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1 Family, 40 Claims, Over EUR1m Awarded - How can we stop Ireland's claims culture?

el Fenomeno

I was just reading the below article:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/just-one-family-behind-40-personal-injury-claims-worth-over-1m-37720550.html

Click for the full piece, but the jist of it is that members of one British family have been behind 40 personal injury claims (brought as a result of 15 separate accidents) in the UK and Ireland since 2007, and have been awarded over €1m from these claims in total.

In particular, they've been travelling to Ireland every year since 2005 and - as bad luck would have it - have been involved in an accident here on every trip.

The Independent are full of these stories - there's a new one every day. Yesterday it was a guy in a Spar who - when moving out of the way for a member of staff who was running - hit his ankle off of a shelf. He left the shop and claimed when he got home he lost consciousness. Thankfully, the judge threw out his claim for €60,000 but did award him €1,500 in any case.

The day before, it was a woman who went rollerskating and tripped over a child's leg and fractured her thumb while also suffering whiplash. She was off work for a week, but no doubt felt better after a judge awarded her €25k.

I'm aware these stories are being reported more and more because they're pretty easy click-generators - fools like me can't help but read them so they can be outraged. But there is a rampant claims culture here. Are these payouts calculated based on precedent, or how are they calculated?

These are ridiculous sums of money. I have genuine sympathy for people who are injured and who's lives are impacted and changed as a result. But when it's so obvious that so many people are exaggerating their claims to get awarded fat payouts, what can be done about it?

You'd feel sick working your arse off to save for a mortgage deposit when some cheat can easily exaggerate some whiplash and be handed theirs by a judge.

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tretorn

The awards are too high which makes it worth solicitors time taking these cases on a no win no fees case.

The awards are four times higher here for whiplash than they are in the UK.

The Maximum award for damages for bad practice resulting in a bad medical outcome in the Netherlands is 595,000 euros, the sky is the limit here and at the end of the day these awards have to be funded by someone, the money doesnt come from some magic tree.

Roger Hassenforder

el Fenomeno wrote: »

... the jist of it is that members of one British family have been behind 40 personal injury claims (brought as a result of 15 separate accidents) in the UK and Ireland since 2007, and have been awarded over €1m from these claims in total.

In particular, they've been travelling to Ireland every year since 2005....

*arches eyebrow

seamus

Insurance companies in Ireland would rather pay out on a claim under a certain amount, than fight it in court.

There was a solicitor on the radio last week saying that the above doesn't happen; "if the insurance company knows they'll win in court, then they'll get their costs back, so of course they'll fight it. The suggestion that they pay out anyway is preposterous".

When this is not true. Because even if the insurance company win in court and get a €5k award for costs against Michael Cash, they won't see a single cent of that award. Michael Cash will disappear into the ether. And the insurance company are left holding the bill.

So instead, the insurance company give Michael €3k to go away.

Not even that, a judge is more likely to give an award regardless of how spurious something is. In the example above, the judge awarded the guy €1,500 to save him from a having costs awarded against him.

So at the root of the issue is a court system which is stacked against insurance companies - even when they win, they lose.

Ultimately the only way around this is a separate judicial claims process. One where costs are not a factor; i.e. everyone pays their own legal costs regardless of the outcome. Any disputed claim up to €50k goes into this system, the mediator can award the amount requested by the plaintiff *or* the amount suggested by the defendant or nothing. They cannot award an arbitrary amount.

This means that you can go into this system, but if you try to inflate your losses, you risk leaving with nothing. Or if you try to massively play down your liabilities, you risk paying way more.
If you have a genuine dispute and a genuine case, you have nothing to fear.

Claims over €50k go into the normal court system, who are not permitted to make awards of less than €50k. The court can recommend an award under €50k, but cannot enforce it. The award goes back into the claims procedure to be approved. Or the defendant can volunteer to pay it.

The big awards aren't killing us here in Ireland. It's the volume of small awards that are paid out.

Even look at the family in the OP. €1m over 8 years is €125,000 per year. If we assume 10 people in this family, then it's an average of €12,500 per person per year. Which is not a lot. And that's just what they've claimed, it's not what they've been awards. These people aren't creaming it.

But multiply this by 100, and it's death by a thousand cuts. A small claim is per euro more expensive than a big one. That is, €1m in 40 claims costs many times more than a single €1m claim.

