What is China up to?

Tell me how · 31-12-2018 4:36pm #1

Saw this on Twitter earlier.

https://twitter.com/PGaillimh/status/1079715442619494401

What can their motivation be to take out such an ad in an Irish newspaper, I found the same content in a Malaysian paper from 3 days ago but it doesn't seem to have appeared elsewhere but maybe it is only in print editions and so not yet clear.

https://twitter.com/nurhidayatsardi/status/1079218718666682368

I have long wondered what conversations are going on amongst the leadership of the CPC given what has been happening in America and European politics over the last few years.

I would be surprised if they have not looked at the disharmony and considered how can they use this to profit in some way. This is explored in a book by someone with the somewhat confusing name of Elizabeth Economy who suggests; (link here)

....Xi is advancing an ambitious ideological vision: ‘A uniquely Chinese model’ that will ‘perhaps become a standard bearer for other countries disenchanted with the American and European models of liberal democracy.’

The ad does seem strange though, anyone have any ideas or greater insights in to the motivation around it?

Avatar MIA · 31-12-2018 4:41pm

China is a thousands of years old civilisation. They're good at the long game.

ressem · 31-12-2018 8:15pm

A few options. Xi has been receiving some criticism in newspapers as behaving more akin to Mao (authoritarian) than Deng (reformer). And the Chinese government might think that Trump's adversarial comments and actions require some alternative promotion. Heavily promoting the leader, not the country though? I doubt that will generate any positives for China.

The last few Chinese General Secretaries have stepped down. Term limits introduced by Deng have been weakened since, so looks like Xi will be around for a while.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/a-question-of-control-china-s-xi-jinping-faces-a-rare-rebuke-at-home-20180801-p4zuv1.html "China's Xi Jinping faces a rare rebuke at home"
https://www.ft.com/content/fbc63376-1ab2-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6 "China moves to silence outcry over abolition of Xi’s term limit"

Avatar MIA wrote: »

China is a thousands of years old civilisation. They're good at the long game.

That is 2 questionable statements, and dubious logic trying to join the two.

When a country is conquered; aristocracy / government system are swapped out, is it the same civilization?
If so, Iran / Persia are a millennia old civilization, but the country's people are having a hard time of it largely due to the old Shah getting cancer while he was trying to push his own version of great leap forward, and not delegating or transitioning.

fly_agaric · 31-12-2018 10:31pm

Think the whole piece is here (has same title and bits of the text I bothered to read seem to be same anyway).

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-12/17/c_137680665.htm

Content seems to read more as aimed at people in developing or non western countries (points about how great China and its system is etc compared to the "West" etc.)

"China's reform has inspired the world: developing countries can walk a new path to modernization that is different from the West. It breaks the "end of history" and "Western-centered" mentalities. The year 2018 also marks the 200th anniversary of Karl Marx's birth. China's successful practice has injected new vitality into the classic theory named after him.

As to why they would want it printed in an Irish paper - no ideas.
Perhaps one of the officials in charge of their propaganda/PR efforts spotted a bargain offer for placing the advert(orial) or something?

SEPT 23 1989 · 31-12-2018 10:35pm

Any big farm sales happening in January?

theguzman · 01-01-2019 11:42pm

He'll be lucky if he can cling to power when the Chinese debt bubble finally pops, this will make the Euro EU crisis and US Great Depression look like a mere blip. China consumed more cement in 3 years than the United States did in the entire twentieth century 1900-2000. We talk of ghost estates, they talk of ghost cities.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-01-2019 11:45pm

Chinese debt is 47% of GDP from what I see.

Infini · 02-01-2019 12:16am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Chinese debt is 47% of GDP from what I see.

How accurate is that though, not 100% on this but isn't China not exactly open with everything?

Eric Cartman · 02-01-2019 11:10am

China has been investing heavily for the last 20 years in building infrastructure in africa, roads, power stations, water supplies. They are getting things set up to use africa for large scale manufacturing when the world finally forces their hand to agree to environmental restrictions or human rights.

