Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Christy42 · 02-01-2019 10:22PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

The UK wanted all the parts it liked without any requirements. It was offered a Canada style deal or a customs union and threw a strop when it didn't get what it wanted. Certainly small details could have been negotiated but the idea of paying the price for the cheap item and getting the expensive item is off the radar for most shops selling you things.

Honestly this is all coming from the point that EU should have done something because the UK was never reasonable enough to compromise.

May moved in the direction of the EU because her initial stance was ridiculous. If you try and meet half way then the most ridiculous starting position wins. The Canada deal and all the others offered are already negotiated stances that involve the EU giving ground and receiving things in return as a result of past negotiations (for instance with Canada). Asking it to give further ground is ridiculous. Why should they be more willing to give the UK a better deal than Canada?

Because it's a much bigger economy, player and on their doorstep....

Whose economy is largely reliant on this deal.

Canada had a much more independent economy.

prawnsambo · 02-01-2019 10:23PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Of course there are no storm clouds gathering for the UK at the moment, just plain sailing ahead. Brexit delusion at its finest.

And apparently Corbyn thinks May should now return to Brussels and negotiate a new deal to include full customs union.

The breathtaking stupidity of these so-called leaders is staggering. Two and a half years later and they are opening their mouths to demonstrate how ignorant they are of the basics. Article 50 needs to be re-written to include a learning clause, so that it can't be triggered until you can actually demonstrate understanding of how it works and the basics of the EU.

Strazdas · 02-01-2019 10:32PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

And apparently Corbyn thinks May should now return to Brussels and negotiate a new deal to include full customs union.

The breathtaking stupidity of these so-called leaders is staggering. Two and a half years later and they are opening their mouths to demonstrate how ignorant they are of the basics. Article 50 needs to be re-written to include a learning clause, so that it can't be triggered until you can actually demonstrate understanding of how it works and the basics of the EU.

Corbyn has been an utter disaster, alas.

He doesn't seem to realise as Opposition leader, he has a duty to offer a radical alternative to what the government are proposing, especially on a deeply divisive issue like Brexit. Instead, he and May are having a battle to decide who can please the Leave voters most.

FrancieBrady · 02-01-2019 10:34PM

Didn't realise there were ongoing talks.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-update-mps-on-brexit-backstop-talks-next-week-v792ddq53?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2rY841otAyJJxqsebbv4Y9tlFfN5HX4SsA_DvH_XhHL5HyDErsPVq9K3U#Echobox=1546432476

Who has she been talking to?

cryptocurrency · 02-01-2019 10:37PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Of course there are no storm clouds gathering for the UK at the moment, just plain sailing ahead. Brexit delusion at its finest.

The UK has its own currency, make of that what you will

cryptocurrency · 02-01-2019 10:38PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't realise there were ongoing talks.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-update-mps-on-brexit-backstop-talks-next-week-v792ddq53?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2rY841otAyJJxqsebbv4Y9tlFfN5HX4SsA_DvH_XhHL5HyDErsPVq9K3U#Echobox=1546432476

Who has she been talking to?

Just a way of saving face for the EU when in reality any legal detail on backstop being temp means they did renegotiate

Leroy42 · 02-01-2019 10:39PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK has its own currency, make of that what you will

Yeah, so does Argentina. What is your point?

First Up · 02-01-2019 10:40PM

FrancieBrady wrote:

Didn't realise there were ongoing talks.

Talking to people on the phone doesn't constitute "talks".

prawnsambo · 02-01-2019 10:41PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't realise there were ongoing talks.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-update-mps-on-brexit-backstop-talks-next-week-v792ddq53?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2rY841otAyJJxqsebbv4Y9tlFfN5HX4SsA_DvH_XhHL5HyDErsPVq9K3U#Echobox=1546432476

Who has she been talking to?

Jeremy Hunt anyway. I've come to view these announcements as nothing other than for internal consumption. All the diplomacy seems to be the UK talking to the UK about itself.

cryptocurrency · 02-01-2019 10:41PM

First Up wrote: »

Talking to people on the phone doesn't constitute "talks".

If the backstop is now legally temp with a time limit or a unilateral leave option then the EU has folded.

cryptocurrency · 02-01-2019 10:42PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Jeremy Hunt anyway. I've come to view these announcements as nothing other than for internal consumption. All the diplomacy seems to be the UK talking to the UK about itself.

Its just a healthy reminder to the people, and an accurate one

prawnsambo · 02-01-2019 10:44PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

If the backstop is now legally temp with a time limit or a unilateral leave option then the EU has folded.

