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Legislation to make organ donations automatic

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24567…21

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    #32
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ants09 wrote: »
    You can't be on a list by default ie organ donation and then have to opt out if you don't want to donate your organs.

    GDPR is very specific, you have to be given the option to opt in not opt out.
    Ah you're definitely on a wind up cause it's been stated several times that you're not on a list by default, you're only put on it when you state your preference.

    That was fun, you had me going there!


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    #33
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    There is a lot of misunderstanding of GDPR. The opt in thing is simply that consent must be freely given. Its explicitly legal under GDPR to store data to comply with other laws so if they bring in this and it says to opt out you go on the DB its covered 2 fold

    1- your consenting to your details being stored as opting out of organ donation and
    2 - the law would require a data base of opt outs be maintained.


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    #34
    ants09
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭ants09


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    There is no list of organ donors. There is a list of those who don't want to donate.

    Doh
    So there is a list but for opt out.
    🀔 yea gdpr still applies and you can't opt out to be on this list


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    #35
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Well the state effectively has a significant share in everything you own, earn or inherit. Now they own your corpse as well or at least the bits they want. ;)

    Sorry but I just have to post this ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp-pU8TFsg0


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    #36
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,249 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    ants09 wrote: »
    Simon Harris is in cloud co co land and yes he bring this to the dial.
    The cloud has a county council now?

    What does the dial go up to?

    Etc.


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    #37
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    How "dead" do you need to be before donations are considered?

    Who makes the decision? There have been plenty of "dead" people that have gone on to survive after months in a coma.

    Are doctors going to start recommending turning of life support machines because little Johnny in another ward needs a liver?

    It should remain an opt in thing only. Do they still have organ donor cards? Not seen them in years.


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    #38
    ants09
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭ants09


    Age of consent to medical treatment and to processing of personal data

    Consent to treatment

    GDPR does not affect the legal age at which patients can consent to medical treatment. A minor aged 16 can consent to medical treatment.

    Patients over 18 are entitled to consent to psychiatric treatment, organ or tissue donation or participation in medical research.


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    #39
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    How "dead" do you need to be before donations are considered?
    Explanatory video two posts above yours.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ants09 wrote: »
    Doh
    So there is a list but for opt out.
    🀔 yea gdpr still applies and you can't opt out to be on this list

    I never stated there was no list. I was explaining the other poster's comment as it seemed like you had trouble understanding what he was saying. I now realise you're being pedantic, at best. See rew's post above. Clearly you don't understand GDPR.

    This is new legislation that is being introduced. What would happen if, say, they passed legislation to lower the drink driving limit further and the courts were full of shams saying they never signed up for the new limits?


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    #41
    Hercule Poirot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,231 ✭✭✭Hercule Poirot


    I'm guessing this stems from the majority of people who have a "sure I'm dead, what I do care? they can have them if they want" attitude but don't actively register or get an organ donor card

    My issue is that there is a responsibility from the state to inform everyone living in this country of the new status quo, and that's the part I just know they will make a balls of


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    #42
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ants09 wrote: »
    GDPR does not affect the legal age at which patients can consent to medical treatment.
    Of course it doesn't, because it only has to do with processing and storing data. The clue is in the name.


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    #43
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    How "dead" do you need to be before donations are considered?

    Who makes the decision? There have been plenty of "dead" people that have gone on to survive after months in a coma.

    Are doctors going to start recommending turning of life support machines because little Johnny in another ward needs a liver?

    It should remain an opt in thing only. Do they still have organ donor cards? Not seen them in years.

    Why do you think doctors will decide to kill you to save someone else. They're not on commission.


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    #44
    ants09
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭ants09


    endacl wrote: »
    The cloud has a county council now?

    What does the dial go up to?

    Etc.

    Meant cuckoo

    But hey maybe county council of endacl lol


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    #45
    ants09
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭ants09


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Of course it doesn't, because it only has to do with processing and storing data. The clue is in the name.

    Read the rest off the message

    The clue is in the full message not just the first 5 words


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    #46
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Why do you think doctors will decide to kill you to save someone else. They're not on commission.

    Yet.. Watch the oath go out the window.


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rew wrote: »
    There is a lot of misunderstanding of GDPR. The opt in thing is simply that consent must be freely given. Its explicitly legal under GDPR to store data to comply with other laws so if they bring in this and it says to opt out you go on the DB its covered 2 fold

    1- your consenting to your details being stored as opting out of organ donation and
    2 - the law would require a data base of opt outs be maintained.

    Any response to this post, ants09?


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    #48
    Hercule Poirot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,231 ✭✭✭Hercule Poirot


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Yet.. Watch the oath go out the window.

    I highly doubt doctors will murder patients to get organs


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    #49
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ants09 wrote: »
    Read the rest off the message

    The clue is in the full message not just the first 5 words
    The middle 15 words actually but who's counting.

    What has the rest of that post got to do with data protection or organ donation? Unless you think organ donation is a form of medical treatment for the donor, in which case you're in for a surprise...


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    #50
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Any response to this post, ants09?

