Africa in return is getting some proper infrastructure for a change and since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

    Africa is a continent. It has 50 plus countries. Also We weren't much of a prize pig ourselves in 2011. Add to that NGOs, Mining companies and Bono having their way with some of them, it's a wonder any of them, (the poorer ones) get the chance to try make a go of it.
    Sounds like more of the same from China TBH.


  • #41
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Africa is a continent. It has 50 plus countries. Also We weren't much of a prize pig ourselves in 2011. Add to that NGOs, Mining companies and Bono having their way with some of them, it's a wonder any of them, (the poorer ones) get the chance to try make a go of it.
    Sounds like more of the same from China TBH.

    From the 50 plus countries which would you highlight as particularly well run, clue - I don't think SA is going to make the list. As compared to 2011 Ireland, there's still no comparison worthy of serious debate.

    No idea what you mean 're Bono .


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  • #42
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    From the 50 plus countries which would you highlight as particularly well run, clue - I don't think SA is going to make the list. As compared to 2011 Ireland, there's still no comparison worthy of serious debate.

    No idea what you mean 're Bono .

    Simply pointing out that Africa isn't a country. It's not very detailed to talk about Libya, Tunisia and Gambia like they are interchangeable.

    Having a pop at Bono. The NOGs and mining companies have a major role to play for the running of some areas. It's too simplistic to state 'they (Africa) are completely incapable of governing themselves'. And I pointed out we all have our flaws when it comes to running our affairs.
    Then I said I didn't think China was going to do much more than what serves it's own purposes with what ever region they set up shop in. Fair enough?


  • #43
    Spannerplank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 167 ✭✭Spannerplank


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    From the 50 plus countries which would you highlight as particularly well run, clue - I don't think SA is going to make the list. As compared to 2011 Ireland, there's still no comparison worthy of serious debate.

    No idea what you mean 're Bono .

    Well run? Are you serious?
    How can they be well run when they are still under the jackboot of colonial intervention and the IMF?

    Are you aware that nearly every country in Western Africa is under the control of the French Central Bank? Their currency, their economy, their interest rates? They have to deposit their reserves in French banks and if they want any of it to use, it's LOANED to them? Their own money!

    Are you aware of that? Of course not. You just think that Africans can't muster the brains to grow a potato or milk a cow.

    Oh and just so nobody comp!ains, the French Foreign Legion are holed up locally to "politely" dissuade any grumbling.


  • #44
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Then I said I didn't think China was going to do much more than what serves it's own purposes with what ever region they set up shop in. Fair enough?

    Ah, yeah. Hard to see how long term good will come of that.


  • #45
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Spannerplank wrote: »
    Well run? Are you serious?
    How can they be well run when they are still under the jackboot of colonial intervention and the IMF?

    Are you aware that nearly every country in Western Africa is under the control of the French Central Bank? Their currency, their economy, their interest rates? They have to deposit their reserves in French banks and if they want any of it to use, it's LOANED to them? Their own money!

    Are you aware of that? Of course not. You just think that Africans can't muster the brains to grow a potato or milk a cow.

    Oh and just so nobody comp!ains, the French Foreign Legion are holed up locally to "politely" dissuade any grumbling.

    Not sure what point you're trying to make. Well run? Who said that?


  • #46
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Ah, yeah. Hard to see how long term good will come of that.

    Exactly. It's not like they'll set up a functioning democracy now will they? They'll have a nice little corrupt legislative body of their choosing on the take. That will be a fresh new thing for the area I'm sure.
    China have a great rep all the same...


  • #47
    Spannerplank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 167 ✭✭Spannerplank


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Not sure what point you're trying to make. Well run? Who said that?

    You did.


  • #48
    sandbelter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 233 ✭✭sandbelter


    Spannerplank wrote: »
    Well run? Are you serious?
    How can they be well run when they are still under the jackboot of colonial intervention and the IMF?

    I grew up in Zambia.... outside Lusaka to be precise, and I've heard the what-did-the-West-ever-do-besides-exploit-us part, followed by a version of the China-has-always-been-our-friend speech more times than I'd care to talk about.

    This the Zambian perspective:

    https://www.zambiawatchdog.com/zambia-veering-toward-chinese-model-oppression/

    Zambia didn't decolonialise just to replace one master with another.