It's always had that. The backstop ends when the unicorn farms start producing.

10000maniacs · 02-01-2019 10:50PM

I have seen one interview (Channel 4 News I think) where a Brexiteer Tory was quizzed on how a no deal Brexit would work for aviation and JIT medication. He started spouting on about side deals with the EU.
So actually you want a deal? Yes!, er…. No.. (cough) A side deal is not really a deal.
Channel 4 are the only media outlet who ask hard questions.

cryptocurrency · 02-01-2019 11:02PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

I have seen one interview (Channel 4 News I think) where a Brexiteer Tory was quizzed on how a no deal Brexit would work for aviation and JIT medication. He started spouting on about side deals with the EU.
So actually you want a deal? Yes!, er…. No.. (cough) A side deal is not really a deal.
Channel 4 are the only media outlet who ask hard questions.

C4 never ask these questions of brexit supporting economists and just some random MP for Burnley or the like. Can't take C4 seriously at all.

Nody · 02-01-2019 11:06PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

I have seen one interview (Channel 4 News I think) where a Brexiteer Tory was quizzed on how a no deal Brexit would work for aviation and JIT medication. He started spouting on about side deals with the EU.
So actually you want a deal? Yes!, er…. No.. (cough) A side deal is not really a deal.

This has always been the case; and because it's last minute and EU are so desperate UK will get all it wants but in a series of mini deals instead because UK are such clever chaps in negotiation. Seriously; that's their thinking and has been since day 1; no one is arguing for a hard brexit per say; only a position of a hard brexit to get EU to panic and give in. I wonder if they put LSD in the water in Westminster or something but that's the general plan in general.

ancapailldorcha · 02-01-2019 11:14PM

Mod: Less of the one-liners please.

Imreoir2 · 02-01-2019 11:17PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK has its own currency, make of that what you will

As does Zimbabwe and Venezuela, what is your point?

In other words, I don't make very much of it at all.

Anthracite · 02-01-2019 11:20PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

C4 never ask these questions of brexit supporting economists and just some random MP for Burnley or the like. Can't take C4 seriously at all.

I can only think of 3 economists in the world who think Brexit is a good idea and they are all certfiable. The Brexiteers would complain about unfairly making their case look ridiculous if the media actually spoke to them.

prawnsambo · 02-01-2019 11:27PM

So this is what Hunt's being saying. May has been phoning EU leaders over the Christmas period (must have felt like Scrooge calling) to get more clarity... again.

“She has also been very straightforward about this – the EU has agreed the backstop is temporary and that’s a word they have agreed,” said Hunt.

“So what we’re saying, very simply, is we’re not asking for anything new but we are asking you to define what temporary means so we can have confidence we’re not going to be trapped in the customs union for ever against the wishes of the British people.”

ancapailldorcha · 02-01-2019 11:28PM

Several posts have been deleted and cards issued. No more talking down to other posters or backseat modding please.

Capt'n Midnight · 02-01-2019 11:37PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK has its own currency, make of that what you will

No it doesn't.

There are multiple versions of Sterling with only the English one being readily accepted throughout the "United" Kingdom.

There's even a Danish bank printing it's own Sterling in Northern Ireland.
#takebackcontrol

And it's worth a lot less against the Dollar or Euro than it used to be.
* Great if you want to buy UK assets with hard currency or want to reduce the cost of exports by devaluing - shame exports haven't increased that much considering.
* Rubbish if you have UK assets, like a home or pension or job that pays in Sterling or buy foreign stuff like food or holidays or electronics or clothes.

trellheim · 02-01-2019 11:37PM

“She has also been very straightforward about this – the EU has agreed the backstop is temporary and that’s a word they have agreed,” said Hunt.

“So what we’re saying, very simply, is we’re not asking for anything new but we are asking you to define what temporary means so we can have confidence we’re not going to be trapped in the customs union for ever against the wishes of the British people.”

Well I doubt the EU will open the deal up ; I havent seen anything from Sabine Weyand and Barnier for 4 weeks so the deals not reopened its just flowery language on the menu.

Headshot · 02-01-2019 11:39PM

trellheim wrote: »

Well I doubt the EU will open the deal up ; I havent seen anything from Sabine Weyand and Barnier for 4 weeks so the deals not reopened its just flowery language on the menu.

It's all rubbish that they need to get their deal across the line.

Anthracite · 02-01-2019 11:50PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And it's worth a lot less against the Dollar or Euro than it used to be.
* Great if you want to buy UK assets with hard currency or want to reduce the cost of exports by devaluing - shame exports haven't increased that much considering.