We need to stop worrying about the size of payouts and more about the volumes of them and the willingness of insurance companies to settle without resistance.

I see sheep

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

*arches eyebrow

There's already 3!! threads on the first page of this forum abusing travellers, do you go into every thread and try to link it to travellers?

What's your obsession?

Do a traveller girl you fancied shoot you down when you were a young lad and now you spend your life obsessed with them?

PCeeeee

seamus wrote: »

These people aren't creaming it.

Define creaming?

[Deleted User]

I see sheep wrote: »

There's already 3!! threads on the first page of this forum abusing travellers, do you go into every thread and try to link it to travellers?

What's your obsession?

Do a traveller girl you fancied shoot you down when you were a young lad and now you spend your life obsessed with them?

You're seeing pink elephants.

Roger Hassenforder

I see sheep wrote: »

There's already 3!! threads on the first page of this forum abusing travellers, do you go into every thread and try to link it to travellers?

What's your obsession?

Do a traveller girl you fancied shoot you down when you were a young lad and now you spend your life obsessed with them?

I've a tic

seamus

PCeeeee wrote: »

Define creaming?

Ivory backscratchers.

Don't get me wrong, if someone handed me €12.5k tax free every year I wouldn't throw it back in their face.

But if I had to go to the trouble of staging an accident, going to doctors, going to court, etc, then I would quickly decide that it's not worth the hassle.

PCeeeee

seamus wrote: »

Ivory backscratchers.

Don't get me wrong, if someone handed me €12.5k tax free every year I wouldn't throw it back in their face.

But if I had to go to the trouble of staging an accident, going to doctors, going to court, etc, then I would quickly decide that it's not worth the hassle.

Perhaps you have a job, that can take up a lot of time and energy. Leaves you with less time for scheming and fraud.

razorblunt

I see sheep wrote: »

There's already 3!! threads on the first page of this forum abusing travellers, do you go into every thread and try to link it to travellers?

What's your obsession?

Do a traveller girl you fancied shoot you down when you were a young lad and now you spend your life obsessed with them?

Are you implying they have guns?

[Deleted User]

There are some bizarre going ons with the court service.

I was involved in a car crash a few years back, a driver went through a red light and hit us at around 50Kmh. He denied responsibility so his insurance wouldn't pay out. My only route was to get a lawyer involved and when you do this, it tends to grow legs and get bigger and bigger.

Anyway, we settled for the car and injuries to myself and my wife (I got about €8k, she got about €25k), but we had to go to court for our child's because the award has to be approved by a judge.

The initial offer was €1k, which the judge laughed at and told the two barristers to go away and agree a figure. I suggested €3k, my Barrister said he would go for €5k, but was ok to agree with my suggestion as a back stop.

Our daughter was given €8.5k

Samuel T. Cogley

Aegir wrote: »

There are some bizarre going ons with the court service.

I was involved in a car crash a few years back, a driver went through a red light and hit us at around 50Kmh. He denied responsibility so his insurance wouldn't pay out. My only route was to get a lawyer involved and when you do this, it tends to grow legs and get bigger and bigger.

Anyway, we settled for the car and injuries to myself and my wife (I got about €8k, she got about €25k), but we had to go to court for our child's because the award has to be approved by a judge.

The initial offer was €1k, which the judge laughed at and told the two barristers to go away and agree a figure. I suggested €3k, my Barrister said he would go for €5k, but was ok to agree with my suggestion as a back stop.

Our daughter was given €8.5k

While I'm sure you're the best parents in the world the court is there to make sure parents don't get side tracked by a few grand and the child is awarded proper compensation for their injuries.

McCrack

seamus wrote: »

Insurance companies in Ireland would rather pay out on a claim under a certain amount, than fight it in court.

There was a solicitor on the radio last week saying that the above doesn't happen; "if the insurance company knows they'll win in court, then they'll get their costs back, so of course they'll fight it. The suggestion that they pay out anyway is preposterous".

When this is not true. Because even if the insurance company win in court and get a €5k award for costs against Michael Cash, they won't see a single cent of that award. Michael Cash will disappear into the ether. And the insurance company are left holding the bill.

So instead, the insurance company give Michael €3k to go away.

