Is Fine Gael in climate change denial

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 10:47am #1

This isn't to say the Fine Gael are climate changes deniers but they appear to be in denial as too the change that's required and the impact climate change will have

Currently we've no

Carbon Tax
On going major heavy rail projects
Shovel ready ready rail projects
On going light rail projects
Shovel ready light rail projects
Few if any high on going high quality cycling projects
Shovel ready cycling projects
Micro generation tariff
Plans to restore the bogs

We do have

Numerous motorways being built
Numerous motorways shovel ready
A proposal to build a 600 million motorway in Galway
Peat burning power plants
Piece meal approach to electric cars
Extremely slow planning processing for solar

It seems to me a lot of these changes would be fairly simple to make and would result in a reduction in our reliance on foreign oil, clean and green our country.

L1011 · 09-01-2019 11:00am

Ross in Transport is probably more responsible for a lot of that than FG; however he is being allowed do his pricking around. Carbon tax is being held up by being beholden to rural Independents. Independents in Government simply don't work - they manage to take the most parochial parts of other politicians and do only that.

With an effective Minister there, we'd be further along with Metrolink and BusConnects in Dublin and probably the regional city BusConnects also.

Ringsend and Finglas Luas should both be under design, but aren't. DART Underground should be under redesign, but isn't. New train cars should have been ordered, but aren't. At least the Maynooth line electrification is under design.

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 11:18am

L1011 wrote: »

Ross in Transport is probably more responsible for a lot of that than FG; however he is being allowed do his pricking around. Carbon tax is being held up by being beholden to rural Independents. Independents in Government simply don't work - they manage to take the most parochial parts of other politicians and do only that.

With an effective Minister there, we'd be further along with Metrolink and BusConnects in Dublin and probably the regional city BusConnects also.

Ringsend and Finglas Luas should both be under design, but aren't. DART Underground should be under redesign, but isn't. New train cars should have been ordered, but aren't. At least the Maynooth line electrification is under design.

FG have been in power for 8 years now . I'm not sure it's fair to point the finger solely at Ross . Sure he's basically useless but FG is still his boss.

blanch152 · 09-01-2019 12:31pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This isn't to say the Fine Gael are climate changes deniers but they appear to be in denial as too the change that's required and the impact climate change will have

Currently we've no
Carbon Tax

On going major heavy rail projects

Shovel ready ready rail projects

On going light rail projects

Shovel ready light rail projects

Few if any high on going high quality cycling projects

Shovel ready cycling projects

Micro generation tariff

Plans to restore the bogs

We do have
Numerous motorways being built

Numerous motorways shovel ready

A proposal to build a 600 million motorway in Galway

Peat burning power plants

Piece meal approach to electric cars

Extremely slow planning processing for solar

It seems to me a lot of these changes would be fairly simple to make and would result in a reduction in our reliance on foreign oil, clean and green our country.

With the exception of the Galway Ring Road which is needed anyway (and will be needed if we move to electric cars) I agree with what you say about projects generally.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

FG have been in power for 8 years now . I'm not sure it's fair to point the finger solely at Ross . Sure he's basically useless but FG is still his boss.

Climate change is undoubtedly a lower priority for FG. But it is also a lower priority for the public at large, which is where the real problem is. So for populist independent TDs, because that is what they are, climate change is off the agenda. Having one of them in charge of transport, especially one as arrogant as Ross is definitely a big problem. As for FG being his boss, I don't understand that one. It is a common misconception of coalitions that the big party is the boss, not always the case. What generally happens is that the low priorities of both sides get dropped and the sharp edges dulled.

The only way that the climate change issue can be changed is by voting Green and electing more Green TDs. Even if some of their policies are naive or too extreme (and they are), they will only get into government in a coalition, which is where the high priority they place on climate change will come to bear - carbon tax and public transport will be their two big ticket items. The sharp edges of their more fringe policies will be dulled. You would also hope that the Greens have learned from their time in coalition with FF where the bigger populist party used every delaying tactic in the book to hold back on some of the changes proposed. We would have had water charges a decade ago if the Greens had been able to get on with it.

Eric Cartman · 09-01-2019 12:51pm

Shane Ross is ruining dublin at the joy of his fellow psycholists , all transport development is anti car inside the m50 at present.

The carbon tax is thankfully being blockaded by rural tds who realise that theres an Ireland outside the M50

Weve done more than enough here on climate change, the world should really be condemning asia and africa rather than continue to impose unrealistic targets on europe

oscarBravo · 09-01-2019 1:04pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Weve done more than enough here on climate change...

Wow. You really live in a perfect bubble of ignorant fantasy, don't you?

