Inside Dublin’s Housing Crisis

LotharIngum · 04-01-2019 04:10PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

It would be great to see for a couple of years at least a bias against the cities when it comes to new jobs.

Governments are chasing their tail. First they ensure most new jobs are in the cities, then struggle to build the transport and housing infrastructure. It takes years for them to catch up and creates general misery for everyone.

How about build the transport infrastructure first such as high speed broadband rurally and then encourage movement of industry out from cities.

There's no reason why Facebook, Google, etc should be smack bang in Dublin city centre, other than as a "Cool" location to work in for their Execs. They should be based in Dublin but outside the M50.

I work for one such company. They opened a new office far away from Dublin about two years ago. Then they asked staff to leave the Dublin office to transfer up. They wanted about 100. They got 2. The result is that the plans to scale back the Dublin office have been cancelled.

Young professionals do not want to work outside Dublin in large enough numbers, even with high rents and property prices.

ToBeFrank123 · 04-01-2019 04:28PM

LotharIngum wrote: »

I work for one such company. They opened a new office far away from Dublin about two years ago. Then they asked staff to leave the Dublin office to transfer up. They wanted about 100. They got 2. The result is that the plans to scale back the Dublin office have been cancelled.

Young professionals do not want to work outside Dublin in large enough numbers, even with high rents and property prices.

Huge generalization. I think it would be more correct to say young professionals are given no alternative but to work in Dublin. Not all young professionals think the same. Some want the bright lights and nightlife, while others want a quiet life in a rural setting. Many people get tired of city living after a few years. The truth is there is very little alternative to Dublin for most people - and that goes down solely to successive government failures to offer an alternative counter balance. Basically its Dublin or nothing. Hence the vicious cycle of a housing crisis in Dublin. Pushing more and more people into a city that clearly can't accommodate them.

beauf · 04-01-2019 04:34PM

LotharIngum wrote: »

I work for one such company. They opened a new office far away from Dublin about two years ago. Then they asked staff to leave the Dublin office to transfer up. They wanted about 100. They got 2. The result is that the plans to scale back the Dublin office have been cancelled.

Young professionals do not want to work outside Dublin in large enough numbers, even with high rents and property prices.

They asked people already working in a Dublin office. So they were most likely all based in Dublin already.

They did that in my place where the vast majority already had been 20yrs based in Dublin.

We've spent 30yrs moving everything to Dublin it will take as much time if not longer to encourage people out of it.

Arthur Daley · 04-01-2019 04:34PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Huge generalization. I think it would be more correct to say young professionals are given no alternative but to work in Dublin. Not all young professionals think the same. Some want the bright lights and nightlife, while others want a quiet life in a rural setting. Many people get tired of city living after a few years. The truth is there is very little alternative to Dublin for most people - and that goes down solely to successive government failures to offer an alternative counter balance. Basically its Dublin or nothing. Hence the vicious cycle of a housing crisis in Dublin. Pushing more and more people into a city that clearly can't accommodate them.

When things happen on this scale (the drive to move to large cities), it is difficult to conclude that it is by accident, or incompetence. When you use your head a little. When there is this much money and societal upheaval (for the workers) involved it has to be co ordinated at some level. They want/need us in large cities. Rural societies are a pest for the powers that be.

beauf · 04-01-2019 04:38PM

markpb wrote: »

What's wrong with them being in the city centre?

It can't cope.

beauf · 04-01-2019 04:39PM

Arthur Daley wrote: »

When things happen on this scale (the drive to move to large cities), it is difficult to conclude that it is by accident, or incompetence. When you use your head a little. When there is this much money and societal upheaval (for the workers) involved it has to be co ordinated at some level. They want/need us in large cities. Rural societies are a pest for the powers that be.

Its chasing the fast buck. Put everything in one place and it cut costs. Until its overloaded.

LotharIngum · 04-01-2019 04:43PM

beauf wrote: »

Its chasing the fast buck. Put everything in one place and it cut costs. Until its overloaded.

