No vision for a rapidly changing Ireland

Buford T. Justice XIX · 07-01-2019 12:08pm

Berserker wrote: »

I do. I want children to be active and play whatever sport they like, when they like. Talented youngsters, a twelve year old in this case, shouldn't be forced to chose to play GAA over another sport.

3 of mine play hurling, camogie, football, soccer, basketball, rugby, Taekwando, swimming, golf etc etc with local teams. The only proviso from the GAA, and indeed all the rest, is that they try to show for the local matches even if they can't always make training.

At County level, there is more pressure but it's exactly the same pressure from GAA, soccer, basketball or rugby.

SSr0 · 07-01-2019 12:08pm

awec wrote: »

It’s not straight forward. I bet the landlord in question does not have the appropriate insurance or license to be operating as a taxi.

You can’t just buy a car and then start giving people lifts.

You can if you're not charging people for the lift.

Berserker · 07-01-2019 12:15pm

OldRio wrote: »

You're using one example to condemn an entire organisation? Like I said 'agenda' You've managed to derail this thread because of your agenda. Leave you to it.

No I haven't. I made a valid point and I can think of other examples. I haven't derailed the thread. This is the last post I'll be making on the subject and plenty of other discussion points are active on the thread.

CosmicFool wrote: »

Yes 78% are RC but how many of those 78% practice it? A lot of family only baptize their children because they'll need it for when they go to school. How many go to church? I'd reckon less than half of the 78% actually go to church regularly.

They don't just baptise them. Communions and confirmations are still big events. A huge number of people still get married in RC churches. The role of the RCC has changed in Ireland. People don't take moral guidance from but you can't say that it's dead.

wakka12 · 07-01-2019 12:19pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

I don't see the decline of pub 'culture' as a loss TBH.

When its not replaced by anything, then its a loss to a community. Not everyone who goes to pubs gets so drunk that theyre loud and aggressive, lots of people can drink sensibly and share good times with friends in pubs

Same with church, I know elderly people who dont even belive in god but go to mass just to get out for a while and use it more as social outlet to chat with local people. Again its not being replaced by anything either.

They are both symptoms of the gradual erosion of any visible community outside of cities, and its happening throughout the world not just in ireland

Graces7 · 07-01-2019 12:24pm

El_Bee wrote: »

Honestly that sounds like heaven to me, what are the employment options like in areas like these?

I honestly have no idea; sorry. I am nearly 80; lived in rural Ireland nearly 20 years and love it for the qualities it has of peace and being away from towns while having access to a range of facilities.

When I came here, they apologised for the "lack of facilities "; as I told them I do not want facilities... everything needful is within reach

Graces7 · 07-01-2019 12:26pm

Tell me how wrote: »

I would suggest that the 'Why' has much more to do with the time of year than an onsite taxi service.

Don't know if you yourself were only home for Christmas. If so, ask a friend or family what is it like in a few weeks. January is quiet to be fair, but after that.

Also, suggesting other pubs should offer the same service is not entirely unreasonable. Nor is it straightforward. It needs a vehicle, and essentially another staff resource.

rural pubs are invariably crowded. Until midnight often .. whatever the month

Sardonicat · 07-01-2019 12:27pm

What's stopping people from replacing the pub? Can they not organise regular get togethers off their own batt? Book clubs, card drives, film nights, coffee mornings or plain old knees up in their homes.

Definitely think public transport should be a whole lot better than it is to ease social isolation but why has there always been such a reliance on the pub to be the hub of social contact? The fact that we even have a pub culture tells us something about our relationship with alcohol in this country and it's not about 'community '

Graces7 · 07-01-2019 12:31pm

awec wrote: »

It’s not straight forward. I bet the landlord in question does not have the appropriate insurance or license to be operating as a taxi.

You can’t just buy a car and then start giving people lifts.

Why not if he is not charging for it? Just giving neighbours a lift home so they can drink and not drive.. Good man! And good business man!

Graces7 · 07-01-2019 12:36pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you please give a rural location where you have found it is difficult to buy or rent.

Kerry; Connemara. Mayo..

House owners can earn more with less work by summer rentals, and leaving houses empty all winter than by renting year long with far more regulations etc.

If you look at the holiday rental ads you will see this.

Finding anywhere affordable is a huge issue. Trawl through any of the daft rural places. lol.. sorry! That sounds dreadful! I meant go to daft.ie and look at rentals in these counties

Graces7 · 07-01-2019 12:42pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Of course things change.