Eric Cartman · 09-01-2019 1:09pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Wow. You really live in a perfect bubble of ignorant fantasy, don't you?

Please explain what more we could do that doesnt unfairly punish rural ireland, agriculture or the working people of Ireland ?

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 1:15pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Please explain what more we could do that doesnt unfairly punish rural ireland, agriculture or the working people of Ireland ?

Investing in rail and cycling? Investing in EV. A microfeed tariff?

ArthurG · 09-01-2019 1:16pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Weve done more than enough here on climate change....

Sarcasm?

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 1:18pm

blanch152 wrote: »

With the exception of the Galway Ring Road which is needed anyway (and will be needed if we move to electric cars) I agree with what you say about projects generally.

This is the Irish equivalent of the answer to gun crime is more guns! Perhaps after we've built a light rail system , fixed the bus network and improved cycling then perhaps a ring road can be justified.

troyzer · 09-01-2019 1:20pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Please explain what more we could do that doesnt unfairly punish rural ireland, agriculture or the working people of Ireland ?

So anything that affects the rural people of one of the wealthiest countries in the world is unfair but making Africa (where most of the most impoverished countries are) change its ways is fair.

Ireland is one of the worst pollutants in the world per capita. We need to get our **** together.

It can also be a great opportunity as well as a threat.

Plumbthedepths · 09-01-2019 1:25pm

troyzer wrote:

Ireland is one of the worst pollutants in the world per capita. We need to get our **** together.

Have you a source for this claim?

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 1:25pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Shane Ross is ruining dublin at the joy of his fellow psycholists , all transport development is anti car inside the m50 at present.

The carbon tax is thankfully being blockaded by rural tds who realise that theres an Ireland outside the M50

Weve done more than enough here on climate change, the world should really be condemning asia and africa rather than continue to impose unrealistic targets on europe

Of course it's anti car and rightly so. We've run out of space!

Plently more room for Ireland to do it's bit .

CO2 emissions are lower than they were, notwithstanding a significant increase in population, but we are nowhere near close to reaching our target of a 20% reduction by 2020,” he said.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-will-miss-eu-emission-targets-for-2020-admits-taoiseach-886731.html

Harry Palmr · 09-01-2019 1:29pm

Short sighted nonsense by the powers that be, in the end EU fines (put at 600m euro this year) and the cost of carbon credits (much lower but will surely become a more expensive trading system over time) will mean a zero sum game. One way or another we'll pay.

A greener economy is not a lesser economy just a slightly different one.

Harry Palmr · 09-01-2019 1:36pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Have you a source for this claim?

Ireland is pretty average in terms of developed European economies at 7 tonnes per person in 2017, we're nearly twice Sweden but less than Germany and Netherlands while half that of the USA/Canada

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC?view=map

johnnyskeleton · 09-01-2019 1:41pm

Unless and until climate change becomes a burning (no pun intended) issue at the doorsteps, then the politicians will have no interest in change. Even the Green party dont seem all that fussed about it, because it doesnt get them votes.

This applies, to a greater or lesser degree the world over and is a big problem with no easy solution.

troyzer · 09-01-2019 1:42pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Ireland is pretty average in terms of developed European economies at 7 tonnes per person in 2017, we're nearly twice Sweden but less than Germany and Netherlands while half that of the USA/Canada

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC?view=map

Denmark are something like 0.06 tonnes per capita which is incredibly impressive.

There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't be able to get close to that.

blanch152 · 09-01-2019 1:42pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This is the Irish equivalent of the answer to gun crime is more guns! Perhaps after we've built a light rail system , fixed the bus network and improved cycling then perhaps a ring road can be justified.

The ring-road is part of the solution to all of the above. The through traffic needs to be taken off the Galway city routes to allow space for light rail, cycle and bus networks.

blanch152 · 09-01-2019 1:44pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Unless and until climate change becomes a burning (no pun intended) issue at the doorsteps, then the politicians will have no interest in change. Even the Green party dont seem all that fussed about it, because it doesnt get them votes.

This applies, to a greater or lesser degree the world over and is a big problem with no easy solution.

https://www.greenparty.ie/policies/climate-action/

"Preventing climate change is at the heart of the Green Party’s principles"

ancapailldorcha · 09-01-2019 1:47pm

Is the agricultural sector not the giant elephant in the room?

Meat farming has to be huge in Ireland, surely. Meat consumption is a huge contributor to climate change. I come from this background myself and eat meat regularly and so understand the difficulty involved in improving things here. A lot of people rely on dairy and meat farming for their livelihoods and the only way I see that changing is brave policymaking from the government which seems unlikely in tandem with a rise in people going vegan which seems much more plausible.