The chinese middle and upper class have been swerving communism for a while now by building malls and office buildings / apartment blocks in countries like canada where being an investor/opening a 'business' can help get you a visa.

Not sure how they link up to the newspaper ads but it seems like anyone with money in china is going elsewhere and the chinese themselves are setting up for africa to become the new whipping boy for manufacturing.

theguzman · 02-01-2019 11:18am

As China develops and their middle class grows it is increasingly getting harder to get slave labour for $50 - $100 per month, this is part of their pivot towards africa and in 30 years time "Made in Nigeria" or Kenya etc. will be the standard for tat.

They are using Infrastructure based debt to effectively colonise and control large parts of Africa, and taking control of strategic assets, and opening new trade routes to extract raw materials and import manufactured goods from China. Africa in return is getting some proper infrastructure for a change and since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

Eric Cartman · 02-01-2019 12:00pm

theguzman wrote: »

As China develops and their middle class grows it is increasingly getting harder to get slave labour for $50 - $100 per month, this is part of their pivot towards africa and in 30 years time "Made in Nigeria" or Kenya etc. will be the standard for tat.

They are using Infrastructure based debt to effectively colonise and control large parts of Africa, and taking control of strategic assets, and opening new trade routes to extract raw materials and import manufactured goods from China. Africa in return is getting some proper infrastructure for a change and since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

The sad reality is youre not wrong.

ancapailldorcha · 02-01-2019 12:24pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Not sure how they link up to the newspaper ads but it seems like anyone with money in china is going elsewhere and the chinese themselves are setting up for africa to become the new whipping boy for manufacturing.

The newspaper ads seem to be an attempt by the Chinese government to portray the country in a positive light and to deflect attention from its human rights abuses.

Tell me how · 02-01-2019 12:34pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The newspaper ads seem to be an attempt by the Chinese government to portray the country in a positive light and to deflect attention from its human rights abuses.

Yes but it's specifically a Xi Jinping ad as opposed to the 'country'. I know it could be argued they are viewed as effectively being the same entity..

Leaving that aside, why target Ireland?

Maybe similar ads appear elsewhere and we just don't hear of them.

Thargor · 02-01-2019 12:54pm

theguzman wrote: »

As China develops and their middle class grows it is increasingly getting harder to get slave labour for $50 - $100 per month, this is part of their pivot towards africa and in 30 years time "Made in Nigeria" or Kenya etc. will be the standard for tat.

They are using Infrastructure based debt to effectively colonise and control large parts of Africa, and taking control of strategic assets, and opening new trade routes to extract raw materials and import manufactured goods from China. Africa in return is getting some proper infrastructure for a change and since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

The level of corruption and waste in these projects is said to be off the scale even by African standards, billions disappearing with nothing to show for it. It might be too much even for China, then again if they want something in Africa they'll probably get it, I doubt Trump even knows about Belt and Road.

Looks like China will be seizing the port of Mombasa soon, one of the biggest ports in the world and one of Kenyas main infrastructure assets, poof, it belongs to Xi and his crew now, expect to see a lot more of that.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-01-2019 3:16pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes but it's specifically a Xi Jinping ad as opposed to the 'country'. I know it could be argued they are viewed as effectively being the same entity..

Leaving that aside, why target Ireland?

Maybe similar ads appear elsewhere and we just don't hear of them.

China isn’t really producing an ideological system yet to break up the west however there’s one potentially ready made - a pan Eurasian system which respects national sovereignty.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-01-2019 3:16pm

Thargor wrote: »

The level of corruption and waste in these projects is said to be off the scale even by African standards, billions disappearing with nothing to show for it. It might be too much even for China, then again if they want something in Africa they'll probably get it, I doubt Trump even knows about Belt and Road.

Looks like China will be seizing the port of Mombasa soon, one of the biggest ports in the world and one of Kenyas main infrastructure assets, poof, it belongs to Xi and his crew now, expect to see a lot more of that.