But change isn't always naturally for the betterment of society. One of the roles of government is to develop strategy so that the change which will come in the future is the most advantageous for as many as possible.

What does that mean please? people live where they choose and how they choose. Communities and areas change when folk move, leave, marry etc, and there is nothing any govt can or should do to affect that natural evolution.

Many rural areas are now ruined as communities by the tourist industry. Dead all winter. But people have to earn, to live.

Sardonicat · 07-01-2019 12:43pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you please give a rural location where you have found it is difficult to buy or rent.

Kerry; Connemara. Mayo..

House owners can earn more with less work by summer rentals, and leaving houses empty all winter than by renting year long with far more regulations etc.

If you look at the holiday rental ads you will see this.

Finding anywhere affordable is a huge issue. Trawl through any of the daft rural places.

And try finding an affordable rental on 'average" wage in Tralee or Killarney. Just dumps, anywhere half decent is at rip off rents.

Graces7 · 07-01-2019 12:48pm

wakka12 wrote: »

When its not replaced by anything, then its a loss to a community. Not everyone who goes to pubs gets so drunk that theyre loud and aggressive, lots of people can drink sensibly and share good times with friends in pubs

Same with church, I know elderly people who dont even belive in god but go to mass just to get out for a while and use it more as social outlet to chat with local people. Again its not being replaced by anything either.

They are both symptoms of the gradual erosion of any visible community outside of cities, and its happening throughout the world not just in ireland

Ah now. Out here you will maybe not see real community ..... no great outward show,,, but community as it is lived in reality... we have it in abundance. Not functions or clubs; mutual caring that is the true heart of community. Neighbours quietly helping each other.

How it used to be way back .

FishOnABike · 07-01-2019 12:48pm

Berserker wrote: »

A child from any religious or political background can play rugby. The same cannot be said for GAA. A child who wants to play GAA, rugby and hockey, is still not allowed to do so by the GAA in 2018/19. The GAA club members will make attending training sessions and games for others sports as difficult as possible for the youngster. I thought this nonsense died out years ago but it's still going on.

That may be more driven by individual personality in that club. Where I'm living the local GAA and rugby clubs training is scheduled so children can go to both, some coaches are involved in both. This is definitely the case at underage level, as children get older they probably need to concentrate on one or the other.

blanch152 · 07-01-2019 12:57pm

Globally, rural life is dying. Why the OP thinks it should be different for Ireland is puzzling.

There are good reasons why we are seeing increased urbanisation. The world has two choices - depopulation or living sustainably in cities.

It is only by reducing world population by 50% that we can make rural life sustainable again.

Most things, from healthcare to broadband, from postal services to driving, from banks to garda stations, cost more and are less environmentally sustainable in a rural population.

randd1 · 07-01-2019 1:00pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

Ireland is changing beyond all recognition.

Rural Ireland is slowly dying - this country is rapidly urbanising, particularly in and around Dublin - our City State (I have co-authored a number of papers on regional and urban trends in Ireland with another due out in May next).

Outside of the commuter belts of Dublin and Cork and the regional cities of Galway, Limerick and Waterford, rural Ireland is now in serious trouble. Analysis of census figures of smaller rural towns makes for unsettling reading.

Some coastal towns and a couple of tourist spots are holding up but so much of rural Ireland is in a very sad state of irreversible decline.

The Church is all but dead.

Local services are being closed down.

Pub culture is dying out.

The GAA is holding up, thankfully.

But IMO the current shower in Government simply don’t care about rural Ireland or the disadvantaged or by those trapped by the housing nightmare. They have no vision, no strategy. They are the ultimate career politicians. Utterly selfish.

Simply get developers to move away from the towns.

I can only speak for Kilkenny as I know it best, but there at least decent sized 10 villages and three small towns within 15 minutes drive of Kilkenny.

Now instead of just adding more housing estates in Kilkenny, why not say place 200 houses in the villages and 500 houses in the small towns?

That number of houses in a village could have huge effects for the local economy. Pubs, shops, local tradespeople would all benefit. There may even be new business created due to deceased costs. Not to mention cheaper houses.

As for the local schools, well instead of closing they get new pupils. And it takes the pressure off of having schools in towns. They'll have to expand some schools, but the advantage of rural schools is that 9 out 10 of them have the space to expand.

And if done properly, wouldn't overly affect the environment of the area either.

