ReOPENed>>>Leaving Cert Reform. The propaganda begins >>>See Warning>>>

clunked wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-deemed-by-just-4-of-pupils-as-fair-test-of-knowledge-1.3749258.


Nothing about additional workload for teachers amazingly though:).

Yes, all sorts of 'reports' & 'working papers' on the NCCA website. There should be a thorough review of how the JC 'reform' is going before they start dismantling the LC. 'Continuous assement' is not the easy option students seem to think it is.

It should sit nicely with grade inflation in third level institutions and "meeting targets"


Was the survey "what do you want" distributed widely amongst teachers....I haven't heard any of my former colleagues mention it......hundreds of response doesn't exactly represent a fair sample to my mind...defintely not something decisions like this should be based upon.

I wonder if the questions were leading or chosen specifically to favour an outcome and what body independently assessed this

Was there any mention of high contact hours, high pupil teacher ratios, poor resourcing, promotion system as open to abuse as it always was (perhaps moreso favouring the bull**** merchants) and how reforms might take this into account if they truly are reforms and how failure to even acknowledge never mind do something about these issues might impact on delivery

Was feedback given that shows nuanced comments/any other section responses were taken into account etc

You'd get fairly tired of surveys saying what the creators want them to.

Imagine having the gaule to try and push this through when we are in the middle of a shambolic JC reform that will have to backtracks on within 5 years.
All you have to do is look at voice for teachers on Facebook over the weekend. Post after post of stressed out teachers, caused in no small part by 'reform'. We have, and have had, one of the worlds leading education system. Why are we so intent on wrecking it and dumbing it down?

Why does anyone care what students think? Of course they want an easier, less stressful exam. So what? Exams are hard. Life is hard. HTFU.

The LC is a beacon of objectivity and fairness in a country that has historically had a problem with a ‘who you know’ culture. Long may it stay so.

By the way, I'm not saying I agree with continuous assessment in schools.

I think there's a lot of merit to the blunt but largely fair leaving cert. Although grinds and the performance of private schools show that you can still pay your way to success.

And I also don't care that teenagers want continuous assessment, of course they do.

But I also think that I studied German in school for six years and can't speak the language. Irish for 13. My French is better than my Irish and I only started a few months ago.

There is something broken in the current system. It is not educating young people, it's preparing then for an exam.

I have children who will be sitting the leaving cert in a few years. Would love if they dropped Irish as a compulsory subject. Then concentrate on the subjects they like. More subjects like film and TV studies, IT, web design, you tube all that kind of stuff. History, Geography, economics, the sciences. Languages that are useful. Do Irish if you love it or like it. Social studies, races religion. Open up the whole thing, bring out the best in people. Not all kids want to go to Trinity and get 700 points....

troyzer wrote: »

By the way, I'm not saying I agree with continuous assessment in schools.

I think there's a lot of merit to the blunt but largely fair leaving cert. Although grinds and the performance of private schools show that you can still pay your way to success.

And I also don't care that teenagers want continuous assessment, of course they do.

But I also think that I studied German in school for six years and can't speak the language. Irish for 13. My French is better than my Irish and I only started a few months ago.

There is something broken in the current system. It is not educating young people, it's preparing then for an exam.

1. You can pay for grinds and private school but in June everything is equal and sits the same exams in the same conditions with allowances made if you have disabilities or illness and the guy from the council house has the same opportunity on the day as the princess from the mansion.

2. The biggest reason we can't speak Irish is we don't. Of course your French is better - you're using it every day.

3. The biggest problem with the leaving cert is parents and media spouting on about how much pressure its putting on the snowflakes children. STOP , and stop with the talk about it being the be all and end all. Every teacher I know goes in to the profession with the aim of educating the students and helping them to grow as people as well as prepare them for the terminal exam.
But if every single year the same Sh*te about points is been spouted in the media instead of encouraging people to fill out the CAO and also look at other options such as going into an apprentice ship in traditional trades or accounting etc.

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

By the way, I'm not saying I agree with continuous assessment in schools.

I think there's a lot of merit to the blunt but largely fair leaving cert. Although grinds and the performance of private schools show that you can still pay your way to success.

And I also don't care that teenagers want continuous assessment, of course they do.

But I also think that I studied German in school for six years and can't speak the language. Irish for 13. My French is better than my Irish and I only started a few months ago.