What do you mean by seizing?

ancapailldorcha · 02-01-2019 3:29pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes but it's specifically a Xi Jinping ad as opposed to the 'country'. I know it could be argued they are viewed as effectively being the same entity..

Leaving that aside, why target Ireland?

Maybe similar ads appear elsewhere and we just don't hear of them.

Xi Jinping is an authoritarian leader and unlikely to be replaced soon so in some regards, he and China are one and the same.

Targeting Ireland is just part of their pan-Western soft power brand-building strategy. Ireland is modern Anglophone nation with ties to the US and an EU member state.

Tell me how · 02-01-2019 3:36pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Xi Jinping is an authoritarian leader and unlikely to be replaced soon so in some regards, he and China are one and the same.

Targeting Ireland is just part of their pan-Western soft power brand-building strategy. Ireland is modern Anglophone nation with ties to the US and an EU member state.

Yes, I can understand that. I am wondering if this is part of some rolling maintenance type propaganda or more part of a specific media project which will coincide with some geopolitical shenanigans.

Thargor · 02-01-2019 4:12pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What do you mean by seizing?

On mobile so sorry if this is a crappy link:

https://www.ippmedia.com/en/business/will-china-seize-mombasa-port-if-kenya-can%E2%80%99t-pay-back-its-loans

Basically lend/invest a few billion to an African government for various projects, watch that money disappear into a hole with nothing to show for it, call in the loan and force repayment in land/infrastructure/natural resources. The port of Mombasa is just one of the more famous ones because of its size/importance.

4068ac1elhodqr · 02-01-2019 4:31pm

Will be interesting to see what their reaction will be when further loans and projects in Africa go pear shaped.
Awash with corruption, perhaps they entered Africa thinking it would be poor and orderly like China was 20yrs ago.

More worringly is Rear Admiral Lou Yuan's offer to sink two Carriers if sea disputes with Wash can't be settled by talk.

Of course they're no match (currently) for the US, but if they built x13 more skyscrapers than the US in 2018
Who's to say they won't be able to also build x13 more flightdecks, subs and hypersonic craft by 2028.

fly_agaric · 02-01-2019 7:44pm

Kailani Hissing Piano wrote: »

Will be interesting to see what their reaction will be when further loans and projects in Africa go pear shaped.
Awash with corruption, perhaps they entered Africa thinking it would be poor and orderly like China was 20yrs ago....
Of course they're no match (currently) for the US

I doubt any African or Asian countries will try and "cheat" them somehow or expropriate assets if agreements go wrong. Before end of the next decade they'll probably have several super-carrier fleets of their own.

I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if they are not occasionally sending the legions out to troublesome out of the way places that irk the "Empire", just as the US has done ever since it has been a global superpower.

fly_agaric · 04-01-2019 11:24pm

Was reading a thread on Reddit (of all places) today that mentioned the advertorial was published in papers in Poland and Portugal also so publication here in Independent must be just a part of their coordinated global PR efforts for China/Xi Jinping rather than anything special.
Will not link directly to it, but there were photos of adverts linked in the thread.

Portugal - https://i.imgur.com/RvR6UcD.jpg
Poland - https://i.imgur.com/1zA6CoR.jpg

Also mentioned was an article from December on the Guardian website I had not seen about Chinese state propaganda/PR/influence campaigns in general (it is one of their "long read" ones so it's big, have not read it all yet but it looks interesting).

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/dec/07/china-plan-for-global-media-dominance-propaganda-xi-jinping

Chris_Heilong · 13-01-2019 7:04am

As regards African countries, setting up large scale manufacturing might actually boost their economies and give more jobs to the population that is growing at experiential rates leading to mass unemployment, From what I have seen personally in real life there are a lot of Africans being trained in China as Doctors and medical students, I saw them there in Shenyang last year, there were around 30 renting in the same apartment block I was staying in, so there are certainly positives.