Sleepy · 07-01-2019 1:11pm

Banning ribbon development and unnecessary one-off developments would do a lot for rural Ireland but the reality is that most young couples don't want an old 100sqm house in the village: they want the 300sqm McMansion with stand-alone garage on half an acre or more a 15 minute drive from the village.

Was up in Mayo over the Christmas and the amount of abandoned / unoccupied housing visible as you drive through the towns and villages is staggering (as is the amount of Celtic tiger McMansions along the roads outside them).

Realistically though, what can government do to promote rural living in Ireland? It's already far cheaper to live rurally than in urban areas (despite it costing far more to provide rural dwellers with services). We can't compete in Manufacturing or any other low-skilled, labour intensive industry that would have been the lifeblood of these villages a century ago. High value services companies want (need?) to be based in the urban areas where the talent pool for their services exist. Decentralisation of Public Sector work while a great idea in theory was an absolute disaster in implementation and will only ever be seen as an opportunity to gouge the exchequer by the PS unions when, in reality, it should offer us a means of reducing public expenditure (via lower salaries required for staff with cheaper housing / cost-of-living in rural areas).

What options are left? Throw money at private investors to create jobs in rural areas? Not sure subsidising private enterprise is the best use of public money myself... and there's been limited success with this policy in the past.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 07-01-2019 2:34pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Banning ribbon development and unnecessary one-off developments would do a lot for rural Ireland but the reality is that most young couples don't want an old 100sqm house in the village: they want the 300sqm McMansion with stand-alone garage on half an acre or more a 15 minute drive from the village.

The average farm size in Ireland is 90 acres so every 90 acres, on average, is going to have a house on it. And a second house for the next generation of farmer. It's pretty pointless living 5 miles from the farm and driving back and forth 2 or 3 times a night with cows calving so it's much more time and energy efficient to have 2 houses on the farm.

Was up in Mayo over the Christmas and the amount of abandoned / unoccupied housing visible as you drive through the towns and villages is staggering (as is the amount of Celtic tiger McMansions along the roads outside them).

Those McMansions, as you term them, are generally built and owner by those from outside the area. Indeed, it was a fun game we played while driving around the area and easily spotting those that feel they have to make a 'statement' about their worth. The vast majority of local owner houses would be in the 1,500 to 1,700 sqf range while the recently arrived would be 2,000sqf+ range.

Realistically though, what can government do to promote rural living in Ireland? It's already far cheaper to live rurally than in urban areas (despite it costing far more to provide rural dwellers with services).

How is it costing more to supply rural dwellers with services? We built, supply and operate our own water system. We supply right-of-way for fairly nominal payments to allow wayleave for water and electricity services to acces urban customers who don't want those services to be provided anywhere near them. Just taking Dublin as an example, how near to the city are the nearest generating plants? How many wind turbines to provide their green energy demands are anywhere near the demand?[/QUOTE]

We can't compete in Manufacturing or any other low-skilled, labour intensive industry that would have been the lifeblood of these villages a century ago. High value services companies want (need?) to be based in the urban areas where the talent pool for their services exist.

A locally owned and based multinational manufacturing company recently advertised for new recruits, 100 over the next 12 months, to cater for demand. Despite being rural based a good percentage of that companys workforce is urban based. Low skilled, labour intensive? LOL, the good percentage of the new workforce, similar to the existing workforce, will be skilled operatives, computer programmers, management etc etc, not in the perceived lower echelons of the workforce.

Decentralisation of Public Sector work while a great idea in theory was an absolute disaster in implementation and will only ever be seen as an opportunity to gouge the exchequer by the PS unions when, in reality, it should offer us a means of reducing public expenditure (via lower salaries required for staff with cheaper housing / cost-of-living in rural areas).

What options are left? Throw money at private investors to create jobs in rural areas? Not sure subsidising private enterprise is the best use of public money myself... and there's been limited success with this policy in the past.

So it's fine to provide subsidised jobs in urban areas but not rural areas? Riiiight:rolleyes:

Tell me how · 07-01-2019 2:36pm

Berserker wrote: »

A child from any religious or political background can play rugby. The same cannot be said for GAA. A child who wants to play GAA, rugby and hockey, is still not allowed to do so by the GAA in 2018/19. The GAA club members will make attending training sessions and games for others sports as difficult as possible for the youngster. I thought this nonsense died out years ago but it's still going on.

I know others have commented on this but it needs to be repeated.