I think you have just described the government there

Old diesel · 04-01-2019 04:44PM

You can also develop good transport links - fast, reliable, fequent, affordable from areas like Dundalk or Mullingar etc.

Costly upfront costs though and obviously if you could get to Mullingar in 30 mins you get silly rents or house prices spilling over to there as well.

beauf · 04-01-2019 04:50PM

It just about spreading some of the load.

Its about a better life work balance. A better balance for our society and culture.

The Student · 04-01-2019 05:13PM

LotharIngum wrote: »

Fair point, but I think you know already that its not as simple as that.

If you start introducing area specific variations to the lending rules you will end up in a complete mess.

markpb · 04-01-2019 05:21PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There's no reason why Facebook, Google, etc should be smack bang in Dublin city centre, other than as a "Cool" location to work in for their Execs. They should be based in Dublin but outside the M50.

markpb wrote: »

What's wrong with them being in the city centre?

beauf wrote: »

It can't cope.

With what exactly? Do you mean there aren't enough offices, enough places for people to live, enough transport? You're making very vague statements. The city centre definitely has plenty of offices and plenty more being built right now. Transport definitely needs improvements but the city centre has better transport links that the rest of Dublin and vastly better than anywhere else. Residential is a different problem but it's not limited to the city centre and won't be solved by building just there.

ToBeFrank123 · 04-01-2019 05:27PM

markpb wrote: »

With what exactly? Do you mean there aren't enough offices, enough places for people to live, enough transport? You're making very vague statements. The city centre definitely has plenty of offices and plenty more being built right now. Transport definitely needs improvements but the city centre has better transport links that the rest of Dublin and vastly better than anywhere else. Residential is a different problem but it's not limited to the city centre and won't be solved by building just there.

We don't need more offices in Dublin city centre. Its more apartments that are required.

More offices and less apartments mean housing crisis for city workers, which is what is happening.

The government/local authorities/builders etc seem to be prioritizing office building over apartment building.

We are told with glee by the IDA and government about all the Brexit workers who will move here from the UK. Where are they supposed to live? Talk about making the existing housing crisis worse.

Eric Cartman · 04-01-2019 05:47PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

We don't need more offices in Dublin city centre. Its more apartments that are required.

More offices and less apartments mean housing crisis for city workers, which is what is happening.

The government/local authorities/builders etc seem to be prioritizing office building over apartment building.

We are told with glee by the IDA and government about all the Brexit workers who will move here from the UK. Where are they supposed to live? Talk about making the existing housing crisis worse.

We'd have enough apartments in dublin city if we put a ban on people who don't work taking social housing in the city, committed to not building more social housing in the city and allowed develpers to be exempt from the 10% requirement in the city.

Idbatterim · 04-01-2019 05:57PM

I think the building materials industry, land owners and property developers are too hell bent on bringing back the really good times so arent willing to drop prices. Theyre all holding out for the government to turn around and say 'ok, screw the central bank limit' and they can go mad again.

About a year or two back I was thinking, once the CB dont mess with the amount that can be borrowed, the salary multiple etc. That the scum in power would then be forced to do something about affordability, other than people drowning themselves in debt...

I think for a long time that big questions need to be asked over how much government are creaming off new builds, if they are giving some people virtually free housing, how do you justify that!

With apartments you can certainly look at the cost, no doubt the lift core ratio etc is overkill and laughable, like everything else. Getting rid of dual aspect requirement would certainly bring down the costs substantially also...

You simply cant get affordable or relatively affordable housing without government building though. They private sector goal is profit maximization, solving societal problems is a government issue. Thats the problem though, you have the clever ones working in the private sector and are looking to morons to sort out the housing "crisis"...