  • #49
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    An interesting example of Chinese companies looking to buy up potentially strategic dual use infrastructure. This time it's the Subic bay port facility, until 1992 one of the US Navy's biggest bases in the Pacific.

    https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/01/16/chinese-companies-have-their-eyes-on-what-used-to-be-the-us-navys-biggest-base-in-the-pacific/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Socialflow+NAV


  • #50
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Spannerplank wrote: »
    You did.

    Can you quote where I said that?


  • #51
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Can you quote where I said that?

    You piggy backed in on another post saying:
    theguzman wrote: »
    ...since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.
    I disagreed pointing out there were 50 plus countries on the continent that weren't interchangeable and you came in with...
    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    From the 50 plus countries which would you highlight as particularly well run, clue - I don't think SA is going to make the list. As compared to 2011 Ireland, there's still no comparison worthy of serious debate.

    No idea what you mean 're Bono .

    Now that reads like you agreed with the other poster but if you didn't you weren't very clear.


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  • #52
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    You piggy backed in on another post saying:


    I disagreed pointing out there were 50 plus countries on the continent that weren't interchangeable and you came in with...



    Now that reads like you agreed with the other poster but if you didn't you weren't very clear.

    There's certainly confusion.

    Spannerplank got all excited saying I thought Ireland in 2011 was well run. It clearly wasn't but, also as clear (it should be) is that it was still far better run than most if not all African countries.

    Nobody as far as I can see has chipped in with any African country they think is well run. However, I totally agree with the assertion that allowing themselves to come under the influence of China is a bad idea, but they are so badly run (corrupt) it's easy pickings for the Chinese.


  • #53
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    There's certainly confusion.

    Spannerplank got all excited saying I thought Ireland in 2011 was well run. It clearly wasn't but, also as clear (it should be) is that it was still far better run than most if not all African countries.

    Nobody as far as I can see has chipped in with any African country they think is well run. However, I totally agree with the assertion that allowing themselves to come under the influence of China is a bad idea, but they are so badly run (corrupt) it's easy pickings for the Chinese.

    The suggestion was made that Africa would be better off under colonialism, in this case china as they are incapable of running their own affairs.
    Do you think a regime such as China's is a good thing, treats it's own people well and do you think they'd have the interests of the indigenous peoples over their own profits? Exactly what would be better? Seems to me they'd be switching one corporate concern or overlord for another.


  • #54
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Read my last post Matt, it answers your question.

    And if you wanted to keep the conversation to China you shouldn't have interjected a poor comparison re Ireland.


  • #55
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Read my last post Matt, it answers your question.

    And if you wanted to keep the conversation to China you shouldn't have interjected a poor comparison re Ireland.

    Nope I never made a comparison. I mentioned Ireland because we're Irish and that we all have issues running our countries. I never compared Ireland to any country in fact. It is and was about China 'investing' in regions of Africa. I'll leave your post for the ages thanks.


  • #56
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Nope I never made a comparison. I mentioned Ireland because we're Irish and that we all have issues running our countries. I never compared Ireland to any country in fact. It is and was about China 'investing' in regions of Africa. I'll leave your post for the ages thanks.

    :rolleyes:


  • #57
    Spannerplank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 167 ✭✭Spannerplank


    theguzman wrote: »
    China needs external enemies to deflect public attention away from the Debt crisis within China and unite the people behind the current Chinese leadership.

    Could you elaborate on this debt crisis? I'm just curious.


  • #58
    Spannerplank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 167 ✭✭Spannerplank


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Can you quote where I said that?

    Post 41.

    Shall I count the words for you?


  • #59
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,026 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Tell you one thing the Chinese are not up to.

    They're not reading this thread thinking we've figured them out.


  • #60
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Spannerplank wrote: »
    Post 41.

    Shall I count the words for you?

    I'm just going to assume English is not your first language, that would at least explain it. Not sure if I can be accused of feeding, so I'm going to leave it there.


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  • #61
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Spannerplank wrote: »
    Could you elaborate on this debt crisis? I'm just curious.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-debt-crisis-6-trillion-off-balance-sheet-debt-poses-titanic-risk-2018-10?r=US&IR=T

    Oh, and add this for good measure...

    https://www.businessinsider.com/these-chinese-cities-are-ghost-towns-2017-4?r=US&IR=T

    That's Ghost cities


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