Is anybody mourning the loss of Manly /Womanly arts?

Sardonicat · 30-12-2018 04:39PM

DS86DS wrote: »

Sardonicat wrote: »

Do you find yourself in that prediciment often?

Thankfully not. Like most people I enjoy the joys of Irish farmed meat.

Oh, you think I'm a vegetarian!
I don't think hunters are serial killers. You can stop feeling offended now.

Sardonicat · 30-12-2018 04:42PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Our little granddaughter follows her granda around" fixing " with him . She brings her little wooden tool set and uses her screwdriver for everything !
My point is she knows things are fixable and this will stay with her . Mind you she now thinks Granda can fix absolutely everything even the unfixable plastic toys !

Just you wait till she discovers things are breakable with her little wooden tool kit.

DS86DS · 30-12-2018 04:43PM

batgoat wrote: »

Interestingly the Sentinel tribe that came to prominence a few months back are entirely vegetarian so tribal communities weren't always meat eaters.

Anyway, my view on hunting is it's all good as long as it serves a purpose. Eg eating I have major problems when the purpose is for the sake of cruelty though. Eg foxhunting or heading off to Africa to engage in big game hunting. Particularly when they're endangered.

If you are referring to North Sentinel Island in the Indian Ocean, I can see that they might have been reduced to vegetarianism....as it's a small island and after 50,000 years there are no edible species left. So perhaps the tribe there have been left with no option.

As for foxes and rabbits. If anything, particularly the latter are overpopulating the countryside.

They are also major pests on farms, with foxes killing chickens and other small livestock......and rabbits destroying crops like cabbage. Give rabbits enough time to regenerate with a hunting ban, and the countryside will be swamped with them.

sk8erboii · 30-12-2018 04:45PM

DS86DS wrote: »

If you are referring to North Sentinel Island in the Indian Ocean, I can see that they might have been reduced to vegetarianism....as it's a small island and after 50,000 years there are no edible species left. So perhaps the tribe there have been left with no option.

As for foxes and rabbits. If anything, particularly the latter are overpopulating the countryside.

They are also major pests on farms, with foxes killing chickens and other small livestock......and rabbits destroying crops like cabbage. Give rabbits enough time to regenerate with a hunting ban, and the countryside will be swamped with them.

Damn... so they never invented fishing?

iamwhoiam · 30-12-2018 04:47PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

Just you wait till she discovers things are breakable with her little wooden tool kit.

Haha ! No its too precious to bash with !

Sardonicat · 30-12-2018 05:05PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Sardonicat wrote: »

Just you wait till she discovers things are breakable with her little wooden tool kit.

Haha ! No its too precious to bash with !

Dainty DIY

Arbie · 30-12-2018 05:25PM

looksee wrote: »

I saw an article recently where a surgeon was bemoaning the fact that student doctors had no dexterity skills and it was very difficult to teach them to stitch up a wound as they had no experience of using needles/tools.

This was a widely quoted article which was based solely on the personal opinion of 1 surgeon. He offered zero evidence, only anecdote.

Dozens of senior surgeons criticised him, saying they found the opposite was true. And they offered evidence to back up their personal experiences.

Roger Hassenforder · 30-12-2018 05:41PM

JayZeus wrote: »

It's not an intelligent practice to defer to an elder on the sole basis that they are in fact, elder. My intelligence has it's limits, but it's at least sufficient to allow me think critically and only a fool would accept that being old makes one more wise than a younger person may be. That's the point I make.

As for a 'modicum of respect', I'm showing it. You and others who think an older person deserves protection from robust criticism, as though they're unable to think and speak clearly, deserve 'respect' in the form of polite acceptance or a refusal to engage are at odds with what you ask of me.

Old or young, when you're wrong, you're wrong. And generally speaking, younger generations don't need guidance from old people with foolish notions about themselves and how relevant their experiences of old may be today. Unless you've proven the value of your experiences to others in a way that's qualifiable, you should be prepared to have some push-back from people with a healthy skepticism for 'simple rules in life'.

I dont actually disagree with you, the fallacy of appeal to age or tradition is a danger. Of course someone isnt automatically right because of their age; only a fool would defer to someone merely because they're older. But that doesnt mean they're wrong because they're old. They may be obsolete. There may be a better way of doing something.