This problem is pretty easy to fix, if you want to and were a dictator for the day. You have a collection of morons and or snakes at every level in office here. The vast majority are homeowners, they want rising prices.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 04-01-2019 06:30PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

About a year or two back I was thinking, once the CB dont mess with the amount that can be borrowed, the salary multiple etc. That the scum in power would then be forced to do something about affordability, other than people drowning themselves in debt...

I think for a long time that big questions need to be asked over how much government are creaming off new builds, if they are giving some people virtually free housing, how do you justify that!

This problem is pretty easy to fix, if you want to and were a dictator for the day. You have a collection of morons and or snakes at every level in office here. The vast majority are homeowners, they want rising prices.

Up to 40% of a new build cost can go to the exchequer (according to another poster who is a QS)

The total cost of paying that back to the bank with interest is huge.

Reducing that 40% while preventing the gap being swallowed by extra builder's margin is a tough one.

beauf · 04-01-2019 06:50PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

... You have a collection of morons and or snakes at every level in office here. The vast majority are homeowners, they want rising prices...

I think boards has managed to vilify every group at this point.

This is societal problem. It's how we vote and what people demand that had caused this. We voted the same people in each time. What does that day about us.

garhjw · 04-01-2019 10:04PM

beauf wrote: »

I think boards has managed to vilify every group at this point.

This is societal problem. It's how we vote and what people demand that had caused this. We voted the same people in each time. What does that day about us.

What does it say about the alternatives to vote for?

thereality · 05-01-2019 12:38PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Huge generalization. I think it would be more correct to say young professionals are given no alternative but to work in Dublin.

I don't think you understand who works in these IT companies in Dublin. If I moved to Dublin from Amsterdam, Tel Aviv, Berlin, NYC or San Francisco. Why would I want to live in the arsehole of nowhere? If you are young at the top of your career, would you want to live in pretty much isolation in the midlands?

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Some want the bright lights and nightlife, while others want a quiet life in a rural setting. Many people get tired of city living after a few years.

A lot don't though. A lot love the variety of shops, bars, restaurants etc that cities offer. They love the public transportation and the fact you can be London within about 3 hours of leaving your desk in Dublin. You can go to pretty any European city each day from Dublin. Most people love living in cities.

IMO I think allure of living outside of Dublin would be gone in the morning, if one off housing was banned. If you couldn't live in a McMansion for next to nothing, few would want to live outside of large cities here. Why would want to live in the all the horrible small cities and towns in Ireland?

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The truth is there is very little alternative to Dublin for most people

Outside of major cities it is the same in every other country. It is literally London or nothing for most in the UK. For some industries in Germany, it is Frankfurt or nothing, Munich or nothing. I can't get over that some people think a country of 4.5m people should have several cities each with amazing job markets.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

and that goes down solely to successive government failures to offer an alternative counter balance.

Dublin gets stripped of about €6bn of tax revenue each year. Each year €6bn raised in Dublin goes to other parts of Ireland. The Government has chronically underfunded Dublin to appease people like you who think Dublin should not have nice things, as other regions are bad. I can't wrap my head around how people think Ireland could have several large cities and that several cities competing for FDI is desirable. We are a country of 4.5m people. What good is several smaller cities other than making people feel less bitter about Dublin's success.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Hence the vicious cycle of a housing crisis in Dublin. Pushing more and more people into a city that clearly can't accommodate them.

I am genuinely worried, when people think a city of Dublin's size can't grow any larger when there are cities in Europe multiples the size of Dublin with significantly less issues than Dublin. Dublin has issues as previously mentioned €6bn leaves Dublin each year. Imagine the infrastructure and housing in Dublin if €6bn was spent on it for the next decade rather than subsidising off housing. Dublin has issues as people like you make the Government afraid to spend money in Dublin.

beauf · 05-01-2019 12:53PM

I think there's people who think there is more to life than climbing the corporate ladder and surviving just to work.

Some people want to have a better quality of life a different life than exists in the cities.

I know lots of people who don't live in cities and have no wish to do so. Lots of people I know who do work in cities still have a place down the country they hope to move back to some day.