Not even that, a judge is more likely to give an award regardless of how spurious something is. In the example above, the judge awarded the guy €1,500 to save him from a having costs awarded against him.

So at the root of the issue is a court system which is stacked against insurance companies - even when they win, they lose.

Ultimately the only way around this is a separate judicial claims process. One where costs are not a factor; i.e. everyone pays their own legal costs regardless of the outcome. Any disputed claim up to €50k goes into this system, the mediator can award the amount requested by the plaintiff *or* the amount suggested by the defendant or nothing. They cannot award an arbitrary amount.

This means that you can go into this system, but if you try to inflate your losses, you risk leaving with nothing. Or if you try to massively play down your liabilities, you risk paying way more.
If you have a genuine dispute and a genuine case, you have nothing to fear.

Claims over €50k go into the normal court system, who are not permitted to make awards of less than €50k. The court can recommend an award under €50k, but cannot enforce it. The award goes back into the claims procedure to be approved. Or the defendant can volunteer to pay it.

The big awards aren't killing us here in Ireland. It's the volume of small awards that are paid out.

Even look at the family in the OP. €1m over 8 years is €125,000 per year. If we assume 10 people in this family, then it's an average of €12,500 per person per year. Which is not a lot. And that's just what they've claimed, it's not what they've been awards. These people aren't creaming it.

But multiply this by 100, and it's death by a thousand cuts. A small claim is per euro more expensive than a big one. That is, €1m in 40 claims costs many times more than a single €1m claim.

We need to stop worrying about the size of payouts and more about the volumes of them and the willingness of insurance companies to settle without resistance.

Majority of personal injury claims do settle either the Claimant and Respondent accepting the Injuries Board assessment or once proceedings issue 'on the steps' so to speak - they settle because there is liability against the defendant - as much as this upsets people that people are getting compensated for injuries suffered at someone elses negligence

Ins companies will and do defend claims if they feel they have a full defence or there are more than one defendant and they cant agree liability

the 1.5k award you mention does not absolve the Plaintiff from a costs Order because it is below the Circuit Court jurisdiction of 15k - costs order was made against that Plaintiff

The "separate judicial claims process" you mention already exists in the guise of the Injuries Board - set up after intense lobbying of the insurance industry

And costs should always be borne by the unsuccessful party - it is not appropriate at all that successful Plaintiffs pay their own costs (as the Injuries Board provides) - that is and should always be the responsibility of the wrongdoer

sbsquarepants

I see sheep wrote: »

There's already 3!! threads on the first page of this forum abusing travellers,

There are 2 possibilities I see sheep -

Either we are a nation of racists, or travellers cause a hugely disproportionate amount of trouble.

Maybe a show of hands???:D

Samuel T. Cogley

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There are 2 possibilities I see sheep -

Either we are a nation of racists, or travellers cause a hugely disproportionate amount of trouble.

Maybe a show of hands???:D

Little of Column A and a little of Column B if boards is anything to go by.

Roger Hassenforder

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There are 2 possibilities I see sheep -

Either we are a nation of racists, or travellers cause a hugely disproportionate amount of trouble.

Maybe a show of hands???:D

But they're not mutually exclusive....

I see sheep

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There are 2 possibilities I see sheep -

Either we are a nation of racists, or travellers cause a hugely disproportionate amount of trouble.

Maybe a show of hands???:D

Don't think we're a nation of racists at all, just most of the people who post on here are.

[Deleted User]

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

While I'm sure you're the best parents in the world the court is there to make sure parents don't get side tracked by a few grand and the child is awarded proper compensation for their injuries.

I understand that, what amazed was that we ended up settling for more than our Barrister was asking, which seemed odd. It was almost as if the defending barrister was on a % of the final award as well.

Samuel T. Cogley

Aegir wrote: »

I understand that, what amazed was that we ended up settling for more than our Barrister was asking, which seemed odd. It was almost as if the defending barrister was on a % of the final award as well.

I think you're reading too much into it tbh. Judges award fairly high here, that's a given when compared to other EU countries. I expect the defence barrister simply knew what was going to be acceptable to the Judge.

Kimbot

I see sheep wrote: »

Don't think we're a nation of racists at all, just most of the people who post on here are.

Is it racism if you hate everyone equally?

randd1

I see sheep wrote: »

Don't think we're a nation of racists at all, just most of the people who post on here are.