However Xi Ping himself has posters all over China with old style slogans and a big picture of himself beside them about how great China is doing(very a kin to Mao) which in my opinion is a step backwards as in the past they were moving away from Soviet style Communism and now with this president it is on the rise again. He like Putin is also not going anywhere as he president for life.

Tell me how · 13-01-2019 11:15am

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

As regards African countries, setting up large scale manufacturing might actually boost their economies and give more jobs to the population that is growing at experiential rates leading to mass unemployment, From what I have seen personally in real life there are a lot of Africans being trained in China as Doctors and medical students, I saw them there in Shenyang last year, there were around 30 renting in the same apartment block I was staying in, so there are certainly positives.

However Xi Ping himself has posters all over China with old style slogans and a big picture of himself beside them about how great China is doing(very a kin to Mao) which in my opinion is a step backwards as in the past they were moving away from Soviet style Communism and now with this president it is on the rise again. He like Putin is also not going anywhere as he president for life.

So why the full page ad in an Irish newspaper?
Maybe it was no more than the Chinese embassy exhausting their budget before the year end.

Danzy · 13-01-2019 11:22am

Thargor wrote: »

The level of corruption and waste in these projects is said to be off the scale even by African standards, billions disappearing with nothing to show for it. It might be too much even for China, then again if they want something in Africa they'll probably get it, I doubt Trump even knows about Belt and Road.

Looks like China will be seizing the port of Mombasa soon, one of the biggest ports in the world and one of Kenyas main infrastructure assets, poof, it belongs to Xi and his crew now, expect to see a lot more of that.

The money is disappearing to buy people and parties.

"Buying the Leaders, building the roads" should be the marketing slogan for China in Africa.

Mugabe was overthrown with their blessing, maybe at their command.

Danzy · 13-01-2019 11:24am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What do you mean by seizing?

They loan money to States, knowing it can't be paid back and take the asset instead. Happened in Sri Lanka,

snotboogie · 13-01-2019 11:37am

theguzman wrote: »

As China develops and their middle class grows it is increasingly getting harder to get slave labour for $50 - $100 per month, this is part of their pivot towards africa and in 30 years time "Made in Nigeria" or Kenya etc. will be the standard for tat.

They are using Infrastructure based debt to effectively colonise and control large parts of Africa, and taking control of strategic assets, and opening new trade routes to extract raw materials and import manufactured goods from China. Africa in return is getting some proper infrastructure for a change and since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

Made in China hasn't been a symbol of tat for nearly two decades. The vast majority of high end consumer electronics now get made in China. It's a really outdated mindset.

sandbelter · 13-01-2019 1:48pm

Quite simple, China views itself as resuming its position as the "Middle kingdom".

This may sound trite, but it's vision of the world sees China as the only sovereign state in a world that "kowtows" and knows its place in the Chinese pecking order.

It's diametrically opposite to the western order of sovereign states which is based in turn on the Treaty of Westphalia. This is at the heart of the China sea dispute, Chinese views itself as the sole sovereign, the US talk about law of the sea ....two fundamentally different visions of how the plant should work.

if you want to get an idea of how violent this can be .....just produce a map of India that includes Arunchal Pradesh, most Chinese have never seen a map that recognizes Arunchal Pradesh as part of India, just google it and compare the borders of the different maps.

I think conflict is near with China, much nearer that any Europeans (except the Russians) understand. Xi is actively positioning himself along side Mao (absorbed Tibet) and Deng (absorbed Hong Kong and Macau) by giving a 2020 ultimatum for reunification to Taiwan. Taiwan is no mood to unify with China, the Chinese arrived in Taiwan after the Dutch settled South Africa and occupied Taiwan. the Taiwanese feel the same about the Chinese as the Irish feel about incorporating into the UK.

Xi urging china to prepare for a long battle is echoing Mao's thoughts by promoted "protracted war." Namely, avoid major decisive battles and employ "mobile warfare" over an extended and fluid front to gradually break the morale and combat effectiveness of the enemy....aka Chinese citizen flotilla in the South China sea.