People should be careful they don't get trapped in a lifestyle they don't want to do long term.

beauf · 05-01-2019 12:56PM

thereality wrote: »

. .I am genuinely worried, when people think a city of Dublin's size can't grow any larger when there are cities in Europe multiples the size of Dublin with significantly less issues than Dublin. Dublin has issues as previously mentioned €6bn leaves Dublin each year. Imagine the infrastructure and housing in Dublin if €6bn was spent on it for the next decade rather than subsidising off housing. Dublin has issues as people like you make the Government afraid to spend money in Dublin.

Afraid? They can't spend money on Dublin fast enough. The issue is they spend it badly and with poor short sighted planning.

Dublin will no doubt very much bigger. But it will a painful growth.

Idbatterim · 05-01-2019 02:02PM

beauf wrote: »

I think boards has managed to vilify every group at this point.

This is societal problem. It's how we vote and what people demand that had caused this. We voted the same people in each time. What does that day about us.

well who would you blame? the only ones I see proposing a solution that I agree with, is Eirigi and universal public housing... maybe other parties on the left are too, I dont know.

Or as someone who has never been unemployed a day in my life, I can vote for that parasite Varadkar, he will give a miniscule tax cut every budget, but we will all be working poor because we are being robbed on property :rolleyes:

beauf · 05-01-2019 02:12PM

There are not a lot of options thats for sure. Its either hard left or hard right.

Idbatterim · 05-01-2019 03:07PM

beauf wrote: »

There are not a lot of options thats for sure. Its either hard left or hard right.

hard right?! Are you talking about FG and the world class welfare rates, marginal tax rates from E35,000 taken from the working poor as if you were the wolf of wall street, virtually free housing, free gp visits for all the wasters?

FG attitude to housing and seeing it as a cash cow for themselves and their mates and many of their voters is disgusting. to call FG even centre is laughable in my opinion, centre left...

GAA Beo · 05-01-2019 05:59PM

Dublin rental market has become absolutely unaffordable for the average Joe and absolutely insane, I assume most people can agree with that. The job market is good there but between the cost of living and the cost of housing it's just unreachable for many. I'm an unemployed university graduate down the country but the job market here is terrible so I can't stay here either. It's a catch 22 for many down the country now, no jobs locally but Dublin unaffordable.

I have weighed up my options and will likely be moving to Belfast in the next 2 months. More chance of a job there than here and a sane rental market. I imagine many more Dubs will be priced out of Dublin and many others priced out may go for the airport, as the housing issues here will likely get worse this year.

beauf · 05-01-2019 06:45PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

hard right?! Are you talking about FG and the world class welfare rates, marginal tax rates from E35,000 taken from the working poor as if you were the wolf of wall street, virtually free housing, free gp visits for all the wasters?

FG attitude to housing and seeing it as a cash cow for themselves and their mates and many of their voters is disgusting. to call FG even centre is laughable in my opinion, centre left...

There a bigger picture where we are moving more like the US and similar, where its a more unequal distribution of wealth with the rich getting richer. You are seeing more welfare supports because more people are falling into it. It much harder for smaller business to survive and easier for big business to make profits. As more people become less well off they have to appease them to get their votes. So people look at these issues in isolation not at the general shift in how our society is functioning.

Old diesel · 05-01-2019 06:58PM

beauf wrote: »

There a bigger picture where we are moving more like the US and similar, where its a more unequal distribution of wealth with the rich getting richer. You are seeing more welfare supports because more people are falling into it. It much harder for smaller business to survive and easier for big business to make profits. As more people become less well off they have to appease them to get their votes. So people look at these issues in isolation not at the general shift in how our society is functioning.

This.....

Quick example - hospitality sector.

Always under pressure for costs, Adrian Cummins of the Restaurants association was looking for a 5 year minimum wage freeze about two years ago.

People working in that sector will often be on low pay, they will be eligible for HAP/social housing.

