1 Family, 40 Claims, Over EUR1m Awarded - How can we stop Ireland's claims culture?

Insurance companies in Ireland would rather pay out on a claim under a certain amount, than fight it in court.

There was a solicitor on the radio last week saying that the above doesn't happen; "if the insurance company knows they'll win in court, then they'll get their costs back, so of course they'll fight it. The suggestion that they pay out anyway is preposterous".

When this is not true. Because even if the insurance company win in court and get a €5k award for costs against Michael Cash, they won't see a single cent of that award. Michael Cash will disappear into the ether. And the insurance company are left holding the bill.

So instead, the insurance company give Michael €3k to go away.

Not even that, a judge is more likely to give an award regardless of how spurious something is. In the example above, the judge awarded the guy €1,500 to save him from a having costs awarded against him.

So at the root of the issue is a court system which is stacked against insurance companies - even when they win, they lose.

Ultimately the only way around this is a separate judicial claims process. One where costs are not a factor; i.e. everyone pays their own legal costs regardless of the outcome. Any disputed claim up to €50k goes into this system, the mediator can award the amount requested by the plaintiff *or* the amount suggested by the defendant or nothing. They cannot award an arbitrary amount.

This means that you can go into this system, but if you try to inflate your losses, you risk leaving with nothing. Or if you try to massively play down your liabilities, you risk paying way more.
If you have a genuine dispute and a genuine case, you have nothing to fear.

Claims over €50k go into the normal court system, who are not permitted to make awards of less than €50k. The court can recommend an award under €50k, but cannot enforce it. The award goes back into the claims procedure to be approved. Or the defendant can volunteer to pay it.

The big awards aren't killing us here in Ireland. It's the volume of small awards that are paid out.

Even look at the family in the OP. €1m over 8 years is €125,000 per year. If we assume 10 people in this family, then it's an average of €12,500 per person per year. Which is not a lot. And that's just what they've claimed, it's not what they've been awards. These people aren't creaming it.

But multiply this by 100, and it's death by a thousand cuts. A small claim is per euro more expensive than a big one. That is, €1m in 40 claims costs many times more than a single €1m claim.

We need to stop worrying about the size of payouts and more about the volumes of them and the willingness of insurance companies to settle without resistance.

seamus wrote: »

These people aren't creaming it.

Define creaming?

seamus wrote: »

Ivory backscratchers.

Don't get me wrong, if someone handed me €12.5k tax free every year I wouldn't throw it back in their face.

But if I had to go to the trouble of staging an accident, going to doctors, going to court, etc, then I would quickly decide that it's not worth the hassle.

Perhaps you have a job, that can take up a lot of time and energy. Leaves you with less time for scheming and fraud.

seamus wrote: »

Insurance companies in Ireland would rather pay out on a claim under a certain amount, than fight it in court.

There was a solicitor on the radio last week saying that the above doesn't happen; "if the insurance company knows they'll win in court, then they'll get their costs back, so of course they'll fight it. The suggestion that they pay out anyway is preposterous".

When this is not true. Because even if the insurance company win in court and get a €5k award for costs against Michael Cash, they won't see a single cent of that award. Michael Cash will disappear into the ether. And the insurance company are left holding the bill.

So instead, the insurance company give Michael €3k to go away.

Not even that, a judge is more likely to give an award regardless of how spurious something is. In the example above, the judge awarded the guy €1,500 to save him from a having costs awarded against him.

So at the root of the issue is a court system which is stacked against insurance companies - even when they win, they lose.

Ultimately the only way around this is a separate judicial claims process. One where costs are not a factor; i.e. everyone pays their own legal costs regardless of the outcome. Any disputed claim up to €50k goes into this system, the mediator can award the amount requested by the plaintiff *or* the amount suggested by the defendant or nothing. They cannot award an arbitrary amount.

This means that you can go into this system, but if you try to inflate your losses, you risk leaving with nothing. Or if you try to massively play down your liabilities, you risk paying way more.
If you have a genuine dispute and a genuine case, you have nothing to fear.

Claims over €50k go into the normal court system, who are not permitted to make awards of less than €50k. The court can recommend an award under €50k, but cannot enforce it. The award goes back into the claims procedure to be approved. Or the defendant can volunteer to pay it.

The big awards aren't killing us here in Ireland. It's the volume of small awards that are paid out.