Not a promising outlook.

theguzman · 13-01-2019 1:49pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Made in China hasn't been a symbol of tat for nearly two decades. The vast majority of high end consumer electronics now get made in China. It's a really outdated mindset.

By Western companies and Western Innovators, the home-grown Chinese stuff is starting to catch up mainly by copying and stealing copyright.

snotboogie · 13-01-2019 4:49pm

theguzman wrote: »

By Western companies and Western Innovators, the home-grown Chinese stuff is starting to catch up mainly by copying and stealing copyright.

Hardly, the vast majority of consumer electronics are coming from Asian companies. China is probably still a bit behind Korea, Japan and maybe Taiwan but is miles ahead of any western country in terms of indigenous companies making hardware. Lenovo, Huawei, Haier, Xiaomi and Oneplus are not catching up, they have caught up and in some cases have overtaken. When you get away from the consumer brands and further up the supply chain Chinese companies dominate even more.

13-01-2019 4:59pm

They've been buying up a lot of ports along key shipping lanes, including in Europe. I would not be surprised to see them make a play for a large deep water port in Ireland.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/02/why-is-china-buying-up-europes-ports/

I'm hearing stories of Chinese people opening shops in villages throughout Africa. It really does seem like they are embarking on a big expansionary strategy where they conquer through commerce rather than war.

13-01-2019 5:28pm

Tell me how wrote: »

So why the full page ad in an Irish newspaper?
Maybe it was no more than the Chinese embassy exhausting their budget before the year end.

Big Chinese investment coming to Dundalk in the next few years. Around 400 jobs and representatives have already been into DKIT talking to students about working there. Weird ad, but trying to sell themselves to the population would be a possibility?

sandbelter · 13-01-2019 9:10pm

Tell me how wrote: »

So why the full page ad in an Irish newspaper?
Maybe it was no more than the Chinese embassy exhausting their budget before the year end.

There's also an element they are positioning post Brexit. With the UK off the premises the perception outside of Europe is there is greater potential for EU and US divisions, especially over security.

In short, in a world where the US and China are going head to head, Europe is seen as being in play.

I note that similar add appeared elsewhere in the EU.

In the latest posturing in the pacific, the US has permanently deployed B2 bombers to Hawaii.

CrankyHaus · 13-01-2019 9:55pm

sandbelter wrote: »

I think conflict is near with China, much nearer that any Europeans (except the Russians) understand. Xi is actively positioning himself along side Mao (absorbed Tibet) and Deng (absorbed Hong Kong and Macau) by giving a 2020 ultimatum for reunification to Taiwan. Taiwan is no mood to unify with China, the Chinese arrived in Taiwan after the Dutch settled South Africa and occupied Taiwan. the Taiwanese feel the same about the Chinese as the Irish feel about incorporating into the UK.

Not a promising outlook.

Hong Kong was returned to China when the original lease expired and negotiations to return Macau were commenced by Portugal after the fall of the Fascist Salazar regime in 1974. Both territories were relics of colonialism. To present their negotiated return to mainland Chinese authority as some ominous symbol of China warmongering is crazy.

sandbelter · 13-01-2019 10:12pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Both territories were relics of colonialism. To present their negotiated return to mainland Chinese authority as some ominous symbol of China warmongering is crazy.

the point I was trying to make is that strong Chinese leaders are seen as returning parts of China either by force (Tibet) or negotiation (Hong Kong) that are historically seen as part of China. That's the internal benchmark Xi will be judged against by the Central Bureau.

The new territories were leased, Hong Kong itself was a colony. There was no obligation on the UK to return it and it was financial self sufficient.

For the record the real legacy of colonialism in Asia is Siberia and the Russian Far East.

CrankyHaus · 14-01-2019 10:06am

sandbelter wrote: »

the point I was trying to make is that strong Chinese leaders are seen as returning parts of China either by force (Tibet) or negotiation (Hong Kong) that are historically seen as part of China. That's the internal benchmark Xi will be judged against by the Central Bureau.