But we all think we're smarter and more clever than our predecessoers. In certain aspects we are. We're supposed to be, Its the way it must be.Its how we have evolved to a certain extend, bettering what we've learnt from our teachers and mentors, yet what is a mentor relationship built on?

i'd urge caution in throwing the geriatric out with the spongebath water. There is a "wisdom" of life, of people, of resilience and figuring things our that (usually) comes with age. Something you can use to better yourself. Not necessarily intelligence. A foolish notion can arrive irrespective of age. Its not confined to the elderly.

Hence, my simple rule. Respect the elderly. They might be wrong as fcuk in certain regards, but they have probably seen and done more in their years, than what you have yet to experience in life. You didnt lick what you know off a stone. Learn from them, and improve on what they have thought you.

iamwhoiam · 30-12-2018 06:04PM

Thankfully we have the wisdom in our old age that in fact we do not know everything . Our lot ring for direction or advice or DIY tips . We ring them for advice or help with our phones or online shopping or PC issues .
We respect their knowledge and they respect ours ,our age is not what gained us respect .

CelticRambler · 30-12-2018 06:17PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I dont actually disagree with you, the fallacy of appeal to age or tradition is a danger. Of course someone isnt automatically right because of their age; only a fool would defer to someone merely because they're older. But that doesnt mean they're wrong because they're old. They may be obsolete. There may be a better way of doing something.

(When I work,) I work with a lot of young people in my own profession, and I'd sooner have one of them provide me & mine with the relevant service than many of my own generation. The youngsters have a more modern education and the skills needed to use the modern tools at their disposition, and an up-to-date version of what's actually going on in a field where climate change and other external factors are having a real effect on what we see from week to week.

But neither is it a generational thing. I've spent the afternoon with my 23-year old son, splitting logs with an axe and a sledgehammer and wedge, logs that were a tree-trunk last week that we shifted using a crowbar and a carefully placed pivot before cutting them into sections using a chainsaw; and they'll go in a fire that'll be lit with one single match and no firelighter. He's now writing code for a bot that'll win some online game for him. :cool:

Meanwhile, my best friend from primary school (same age as me, fifties) still can't book flights on line on his own; but my parents (in their seventies) spend half the evening on their smartphones and laptops. :rolleyes:

People are different, that's all it is.

30-12-2018 07:21PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I dont actually disagree with you, the fallacy of appeal to age or tradition is a danger.

[snip]

Hence, my simple rule. Respect the elderly. They might be wrong as fcuk in certain regards, but they have probably seen and done more in their years, than what you have yet to experience in life. You didnt lick what you know off a stone. Learn from them, and improve on what they have thought you.

That’s all great, except for the fact that being old doesn’t mean you necessarily have anything worth teaching. I know that seems harsh, but it’s very true.

I pay great attention to people of all ages who can be seen to have proven expertise and the knowledge I want to access. I pay little if any to someone who wants to plumb the depths of their memory and wax lyrical about how they ‘remember’ doing it back in the 50’s or when they were 6, sixty or seventy years ago. If that’s all I can find, then I’ll take it and verify everything.

But if I find a 20 year old who’s doing what I want to do, doing it well and showing their experience is proven and stands up to scrutiny, the professed experience from decades ago from that ‘elder’ may well be nothing but inaccurate reminiscence or exaggeration of their abilities.

One of the great challenges is getting people of all ages to to accept that their experience, no matter how difficult it or life in general has been for them, is theirs. Others may choose to flatter their egos or to reject it as being of no value, given the specific situation or subject. And that’s okay. It’s not disrespectful to be truthful and to let someone know that their input or advice, guidance or tuition is not as valued as they believe it to be themselves.

Hurtful? Quite possibly. But that’s just how it goes. To benefit from a persons individual life experience is similar to soliciting their opinion. You should decide who to ask and you do so based on how you value that persons input into a given situation. But to think your life experience (related to your age) and similarly your opinions should be valued by others is foolish.

I’ll greet politely, hold the door, carry the bag, step in the mud to make space, stop to chat socially, lend a hand and on and on when it comes to being decent and respectful towards my elders.

But any one of them who would expect me to add weight to the validity of their advice, counsel or opinions on the simple grounds that they were older than me would get the same honest reponse. Credit where it’s due, but age and whatever your own life experiences may be doesn’t get you extra points here.

Wibbs · 30-12-2018 07:31PM

batgoat wrote: »

Interestingly the Sentinel tribe that came to prominence a few months back are entirely vegetarian so tribal communities weren't always meat eaters.

Actually that's supposition B. They don't know what their diet is. The other Andamese in those islands are all hunter gatherers.

Feisar · 30-12-2018 08:02PM

Wibbs wrote: »

If I could fellate myself I'd get nothing done.