Racist because they have a problem with the fact that a serious disproportionate amount of travellers are criminals? Despite having everything they need given to them by the rest of society?

Since when is it racist to state the bloody obvious?

I grew up near two traveller families, within 5 miles of where I lived. One had a single mother (father in prison, manslaughter) in charge of 7. The other family was about 6 off-shoots of the same family. The single mother and them were cousins.

The single mother got a house in the village, and promptly made the most of it. She forced her kids to go to school every day by walking them to it, got them involved in the local sports teams and always invited the kids class mates around for birthday parties. Always let it be known that if anyone needed a lift into town she'd be going after school. And this is a woman who by her own admission had no education or job experience. Try as she might, the two eldest lads, who were in their teens when they first arrived, were nothing but trouble, but the rest of them turned out fine, the 3 youngest went to college and got qualifications, while another one works as a child minder.

The other family, and the two eldest of the single mother it has to be said, were a different story altogether. Constant trouble, constantly robbing the shops, sulky racing, assaults, kids never in school, always thieving, well known for organising dog fights and stealing dogs, most of them (including the women) have done jail for drugs, burglaries or assaults. The women often walking around with cuts and bruises, it was ridiculous the amount of beatings they took. And to top it off, every one of them were as ignorant as you could get to other people. This was, and is constant, since I was knee high to a grasshopper.

The point is travellers are by and large for most people nothing but trouble, but that there's absolutely nothing stopping them from doing better for themselves. The massive problem is that they actually have to want to better for themselves, but when you have a attitude where every criminal act is excused as culture, every criticism is racism and that you're entitled to whatever you want regardless of the rest of society while at the same demanding anything and everything, it's little wonder people get fed over it.

And seeing what they can do if they put their mind to it like the single mother, it makes you even more pissed off with the way they carry on. People are literally fed up with them at this stage because it's the travellers own ignorance that's the problem. And it isn't racist to point that out. More so, it should be pointed out and exposed for what it is.

I see sheep

randd1 wrote: »

Racist because they have a problem with the fact that a serious disproportionate amount of travellers are criminals? Despite having everything they need given to them by the rest of society?

Since when is it racist to state the bloody obvious?

I grew up...

I've no intention of reading all that like

I'll give you my story though -

I've lived near plenty of dickheads who weren't travellers.

I've never had any bother from travellers.

[Deleted User]

el Fenomeno wrote: »

How can we stop Ireland's claims culture?

Well outside my expertise or pay grade to know how to combat that to be honest. But I remember a thread on After Hours about "Would you report a false claim" or something like that and a lot of people were very brutal against those that said they would report them.

But if we are all paying insurance than insurance fraudsters are stealing from us all at some level. So _perhaps_ one way to combat claims culture would be to simultaneously combat anti whistle blowing culture or the "snitches get stitches" mindset.

Have not seen data on this at all so I can not say. Just thinking out loud and typing it mostly out of ignorance.

mcmoustache

I see sheep wrote: »

I've no intention of reading all that like

I'll give you my story though -

I've lived near plenty of dickheads who weren't travellers.

I've never had any bother from travellers.

Were you not banned yesterday or the day before for spouting nonsense?

I see sheep

mcmoustache wrote: »

Were you not banned yesterday or the day before for spouting nonsense?

I only signed up yesterday so no sorry.

Roger Hassenforder

I see sheep wrote: »

I only signed up yesterday so no sorry.

*arches eyebrow

Again

Lukekul

The first step is to remove any cash payout for whiplash, instead replace it with redeemable physio sessions. I wonder how quickly the reports of whiplash would fall?

randd1

I see sheep wrote: »

I've no intention of reading all that like

I'll give you my story though -

I've lived near plenty of dickheads who weren't travellers.

I've never had any bother from travellers.

Lucky you. Most of us don't have that luxury.

And your story? Profound. Its up there with the Iliad.

Roger Hassenforder

randd1 wrote: »

Lucky you. Most of us don't have that luxury.

And your story? Profound. Its up there with the Iliad.

The Iliad is more believable

I see sheep

randd1 wrote: »

Lucky you. Most of us don't have that luxury.

You only get trouble if you go looking for it and I'd say you annoy people, you're obviously an arsehole like so I don't blame the travellers.