This is categorically untrue. There is zero real world evidence of this being in any way common practice. There most definitely will be cases where events overlap but to suggest that it is intentional widespread practice is a lie.

suicide_circus · 07-01-2019 2:43pm

Increased urbanisation and the death of the rural village is not an irish problem. Same all over the world. Dystopian megacities here we come!

Tell me how · 07-01-2019 2:48pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Globally, rural life is dying. Why the OP thinks it should be different for Ireland is puzzling.

There are good reasons why we are seeing increased urbanisation. The world has two choices - depopulation or living sustainably in cities.

It is only by reducing world population by 50% that we can make rural life sustainable again.

Most things, from healthcare to broadband, from postal services to driving, from banks to garda stations, cost more and are less environmentally sustainable in a rural population.

This is a topic about Ireland, so the global population size is largely irrelevant.

In the middle of the 19th century the population was equal to what we had now and much more dispersed. And obviously, communities were much more sustainable and contained back then. However, today's society still doesn't mean that we abandon everywhere outside of one major population centre and may 3-5 smaller centres around the country.

What do you suggest, we abandon areas outside of cities entirely, we do not maintain roads or expect hedgerows to be maintained? We do not expect farmers to live locally? In theory, you would be correct needing services in a smaller area would be more efficient. But what do we so, move everyone to a single city location and ignore the rest of the country?
This needs to be more than a bean counting exercise.

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that everyone gets a garda station, hospital and entertainment venue within 3km of their front door.

Graces7 · 07-01-2019 2:50pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

Ireland is changing beyond all recognition.

Rural Ireland is slowly dying - this country is rapidly urbanising, particularly in and around Dublin - our City State (I have co-authored a number of papers on regional and urban trends in Ireland with another due out in May next).

Outside of the commuter belts of Dublin and Cork and the regional cities of Galway, Limerick and Waterford, rural Ireland is now in serious trouble. Analysis of census figures of smaller rural towns makes for unsettling reading.

Some coastal towns and a couple of tourist spots are holding up but so much of rural Ireland is in a very sad state of irreversible decline.

The Church is all but dead.

Local services are being closed down.

Pub culture is dying out.

The GAA is holding up, thankfully.

But IMO the current shower in Government simply don’t care about rural Ireland or the disadvantaged or by those trapped by the housing nightmare. They have no vision, no strategy. They are the ultimate career politicians. Utterly selfish.

OP you see things far from the way they are. Dark and dismal... Rural life has changed radically. We who dwell rural do not live as we did decades ago. We do not seek the same facilities. If we did they would be there; we are not helpless.

Your last para is bizarre. It really is. So much of what we need we can and do sort ourselves. A vision? Why?

I live near a small village that has a vibrant life and a quiet care for its old folk. No Post office now; because folk are so mobile it was being underused. Our fault in fact. An excellent Community Centre and above all folk who quietly care for each other. Which is what community is about.

Tell me how · 07-01-2019 2:51pm

3DataModem wrote: »

Good to see there are upsides.

The pub culture the OP speaks of is more than just the 'alcohol intake' element.
It is the social interaction and support structures which came from frequently meeting friends and neighbours.
This is not happening in a different location now that it is happening less in a pub and that is not entirely positive.

Tell me how · 07-01-2019 2:53pm

Graces7 wrote: »

OP you see things far from the way they are. Dark and dismal... Rural life has changed radically. We who dwell rural do not live as we did decades ago. We do not seek the same facilities. If we did they would be there; we are not helpless.

Your last para is bizarre. It really is. So much of what we need we can and do sort ourselves. A vision? Why?

I live near a small village that has a vibrant life and a quiet care for its old folk. No Post office now; because folk are so mobile it was being underused. Our fault in fact. An excellent Community Centre and above all folk who quietly care for each other. Which is what community is about.

What is the trend in attendance numbers in the local schools? How many 20-60 year olds are working locally?
How is the GAA club faring or has it had to amalgamate with another club to make up the numbers?

There is more to community than just serving the needs of the older generation.

Sebastian Dangerfield · 07-01-2019 2:57pm

Pub culture is dying out because i) young people have more more varied interests now in areas such as diet and fitness, travel etc, than my generation had (left school in 2000), and ii) because seeing the damage drink has caused in some families, younger people have decided to not follow blindly down the same path. Some vintners also don't help themselves; things like having clean bathrooms are important to people nowadays. I can't remember the last time I was in a rural pub that had soap, running water and a working handdryer / hand towels. Its a tiny detail, but like it or not it puts people off.