Plumbthedepths · 09-01-2019 1:52pm

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Is the agricultural sector not the giant elephant in the room?

No political party is going to challenge the farming community and put higher taxes on their activities. Easier to hit the home owner.

Xterminator · 09-01-2019 1:54pm

ireland is a major food exporter.

some snippets

In 2015:-

Produces 10%+ of global infant formula
Ireland is the 4th largest net exporter of beef in the northern hemisphere
Ireland’s food and drink has a large global reach – exporting to 175 countries worldwide
Exports were 40% or €3 billion higher that the levels recorded in 2009
Food and drink exports increased by 9% to approach €11 billion for the first time
Produces 50%+ of all global cream liqueur

and exports have increased since 2015.

yet we then are expected to pay carbon credits, while the countries we export to dodge the co2 overhead growing their own food would incur. seems to be a systemic weakness in the system that it doesnt take into account that the co2 is generated here but the food consumed worldwide.

troyzer · 09-01-2019 1:56pm

Xterminator wrote: »

ireland is a major food exporter.

some snippets

In 2015:-

Produces 10%+ of global infant formula
Ireland is the 4th largest net exporter of beef in the northern hemisphere
Ireland’s food and drink has a large global reach – exporting to 175 countries worldwide
Exports were 40% or €3 billion higher that the levels recorded in 2009
Food and drink exports increased by 9% to approach €11 billion for the first time
Produces 50%+ of all global cream liqueur

and exports have increased since 2015.

yet we then are expected to pay carbon credits, while the countries we export to dodge the co2 overhead growing their own food would incur. seems to be a systemic weakness in the system that it doesnt take into account that the co2 is generated here but the food consumed worldwide.

This also goes the other way. We don't have any heavy industry or large scale mining/oil & gas. There's a reason why the petroeconomies are so high on this list and it's not just because cheap fuels mean they're wasteful.

Harry Palmr · 09-01-2019 2:02pm

Yep it's swings and roundabouts, obviously some countries fare better than others. Maybe at some point we'll see transferable carbon taxes which move with the product that incurs same.

fepper · 09-01-2019 2:03pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

No political party is going to challenge the farming community and put higher taxes on their activities. Easier to hit the home owner.

Farming community are also home owners so will be also screwed

Plumbthedepths · 09-01-2019 2:06pm

fepper wrote:

Farming community are also home owners so will be also screwed

Not to the degree of the carbon their enterprise generates.

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 2:06pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The ring-road is part of the solution to all of the above. The through traffic needs to be taken off the Galway city routes to allow space for light rail, cycle and bus networks.

There are only so many journeys in Galway if you do the non ring road option the traffic may in fact just evaporate. Why are we putting the needs of the few ahead of the many?
https://www.onestreet.org/resources-for-increasing-bicycling/115-traffic-evaporation

dense · 09-01-2019 2:10pm

Pause for thought.
We need to firstly quantify the percentage of detrimental climate change that has been attributed to Ireland.

(I do not want to hear someone talking about Irish people having a disproportionately "larger carbon footprint" than someone in a third world country unless they want to scientifically demonstrate what that collective disproportionate carbon footprint has caused.)

Once we know what percentage of climate change Ireland has caused, or indeed will cause, we can then look towards ways of rectifying the damage and preventing it.

We cannot do the latter until we do the former.
Nor do we stupidly sign up for more stupid policies which have no democratic mandate and will leave us paying half a billion in fines each year.

Does each household have a desire to pay an additional €3000 a year in new carbon taxes?

Put it in your manifesto and find out.
Debate it publicly.
Explain to the publc how this extra tax will affect global warming and climate change in real terms.

road_high · 09-01-2019 2:12pm

And what exactly is a Carbon tax going to achieve?
Apart from screw the low paid and struggling middle even more, who have to rely on carbon fuels for heating and transport?
If the state gave a damn about the issue- they’d channeling support into renewable alternatives - but that would take effort, massive focused spending and leadership. Easier just slap on another tax

Eric Cartman · 09-01-2019 2:15pm

Realistically the only things we can do to make a deliberate and substantial change to our emissions target is to reduce animal agriculture and build a nuclear power plant, both completely unviable politically and our meat exports really shouldnt be hampered, its one of our biggest exports.

In terms of getting people 'out of cars' a congestion charge in cities is the only way that doesnt disproportionately screw over rural ireland.