    Its not clear cut. We all remember the emails when GDPR came in. There were 2 versions from sites etc..

    1 - If you do not reply to this we will remove you from our list

    2- If you do not reply we presume you are happy for us to retain your details.

    BBC Watchdog did a piece about it it and both are legal.

    There is a false assumption that GDRP made companies/institutions wipe your data.

    You still need to opt out in some cases.


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    #51
    brendanwalsh
    Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    The NOK always have to give consent for organ harvesting so this plan is a waste of time.


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    #52
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Opting out of organ donation as a possibility when you die is not the same thing as opting out of a database. It's the opposite in fact.

    Here the English language is being used to describe one's wish to not donate their organs. The term "opt-out" is used. It's unfortunate that this is also a term used in the GDPR regulations, the most misunderstood piece of law in recent years that I'm aware of, and so people are conflating the use of the terms in a way that doesn't make sense.

    I'm sorry if this sounds really condescending but I can't put it any simpler.

    It's all moot anyway because if they actually did want to create an opt-out database for some reason they could just make some legislation to make it essentially exempt from data protection regulations.


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    #53
    Gryffindor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Gryffindor


    So many misconceptions here...

    Firstly, consent is only one basis for lawful processing of personal data. There are several others under the GDPR.

    Consent isn't required where there is a legislative basis for the processing (GDPR 6(1)c) or where it serves a task carried out in the public interest (6(1)e). That's why the GDPR really only applies to private companies in practice. Either or both or these grounds would be sufficient for processing without any need for consent of the data subject.

    (That's assuming organ donation doesn't come within the definition of health data which is considered sensitive, in which case the corresponding grounds in Article 9 would apply instead, but the point still stands - consent is not required)

    On a sidenote, while pre-ticked boxes are probably 'banned', taking affirmative consent to mean there can be no 'opt out' structures is highly presumptive. We have absolutely no idea exactly how those provisions will be interpreted until the CJEU judgements start coming in the next few years.


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    #54
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Maybe introduce something where if you aren’t willing to donate you shouldn’t receive any organs. Eye for an eye etc


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    #55
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    How "dead" do you need to be before donations are considered?

    Who makes the decision? There have been plenty of "dead" people that have gone on to survive after months in a coma.

    Are doctors going to start recommending turning of life support machines because little Johnny in another ward needs a liver?

    It should remain an opt in thing only. Do they still have organ donor cards? Not seen them in years.

    My concern exactly; thank you for putting it so well. As an older person my trust in HSE to organise anything is in the minus range.

    I am in the process of appointing someone to hold my Enduring Power of Attorney which will cover this. They already have my Power of Attorney.


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    #56
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Yet.. Watch the oath go out the window.

    Irish doctors do not take the Hippocratic Oath.


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    #57
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,758 ✭✭✭cython


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Opting out of organ donation as a possibility when you die is not the same thing as opting out of a database. It's the opposite in fact.

    Here the English language is being used to describe one's wish to not donate their organs. The term "opt-out" is used. It's unfortunate that this is also a term used in the GDPR regulations, the most misunderstood piece of law in recent years that I'm aware of, and so people are conflating the use of the terms in a way that doesn't make sense.

    I'm sorry if this sounds really condescending but I can't put it any simpler.

    It's all moot anyway because if they actually did want to create an opt-out database for some reason they could just make some legislation to make it essentially exempt from data protection regulations.

    This. If it makes it easier for people to get their head around then just consider putting your name in this database or on this list as opting in to retention of your organs, and opting in to said database.


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    #58
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    If people being killed off for their organs is such a big problem, it should be easy to show from countries that already have opt out that it's happening..........

    Or is it just Irish doctors that are hovering with ice cream scoops for the law to be enacted?

    According to the wiki article on the subject, Germany, with and opt in policy has a 12% donation rate vs Austria with 99.98% and its opt out policy.

    Surely if the doctors need to be killing people off for their organs its be in the places where only 12% are donating?


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    #59
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    How "dead" do you need to be before donations are considered?

    Who makes the decision? There have been plenty of "dead" people that have gone on to survive after months in a coma.

    Are doctors going to start recommending turning of life support machines because little Johnny in another ward needs a liver?

    It should remain an opt in thing only. Do they still have organ donor cards? Not seen them in years.

    Priority in any hospital is to keep a patient alive. When pronounced dead, then your organs are taken

    While I think its a good idea and will save many lives something doesnt sit right with the idea that the government has the automatic right to take your organs after you die unless you specifically say they cant


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    #60
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    How long before this is monetised?? Private hospital in France needs a liver/kidneys/lungs and is willing to pay top dollar for it. Everyone should have bodily autonomy and shouldn't be taken apart like a scrapped car if they don't want to. They should not have to "opt out".


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    #61
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    How long before this is monetised?? Private hospital in France needs a liver/kidneys/lungs and is willing to pay top dollar for it. Everyone should have bodily autonomy and shouldn't be taken apart like a scrapped car if they don't want to. They should not have to "opt out".

    How long? About the same length of time it took for other countries to monetise it. The info should be handy to get so I'll let you do the research...........


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