Even look at the family in the OP. €1m over 8 years is €125,000 per year. If we assume 10 people in this family, then it's an average of €12,500 per person per year. Which is not a lot. And that's just what they've claimed, it's not what they've been awards. These people aren't creaming it.

But multiply this by 100, and it's death by a thousand cuts. A small claim is per euro more expensive than a big one. That is, €1m in 40 claims costs many times more than a single €1m claim.

We need to stop worrying about the size of payouts and more about the volumes of them and the willingness of insurance companies to settle without resistance.

Majority of personal injury claims do settle either the Claimant and Respondent accepting the Injuries Board assessment or once proceedings issue 'on the steps' so to speak - they settle because there is liability against the defendant - as much as this upsets people that people are getting compensated for injuries suffered at someone elses negligence

Ins companies will and do defend claims if they feel they have a full defence or there are more than one defendant and they cant agree liability

the 1.5k award you mention does not absolve the Plaintiff from a costs Order because it is below the Circuit Court jurisdiction of 15k - costs order was made against that Plaintiff


The "separate judicial claims process" you mention already exists in the guise of the Injuries Board - set up after intense lobbying of the insurance industry

And costs should always be borne by the unsuccessful party - it is not appropriate at all that successful Plaintiffs pay their own costs (as the Injuries Board provides) - that is and should always be the responsibility of the wrongdoer

Either we are a nation of racists, or travellers cause a hugely disproportionate amount of trouble.

Maybe a show of hands???:D


Little of Column A and a little of Column B if boards is anything to go by.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There are 2 possibilities I see sheep -

Either we are a nation of racists, or travellers cause a hugely disproportionate amount of trouble.

Maybe a show of hands???:D

Don't think we're a nation of racists at all, just most of the people who post on here are.

Aegir wrote: »

I understand that, what amazed was that we ended up settling for more than our Barrister was asking, which seemed odd. It was almost as if the defending barrister was on a % of the final award as well.

I think you're reading too much into it tbh. Judges award fairly high here, that's a given when compared to other EU countries. I expect the defence barrister simply knew what was going to be acceptable to the Judge.

I see sheep wrote: »

Don't think we're a nation of racists at all, just most of the people who post on here are.

Racist because they have a problem with the fact that a serious disproportionate amount of travellers are criminals? Despite having everything they need given to them by the rest of society?

Since when is it racist to state the bloody obvious?

I grew up near two traveller families, within 5 miles of where I lived. One had a single mother (father in prison, manslaughter) in charge of 7. The other family was about 6 off-shoots of the same family. The single mother and them were cousins.

The single mother got a house in the village, and promptly made the most of it. She forced her kids to go to school every day by walking them to it, got them involved in the local sports teams and always invited the kids class mates around for birthday parties. Always let it be known that if anyone needed a lift into town she'd be going after school. And this is a woman who by her own admission had no education or job experience. Try as she might, the two eldest lads, who were in their teens when they first arrived, were nothing but trouble, but the rest of them turned out fine, the 3 youngest went to college and got qualifications, while another one works as a child minder.

The other family, and the two eldest of the single mother it has to be said, were a different story altogether. Constant trouble, constantly robbing the shops, sulky racing, assaults, kids never in school, always thieving, well known for organising dog fights and stealing dogs, most of them (including the women) have done jail for drugs, burglaries or assaults. The women often walking around with cuts and bruises, it was ridiculous the amount of beatings they took. And to top it off, every one of them were as ignorant as you could get to other people. This was, and is constant, since I was knee high to a grasshopper.

The point is travellers are by and large for most people nothing but trouble, but that there's absolutely nothing stopping them from doing better for themselves. The massive problem is that they actually have to want to better for themselves, but when you have a attitude where every criminal act is excused as culture, every criticism is racism and that you're entitled to whatever you want regardless of the rest of society while at the same demanding anything and everything, it's little wonder people get fed over it.

And seeing what they can do if they put their mind to it like the single mother, it makes you even more pissed off with the way they carry on. People are literally fed up with them at this stage because it's the travellers own ignorance that's the problem. And it isn't racist to point that out. More so, it should be pointed out and exposed for what it is.

mcmoustache wrote: »

Were you not banned yesterday or the day before for spouting nonsense?

I only signed up yesterday so no sorry.

The first step is to remove any cash payout for whiplash, instead replace it with redeemable physio sessions. I wonder how quickly the reports of whiplash would fall?