As inconvenient a truth as it is, even if the whole Of europe and north America met the crazy targets set out, its not going to help until asia, south america and africa are taken to task on their blatant consistent climate agreement violations and tge damage they do particularly to air and water quality. The race towards climate 'oblivion' is gery much in those continents hands. Even if we stopped progress in europe and they picked up the same rate of progress we have been achieving, it would he 50 years before they are where we are now.

road_high · 09-01-2019 2:18pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is the agricultural sector not the giant elephant in the room?

Meat farming has to be huge in Ireland, surely. Meat consumption is a huge contributor to climate change. I come from this background myself and eat meat regularly and so understand the difficulty involved in improving things here. A lot of people rely on dairy and meat farming for their livelihoods and the only way I see that changing is brave policymaking from the government which seems unlikely in tandem with a rise in people going vegan which seems much more plausible.

Farming is a handy scapegoat- few in number so easy to tar with the climate brush.
Why not restrictions on car ownership, foreign travel via air? It’s easy target one specific sector when it doesn’t affect you very much and let them shoulder all the pain.

troyzer · 09-01-2019 2:19pm

I actually agree that carbon taxes are a load of ****e in our case.

The entire point of a carbon tax is not to punish people but to disincentivise carbon based products in favour of non carbon alternatives. It's the same way tariffs are in theory designed to work, make imports more expensive thus encouraging people to buy local.

The problem with Ireland is that you can't just carbon tax everything without providing a solution. The tax is supposed to change behaviour but there's no alternative.

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 2:25pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

In terms of getting people 'out of cars' a congestion charge in cities is the only way that doesnt disproportionately screw over rural ireland.

And for rural Ireland we can have a distance from the nearest urban area tax. Transportation is nearly half of our carbon and rural Ireland needs to take ownership of their decisions to live 10 k away from the nearest village.

FreudianSlippers · 09-01-2019 2:25pm

troyzer wrote: »

I actually agree that carbon taxes are a load of ****e in our case.

The entire point of a carbon tax is not to punish people but to disincentivise carbon based products in favour of non carbon alternatives. It's the same way tariffs are in theory designed to work, make imports more expensive thus encouraging people to buy local.

The problem with Ireland is that you can't just carbon tax everything without providing a solution. The tax is supposed to change behaviour but there's no alternative.

Ireland has a major problem in that we don't have a cohesive or coherent taxation policy - what we have is a piecemeal taxation system with plasters here and there to cover the death by a thousand cuts.

If we looked at the amount of taxation on fuel, we'd be querying why we need to pay Motor Tax on top of that and VRT on top of that.

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 2:35pm

road_high wrote: »

And what exactly is a Carbon tax going to achieve?
Apart from screw the low paid and struggling middle even more, who have to rely on carbon fuels for heating and transport?
If the state gave a damn about the issue- they’d channeling support into renewable alternatives - but that would take effort, massive focused spending and leadership. Easier just slap on another tax

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fV6eeckxTs

Interesting video on the effect of carbon pricing on both companies and tax payers. Basically they used the money from the carbon tax to fund cutting income tax and fund taxpayers becoming more energy efficient in effect resulting in no net lose.

James Brown · 09-01-2019 2:43pm

I always felt that any monies from any carbon tax, levies under the guise of the environment etc. should go 100% towards alternative energies or greener ways of doing things otherwise they are just another tax. They may as well raise something else than have the farce of it.

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 2:48pm

Like it or not we'll be paying for carbon by the end of the year. I'd rather those emitting the carbon pay for it rather it being payed out of general taxation.

troyzer · 09-01-2019 2:50pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Like it or not we'll be paying for carbon by the end of the year. I'd rather those emitting the carbon pay for it rather it being payed out of general taxation.

It's not realistically going to reduce emmissions though.

People still need to drive places. The energy grid is still based on fossil fuels and the consumer has no control over that.

road_high · 09-01-2019 2:50pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fV6eeckxTs

Interesting video on the effect of carbon pricing on both companies and tax payers. Basically they used the money from the carbon tax to fund cutting income tax and fund taxpayers becoming more energy efficient in effect resulting in no net lose.

And can you see that happening here? They’ll raid the money raised to give to welfare bonuses or PS pay increases the first chance they get

Eric Cartman · 09-01-2019 2:53pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And for rural Ireland we can have a distance from the nearest urban area tax. Transportation is nearly half of our carbon and rural Ireland needs to take ownership of their decisions to live 10 k away from the nearest village.

And how do you propose people operate farms living in all of these towns...

James Brown · 09-01-2019 2:54pm

troyzer wrote: »

It's not realistically going to reduce emmissions though.

People still need to drive places. The energy grid is still based on fossil fuels and the consumer has no control over that.