The new territories were leased, Hong Kong itself was a colony. There was no obligation on the UK to return it and it was financial self sufficient.

For the record the real legacy of colonialism in Asia is Siberia and the Russian Far East.

Fair enough, and I don't disagree that Irredentism is a strong force in China. I just can't place the peaceful transfer of Hong Kong and Macau's sovereignty on a par with the annexation of Tibet. For comparison India seized Goa by force in the 1960s yet generally isn't seen as an expansionist threat to the international order.

I'm not convinced that the Chinese will invade Taiwan any time soon either. They lack an amphibious fleet of the scale required, American response is a genuine risk, reducing Taiwan's defences will take time, the economic disruption would be considerable at a global level and far greater for China itself. I wouldn't rule out an opportunistic grab in the right circumstances but a rigid plan to have successfully invaded Taiwan by a certain year seems unlikely.

sandbelter · 14-01-2019 1:17pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

I'm not convinced that the Chinese will invade Taiwan any time soon either.

I hope not and I'm still putting faith in the idea that they are sun Tzu's disciples and won't do anything rash, but there's way too much war talk in Beijing atm, last time we witnessed this kind of bellicose language and hysteria was in Washington in the early 2000's and we all know what happened then.

theguzman · 14-01-2019 1:29pm

China needs external enemies to deflect public attention away from the Debt crisis within China and unite the people behind the current Chinese leadership.

Spannerplank · 14-01-2019 8:51pm

theguzman wrote: »

As China develops and their middle class grows it is increasingly getting harder to get slave labour for $50 - $100 per month, this is part of their pivot towards africa and in 30 years time "Made in Nigeria" or Kenya etc. will be the standard for tat.

They are using Infrastructure based debt to effectively colonise and control large parts of Africa, and taking control of strategic assets, and opening new trade routes to extract raw materials and import manufactured goods from China. Africa in return is getting some proper infrastructure for a change and since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

Anybody who has the arrogance to aannounce that Africans are incapable of self governance and are better off under foreign occupation really has no clue.

James Brown · 15-01-2019 7:40pm

theguzman wrote: »

As China develops and their middle class grows it is increasingly getting harder to get slave labour for $50 - $100 per month, this is part of their pivot towards africa and in 30 years time "Made in Nigeria" or Kenya etc. will be the standard for tat.

They are using Infrastructure based debt to effectively colonise and control large parts of Africa, and taking control of strategic assets, and opening new trade routes to extract raw materials and import manufactured goods from China. Africa in return is getting some proper infrastructure for a change and since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

Africa is a continent. It has 50 plus countries. Also We weren't much of a prize pig ourselves in 2011. Add to that NGOs, Mining companies and Bono having their way with some of them, it's a wonder any of them, (the poorer ones) get the chance to try make a go of it.
Sounds like more of the same from China TBH.

Avatar MIA · 15-01-2019 8:09pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Africa is a continent. It has 50 plus countries. Also We weren't much of a prize pig ourselves in 2011. Add to that NGOs, Mining companies and Bono having their way with some of them, it's a wonder any of them, (the poorer ones) get the chance to try make a go of it.
Sounds like more of the same from China TBH.

From the 50 plus countries which would you highlight as particularly well run, clue - I don't think SA is going to make the list. As compared to 2011 Ireland, there's still no comparison worthy of serious debate.

No idea what you mean 're Bono .

James Brown · 15-01-2019 9:19pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

From the 50 plus countries which would you highlight as particularly well run, clue - I don't think SA is going to make the list. As compared to 2011 Ireland, there's still no comparison worthy of serious debate.

No idea what you mean 're Bono .

Simply pointing out that Africa isn't a country. It's not very detailed to talk about Libya, Tunisia and Gambia like they are interchangeable.

Having a pop at Bono. The NOGs and mining companies have a major role to play for the running of some areas. It's too simplistic to state 'they (Africa) are completely incapable of governing themselves'. And I pointed out we all have our flaws when it comes to running our affairs.
Then I said I didn't think China was going to do much more than what serves it's own purposes with what ever region they set up shop in. Fair enough?