There are a couple of reasons for this - firstly UK manufacturing is on its knees, killed off by globalisation. It can't hope to compete with lower wage economies like China or highly skilled ones like Germany.

Secondly, it's very hard to sell services outside a single market - even within the EU single market, it's not perfectly frictionless. And guess what - trade deals generally don't include services.

Oh dear.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

* Rubbish if you have UK assets, like a home or pension or job that pays in Sterling or buy foreign stuff like food or holidays or electronics or clothes.

Well yeah. That's going to hurt.

trellheim · 02-01-2019 11:54PM

It's all rubbish that they need to get their deal across the line.

Remain will gleefully point out that nothing has changed and Arlene will still not be up for it.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-01-2019 12:07AM

Strazdas wrote: »

Corbyn has been an utter disaster, alas.

He doesn't seem to realise as Opposition leader, he has a duty to offer a radical alternative to what the government are proposing, especially on a deeply divisive issue like Brexit. Instead, he and May are having a battle to decide who can please the Leave voters most.

Right now an inanimate carbon rod could probably beat Corbyn's 16% approval rating on Brexit.

He doesn't even need to offer a radical alternative.

Right now the UK can retract Article 50 and "let us never speak of this again"
A big red reset button like Bobby Ewing in the shower.

Brexit is just a distraction from continued austerity.

EU costs £150m a week , it's not much in the overall UK economy.

Ditching Northern Ireland would save £500m a week a cost that would soar if you had to go back the the days when 27,000 troops couldn't stop smuggling across the hard border.

Ditching HS2 would save about £100Bn because saving 20 minutes for business leaders is such a priority in an era of video-conferencing.

Leroy42 · 03-01-2019 12:10AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

10000maniacs wrote: »

I have seen one interview (Channel 4 News I think) where a Brexiteer Tory was quizzed on how a no deal Brexit would work for aviation and JIT medication. He started spouting on about side deals with the EU.
So actually you want a deal? Yes!, er…. No.. (cough) A side deal is not really a deal.
Channel 4 are the only media outlet who ask hard questions.

C4 never ask these questions of brexit supporting economists and just some random MP for Burnley or the like. Can't take C4 seriously at all.

So you don't take the interviews with Brexit supporting MPs as valid? You recently said you wanted Johnson and Mogg to lead the cabinet!

On what basis do you feel it right to ignore an elected representative yet want to pay head to an unelected expert? I thought experts were bad.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-01-2019 12:21AM

First Up wrote: »

The EU and Turkey have been in a Customs Unions for more than 20 years. It allows free movement of industrial goods but not of agricultural products. Turkey aligns with EU standards and tariffs for the items covered under the agreement.

An EU - UK customs union would be negotiated case by case so the UK would have its input. However any such agreement would have to include the UK aligning with EU standards and tariffs.

Turkey can make suggestions but has to follow EU rules on the stuff covered by their CU.

So they will throw a wobbly if the UK are allowed a say in customers union rules that are forced upon Turkey.

Turkey makes almost as many vehicles as the UK. With a fraction of the labour costs. (and they buy nearly a billion dollars of parts from Bosch. )
http://www.invest.gov.tr/en-US/infocenter/publications/Documents/AUTOMOTIVE.INDUSTRY.pdf

Leroy42 · 03-01-2019 12:35AM

And therein lies the problem. The UK want everything specially tailored to them, which in a one v one situation I am sure the EU wouldn't have an issue with.

The problem is that the deal does not exist in a vacuum. Countries like Turkey, Switzerland and Norway are all watching not to mention the remaining 27 who will now be asked to cover the shortfall in funds .

The EU cannot simply give the UK what it wants without serious consequences to the EU.

But this is something the UK have completely failed to take account of. Not only are they only concerned about their own issues, I'm not sure they are even aware of the factors driving the Eid position.

cryptocurrency · 03-01-2019 01:17AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

And therein lies the problem. The UK want everything specially tailored to them, which in a one v one situation I am sure the EU wouldn't have an issue with.

The problem is that the deal does not exist in a vacuum. Countries like Turkey, Switzerland and Norway are all watching not to mention the remaining 27 who will now be asked to cover the shortfall in funds .

The EU cannot simply give the UK what it wants without serious consequences to the EU.

But this is something the UK have completely failed to take account of. Not only are they only concerned about their own issues, I'm not sure they are even aware of the factors driving the Eid position.

I'm sure they have taken this into account which is why the EU either gives it up or there is no deal.

Brexit Discussion Thread VI

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