If a hospitality worker on low pay is a parent then whatever Family income supplement is called these days will be paying part of their weekly income.

It's a mess

ToBeFrank123 · 05-01-2019 11:44PM

thereality wrote: »

I don't think you understand who works in these IT companies in Dublin. If I moved to Dublin from Amsterdam, Tel Aviv, Berlin, NYC or San Francisco. Why would I want to live in the arsehole of nowhere? If you are young at the top of your career, would you want to live in pretty much isolation in the midlands?

A lot don't though. A lot love the variety of shops, bars, restaurants etc that cities offer. They love the public transportation and the fact you can be London within about 3 hours of leaving your desk in Dublin. You can go to pretty any European city each day from Dublin. Most people love living in cities.

IMO I think allure of living outside of Dublin would be gone in the morning, if one off housing was banned. If you couldn't live in a McMansion for next to nothing, few would want to live outside of large cities here. Why would want to live in the all the horrible small cities and towns in Ireland?

Outside of major cities it is the same in every other country. It is literally London or nothing for most in the UK. For some industries in Germany, it is Frankfurt or nothing, Munich or nothing. I can't get over that some people think a country of 4.5m people should have several cities each with amazing job markets.

Dublin gets stripped of about €6bn of tax revenue each year. Each year €6bn raised in Dublin goes to other parts of Ireland. The Government has chronically underfunded Dublin to appease people like you who think Dublin should not have nice things, as other regions are bad. I can't wrap my head around how people think Ireland could have several large cities and that several cities competing for FDI is desirable. We are a country of 4.5m people. What good is several smaller cities other than making people feel less bitter about Dublin's success.

I am genuinely worried, when people think a city of Dublin's size can't grow any larger when there are cities in Europe multiples the size of Dublin with significantly less issues than Dublin. Dublin has issues as previously mentioned €6bn leaves Dublin each year. Imagine the infrastructure and housing in Dublin if €6bn was spent on it for the next decade rather than subsidising off housing. Dublin has issues as people like you make the Government afraid to spend money in Dublin.

This mindset about wanting to live in a cool city centre location is exactly why we have a Dublin housing crisis.

And Silicon Valley is outside of nearby cities. Its not a city centre location. Most American IT workers live in suburbs and work in the Suburbs where the IT companies are based.

For all their faults Americans at least know how to plan cities. Unlike our planners or rather non existant planners. Making an Irish Silicon Valley out of Dublin 2 was always going to end in disaster. I think even the IT hipsters who work there get that now. They are working to live and thats about it.

AndrewJRenko · 06-01-2019 03:13PM

thereality wrote: »

IMO I think allure of living outside of Dublin would be gone in the morning, if one off housing was banned. If you couldn't live in a McMansion for next to nothing, few would want to live outside of large cities here. Why would want to live in the all the horrible small cities and towns in Ireland?

If you get critical mass of people in the 'horrible small cities and towns', they become vibrant, thriving centres of activity - nice places to live. If you strip the towns of all the people through one-off housing, they die, as is happening today.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Time to end taxing of landlords. It turns a lot of landlords off, especially those trying to make a small profit.
Many just end up selling.

Bwaahaahaa, nice try.

So what happens if they end up selling? The property doesn't disappear off the face of the earth. Someone else buys it, and either lives in it or rents it out, or a bit of both.

06-01-2019 03:35PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

... maybe other parties on the left are too, I dont know.

....

When you start thinking parties on the left make reasonable propositions that are actually workable, fundable and will benefit folk working and paying tax you are at rock bottom logic.

The Student · 06-01-2019 04:07PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So what happens if they end up selling? The property doesn't disappear off the face of the earth. Someone else buys it, and either lives in it or rents it out, or a bit of both.

Bed spaces on the rental market decrease. So supply is reduced and demand has increased for a smaller number of bed spaces. Great logic.

Inside Dublin’s Housing Crisis

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