I've no doubt. It's another shameless money spinner. If the money doesn't go towards green energy or some such it's a complete sham cash grab.

troyzer · 09-01-2019 2:56pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I've no doubt. It's another shameless money spinner. If the money doesn't go towards green energy or some such it's a complete sham cash grab.

It'll go towards paying the fines.

Although all of this money is fungible. Do we actually have a single streamed revenue source which goes into a single pot and isn't counted as general revenue?

How does PRSI work?

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 2:56pm

troyzer wrote: »

It's not realistically going to reduce emmissions though.

People still need to drive places. The energy grid is still based on fossil fuels and the consumer has no control over that.

People don't have to drive, they don't have to live in the middle of nowhere (let's exclude the current people living miles from their nearest village). Let's add a x euro per km people live from a village to the property tax.

The energy grid is slowly becoming greener but I agree the consumer has no control of that. However they have control over their demand. A friend of mine has a nest in their house and they've it set to 28 degrees!

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 2:57pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

And how do you propose people operate farms living in all of these towns...

Same as they do in France and Britain? However I'm willing to give an exception to those actively working a farm.

ancapailldorcha · 09-01-2019 2:58pm

road_high wrote: »

Farming is a handy scapegoat- few in number so easy to tar with the climate brush.
Why not restrictions on car ownership, foreign travel via air? It’s easy target one specific sector when it doesn’t affect you very much and let them shoulder all the pain.

When did I suggest targeting one specific sector alone? Other posters were discussing vehicle and traffic so I mentioned farming.

MrMusician18 · 09-01-2019 3:01pm

L1011 wrote: »

Ross in Transport is probably more responsible for a lot of that than FG; however he is being allowed do his pricking around. Carbon tax is being held up by being beholden to rural Independents. Independents in Government simply don't work - they manage to take the most parochial parts of other politicians and do only that.

With an effective Minister there, we'd be further along with Metrolink and BusConnects in Dublin and probably the regional city BusConnects also.

Ringsend and Finglas Luas should both be under design, but aren't. DART Underground should be under redesign, but isn't. New train cars should have been ordered, but aren't. At least the Maynooth line electrification is under design.

Carbon tax will just be seen as a revenue raising measure since the alternatives do not exist. If diesel at €1.30/l doesn't reduce use, diesel at €1.33/l won't make a difference to consumption either.

Private motor transport is not a particularly large component of overall total emissions. Iirc it's something like 7%.

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 3:08pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Private motor transport is not a particularly large component of overall total emissions. Iirc it's something like 7%.

Do you have a source for this?

Eric Cartman · 09-01-2019 3:13pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Same as they do in France and Britain? However I'm willing to give an exception to those actively working a farm.

Most of the 'one off houses' I think youre objecting too are usually within a few km of a village, often not absolutely in the middle of nowhere. Sure look at straffan, most of its 'population' are living in one offs within a 3km radius, wall to wall houses on an individual half or full acre.

LeinsterDub · 09-01-2019 3:21pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Most of the 'one off houses' I think youre objecting too are usually within a few km of a village, often not absolutely in the middle of nowhere. Sure look at straffan, most of its 'population' are living in one offs within a 3km radius, wall to wall houses on an individual half or full acre.

There appears to plenty of houses 8km or more away from Straffan/next nearest village and that's a comparably good example . Look at the N59 north of Galway for one of the worst.

road_high · 09-01-2019 3:24pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Most of the 'one off houses' I think youre objecting too are usually within a few km of a village, often not absolutely in the middle of nowhere. Sure look at straffan, most of its 'population' are living in one offs within a 3km radius, wall to wall houses on an individual half or full acre.

A huge mistake of the past twenty years or so has been the proliferation of one off housing- my own local small town/village has been struggling to grow in that time but all around it are literally dozens of one offs- this housing should have been channeled into the nearest village or town and would have led to great efficiencies of transport and service provision. May also have allowed development of group heating systems etc.
I come from a rural area and think that only farmers, people with ties to the specific area should have been allowed build.

MrMusician18 · 09-01-2019 3:27pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Do you have a source for this?

I'll have to dig out the figures but Transport in all forms accounts for just 20% of total emissions. When you strip out domestic aviation, public transport, fuel tourism, road haulage and rail, you find that in absolute terms, private car transport accounts for about 7% of the overall emissions figures. The small size of car figures tends to surprise us given how ubiquitous the car is. We forget though that the average car spends between 95 -99% of it's life parked up.

From memory I think the CO2 emissions from cars is roughly the same as domestic turf burning for heating.

Which would be easier to change?

Is Fine Gael in climate change denial

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