Spannerplank · 15-01-2019 9:20pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

From the 50 plus countries which would you highlight as particularly well run, clue - I don't think SA is going to make the list. As compared to 2011 Ireland, there's still no comparison worthy of serious debate.

No idea what you mean 're Bono .

Well run? Are you serious?
How can they be well run when they are still under the jackboot of colonial intervention and the IMF?

Are you aware that nearly every country in Western Africa is under the control of the French Central Bank? Their currency, their economy, their interest rates? They have to deposit their reserves in French banks and if they want any of it to use, it's LOANED to them? Their own money!

Are you aware of that? Of course not. You just think that Africans can't muster the brains to grow a potato or milk a cow.

Oh and just so nobody comp!ains, the French Foreign Legion are holed up locally to "politely" dissuade any grumbling.

Avatar MIA · 15-01-2019 11:17pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Then I said I didn't think China was going to do much more than what serves it's own purposes with what ever region they set up shop in. Fair enough?

Ah, yeah. Hard to see how long term good will come of that.

Avatar MIA · 15-01-2019 11:19pm

Spannerplank wrote: »

Well run? Are you serious?
How can they be well run when they are still under the jackboot of colonial intervention and the IMF?

Are you aware that nearly every country in Western Africa is under the control of the French Central Bank? Their currency, their economy, their interest rates? They have to deposit their reserves in French banks and if they want any of it to use, it's LOANED to them? Their own money!

Are you aware of that? Of course not. You just think that Africans can't muster the brains to grow a potato or milk a cow.

Oh and just so nobody comp!ains, the French Foreign Legion are holed up locally to "politely" dissuade any grumbling.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. Well run? Who said that?

James Brown · 16-01-2019 2:56pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Ah, yeah. Hard to see how long term good will come of that.

Exactly. It's not like they'll set up a functioning democracy now will they? They'll have a nice little corrupt legislative body of their choosing on the take. That will be a fresh new thing for the area I'm sure.
China have a great rep all the same...

Spannerplank · 16-01-2019 9:57pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Not sure what point you're trying to make. Well run? Who said that?

You did.

sandbelter · 17-01-2019 4:29am

Spannerplank wrote: »

Well run? Are you serious?
How can they be well run when they are still under the jackboot of colonial intervention and the IMF?

I grew up in Zambia.... outside Lusaka to be precise, and I've heard the what-did-the-West-ever-do-besides-exploit-us part, followed by a version of the China-has-always-been-our-friend speech more times than I'd care to talk about.

This the Zambian perspective:

https://www.zambiawatchdog.com/zambia-veering-toward-chinese-model-oppression/

Zambia didn't decolonialise just to replace one master with another.

CrankyHaus · 17-01-2019 12:00pm

An interesting example of Chinese companies looking to buy up potentially strategic dual use infrastructure. This time it's the Subic bay port facility, until 1992 one of the US Navy's biggest bases in the Pacific.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/01/16/chinese-companies-have-their-eyes-on-what-used-to-be-the-us-navys-biggest-base-in-the-pacific/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Socialflow+NAV

Avatar MIA · 17-01-2019 1:19pm

Spannerplank wrote: »

You did.

Can you quote where I said that?

James Brown · 17-01-2019 3:45pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Can you quote where I said that?

You piggy backed in on another post saying:

theguzman wrote: »

...since they are completely incapable of governing themselves due to endemic corruption it is working well and the entire Continent would be far better off under Colonial rule whether it is from China or wherever.

I disagreed pointing out there were 50 plus countries on the continent that weren't interchangeable and you came in with...

Avatar MIA wrote: »

From the 50 plus countries which would you highlight as particularly well run, clue - I don't think SA is going to make the list. As compared to 2011 Ireland, there's still no comparison worthy of serious debate.

No idea what you mean 're Bono .

Now that reads like you agreed with the other poster but if you didn't you weren't very clear.

What is China up to?

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