There is something broken in the current system. It is not educating young people, it's preparing then for an exam.

1. You can pay for grinds and private school but in June everything is equal and sits the same exams in the same conditions with allowances made if you have disabilities or illness and the guy from the council house has the same opportunity on the day as the princess from the mansion.

2. The biggest reason we can't speak Irish is we don't. Of course your French is better - you're using it every day.

3. The biggest problem with the leaving cert is parents and media spouting on about how much pressure its putting on the snowflakes children. STOP , and stop with the talk about it being the be all and end all. Every teacher I know goes in to the profession with the aim of educating the students and helping them to grow as people as well as prepare them for the terminal exam.
But if every single year the same Sh*te about points is been spouted in the media instead of encouraging people to fill out the CAO and also look at other options such as going into an apprentice ship in traditional trades or accounting etc.

1. Everything is equal in June but the rich kids will have had better teachers and grinds along the way. It does make a difference. Not that I think continuous assessment would be any better. But I don't think the current system is class proof in that way. Although it's certainly better than many other systems.

2. I don't use French every day. I practice it on memrise the odd time.

3. There's a lot of Truth in what you're saying here but all I can say is from my experience (did my leaving cert in 2011) it was entirely the teachers putting the fear of God into my year. None of my family had ever been to University so there was no real pressure there. I also was also too buried in Angry Birds and Temple Run to care about the latest Irish Times article on the CAO. What I knew, I got from my teachers. And they put a huge amount of pressure on us.

I also don't agree that teachers are there to grow pupils as adults. You might get the odd one who goes the extra mile, does extra curricular work etc. but these weren't very common for me.

Trades etc. were never discussed as an option. LCA was openly shunned.

evolving_doors wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I graduated with 14 people.

I knew my lecturers by their first names, got absolutely hammered with them and I even had dinner with my project supervisor and his wife in his house.

I never once felt like he wasn't able to be objective and in the end I came just short of first class honours which I needed for a PhD I was targeting.

It's just laziness to suggest it can't be done in schools.

Does that mean we have to be getting absolutely hammered with students now? :pac:
Just kidding...

So let's go through it then.

Q1. You'd be happy for me to grade one of my own classes' leaving cert exams.

Q2. Would you be prefer to see the pay increment system changed to a performance based metric?

1. I don't know yet. Just interested to hear the counter arguments.

2. No. Teaching is a job like any other. I don't appreciate the right wing zealots who think the whole world should work on commission. That being said, teachers should face performance reviews and get bonuses. But also get sacked if they're crap. We've all had teachers who were just shocking and shouldn't be allowed to keep teaching.

troyzer wrote: »

1. Everything is equal in June but the rich kids will have had better teachers and grinds along the way. It does make a difference. Not that I think continuous assessment would be any better. But I don't think the current system is class proof in that way. Although it's certainly better than many other systems.

And that s the point exactly - It's all well and good saying change the system but no one can come up with anything that is going to be fairer to date.

troyzer wrote: »

2. I don't use French every day. I practice it on memrise the odd time.

Do you practice Irish the odd time - its not really that its specific to you but the general "weren't taught properly" is a bit of a lazy generalisation. Like I have a college education but I didn't truly understand some of the topics until I was using them on a daily basis years later.

troyzer wrote: »

3. There's a lot of Truth in what you're saying here but all I can say is from my experience (did my leaving cert in 2011) it was entirely the teachers putting the fear of God into my year. None of my family had ever been to University so there was no real pressure there. I also was also too buried in Angry Birds and Temple Run to care about the latest Irish Times article on the CAO. What I knew, I got from my teachers. And they put a huge amount of pressure on us.

Again, its not specific to you but this gross generalisation is the same spin about pressure coming from the people who are creating the pressure .

troyzer wrote: »

I also don't agree that teachers are there to grow pupils as adults. You might get the odd one who goes the extra mile, does extra curricular work etc. but these weren't very common for me.

It depends on what the extra mile is, very often it can be challenging a pupil in class trying different ways to motivate them , not necessarily out on a rugby pitch or coaching a choir.

troyzer wrote: »

Trades etc. were never discussed as an option. LCA was openly shunned.

Yep, this would be a big bug bear of mine (And most teachers) is the lack of guidance counsellors which were cut in the recession and even then the role was supposed to include counselling as a main part of the post instead of a dedicated career guidance teacher.