The church is dying out largely because a lot of its views conflict with the liberal views of many young people today, and rather than look within itself and assess opportunities to meet that challenege, it buries its head in the sand and if anything becomes even more entrenched in its views. If it continues down this path, it may drive itself to complete irrelevance in modern societies in the next 50 years (in my opinion).

I don't see what either of these has to do with the government. If anything, the governments minimum unit pricing and associated legislation is thinly veiled protectionism of pubs - they are trying to help.

Tell me how · 07-01-2019 2:59pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Banning ribbon development and unnecessary one-off developments would do a lot for rural Ireland but the reality is that most young couples don't want an old 100sqm house in the village: they want the 300sqm McMansion with stand-alone garage on half an acre or more a 15 minute drive from the village.

Was up in Mayo over the Christmas and the amount of abandoned / unoccupied housing visible as you drive through the towns and villages is staggering (as is the amount of Celtic tiger McMansions along the roads outside them).

Realistically though, what can government do to promote rural living in Ireland? It's already far cheaper to live rurally than in urban areas (despite it costing far more to provide rural dwellers with services). We can't compete in Manufacturing or any other low-skilled, labour intensive industry that would have been the lifeblood of these villages a century ago. High value services companies want (need?) to be based in the urban areas where the talent pool for their services exist. Decentralisation of Public Sector work while a great idea in theory was an absolute disaster in implementation and will only ever be seen as an opportunity to gouge the exchequer by the PS unions when, in reality, it should offer us a means of reducing public expenditure (via lower salaries required for staff with cheaper housing / cost-of-living in rural areas).

What options are left? Throw money at private investors to create jobs in rural areas? Not sure subsidising private enterprise is the best use of public money myself... and there's been limited success with this policy in the past.

I do feel the government could encourage investment in local areas. They could locate governmental offices there if possible (I'm aware of the decentralisation fiasco) but try putting offices there with new staff as appropriate as opposed to trying to move those that do not want to be moved.
The Athenry data centre thing was a very tough blow for the idea of rural development. I think the government should have been more proactive in ensuring it went ahead.

I do agree to some degree on ribbon development. I would like to see something done to encourage purchase of 2nd hand homes rather than new builds.

Jumbo2018 · 07-01-2019 2:59pm

Berserker wrote: »

Woman who sits beside me in work is giving out yards about it. Her son seems to be a talented youngster, playing multiple sports because he loves them all and the antics of the local GAA bods is turning him off sports completely. One of the GAA trainers actually referred to rugby and hockey as "foreign sports" to her at the weekend when she had a go at him. It's 2019 ffs. Thought these knuckle draggers were a thing of the past. She is actually thinking of pursuing this and lodging a complaint.

Well technically they are foreign sports seeing as they didn't originate in ireland. Not really sure how you could lodge a complaint about someone accurately describing a sport as a foreign sport.Although I suspect this didn't really happen and the woman who sits beside you in work doesn;t really exist either.

You're post have all the hallmarks of the type bull****ter who's just looking for an excuse to have a pop at the GAA and making outlandish inaccurate statements to back it up.

Tell me how · 07-01-2019 3:00pm

Graces7 wrote: »

rural pubs are invariably crowded. Until midnight often .. whatever the month

Let's stick to the truth Graces7.

Tell me how · 07-01-2019 3:06pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Kerry; Connemara. Mayo..

House owners can earn more with less work by summer rentals, and leaving houses empty all winter than by renting year long with far more regulations etc.

If you look at the holiday rental ads you will see this.

Finding anywhere affordable is a huge issue. Trawl through any of the daft rural places. lol.. sorry! That sounds dreadful! I meant go to daft.ie and look at rentals in these counties

There is accommodation available in each of those locations.

Some of them of high quality. Certainly much better than what we are seeing being offered in Dublin.
The definition of affordable is somewhat subjective.

sk8erboii · 07-01-2019 3:18pm

‘Church is dead’
Good

‘Pub culture’

What like 20 morbidly obese men who spend all their welfare checks on pints?

Tell me how · 07-01-2019 3:27pm

TG4 did a program on this in November. (Link)

One place of focus was Ballylongford in North Kerry. In relation to school numbers they have experienced the following.

"In 1998 there were 490 pupils in the three schools, in 2008 there were 174 and now, in 2018, there are 96 pupils on the roll books. This is an extraordinary depletion in numbers."

There were no junior infants enrolled in Ballylongford in 2017.

An 80% decline in 20 years is very stark.

No vision for a rapidly changing Ireland

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