I'd use a bow drill cos I'm lazy, but these work better.

Funny enough I'd know how to cure hides and can knap(bit outa practice with it though):D

Yeah though it's less about "safety" and much more down to how much more money makers/dealers can get from customers.

Meet your twin. I avoid Chinese made tat as much is as humanly possible.

Wow, that's pretty cool. Into the whole bushcrafter stuff myself although when I was young it was just playing in the woods.

Galwayguy35 · 30-12-2018 08:14PM

DS86DS wrote: »

If you are referring to North Sentinel Island in the Indian Ocean, I can see that they might have been reduced to vegetarianism....as it's a small island and after 50,000 years there are no edible species left. So perhaps the tribe there have been left with no option.

As for foxes and rabbits. If anything, particularly the latter are overpopulating the countryside.

They are also major pests on farms, with foxes killing chickens and other small livestock......and rabbits destroying crops like cabbage. Give rabbits enough time to regenerate with a hunting ban, and the countryside will be swamped with them.

The poor old fox seems to get blamed for a lot these days, they are actually an important part of the food chain and keep the rabbit and rat population in check.

IMO the pet dog sitting in a persons room is more of a danger to farm animals the fox will ever be, I've seen first hand the damage they can do.

Wibbs · 30-12-2018 08:27PM

Feisar wrote: »

Wow, that's pretty cool. Into the whole bushcrafter stuff myself although when I was young it was just playing in the woods.

Well knapping is hard enough here. I dunno how our ancestors did it TBH. The quality of stone available is crap for the most part. Precious little flint for a start. Tiny deposits around Lough Neagh in the north, though you get flint nodules washing up on southern beaches. Nothing like the quantity and quality of southern English flint. The French stuff is better again.

Raheem Euro · 30-12-2018 09:01PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well knapping is hard enough here. I dunno how our ancestors did it TBH. The quality of stone available is crap for the most part. Precious little flint for a start. Tiny deposits around Lough Neagh in the north, though you get flint nodules washing up on southern beaches. Nothing like the quantity and quality of southern English flint. The French stuff is better again.

I wonder did they keep a small fire going permanently. In the camp or homestead. Be heavy on fuel but beneficial.
Depending on their location at any time, hunter gatherers might need a fire going all night to keep predators away.

Roger Hassenforder · 30-12-2018 09:15PM

JayZeus wrote: »

That’s all great, except for the fact that being old doesn’t mean you necessarily have anything worth teaching. I know that seems harsh, but it’s very true.

I pay great attention to people of all ages who can be seen to have proven expertise and the knowledge I want to access. I pay little if any to someone who wants to plumb the depths of their memory and wax lyrical about how they ‘remember’ doing it back in the 50’s or when they were 6, sixty or seventy years ago. If that’s all I can find, then I’ll take it and verify everything.

But if I find a 20 year old who’s doing what I want to do, doing it well and showing their experience is proven and stands up to scrutiny, the professed experience from decades ago from that ‘elder’ may well be nothing but inaccurate reminiscence or exaggeration of their abilities.

One of the great challenges is getting people of all ages to to accept that their experience, no matter how difficult it or life in general has been for them, is theirs. Others may choose to flatter their egos or to reject it as being of no value, given the specific situation or subject. And that’s okay. It’s not disrespectful to be truthful and to let someone know that their input or advice, guidance or tuition is not as valued as they believe it to be themselves.

Hurtful? Quite possibly. But that’s just how it goes. To benefit from a persons individual life experience is similar to soliciting their opinion. You should decide who to ask and you do so based on how you value that persons input into a given situation. But to think your life experience (related to your age) and similarly your opinions should be valued by others is foolish.

I’ll greet politely, hold the door, carry the bag, step in the mud to make space, stop to chat socially, lend a hand and on and on when it comes to being decent and respectful towards my elders.

But any one of them who would expect me to add weight to the validity of their advice, counsel or opinions on the simple grounds that they were older than me would get the same honest reponse. Credit where it’s due, but age and whatever your own life experiences may be doesn’t get you extra points here.

Any old fool waxing lyrical about the halcyon days of old, when things were better, is just an old fool. Anyone who expects you to defer to them on age, rather than experience, is not worth listening to. But know the difference.

However. anyone with more of something/anything than you, may have capital you could benifet from.

DS86DS · 30-12-2018 10:39PM

Raheem Euro wrote: »

I wonder did they keep a small fire going permanently. In the camp or homestead. Be heavy on fuel but beneficial.
Depending on their location at any time, hunter gatherers might need a fire going all night to keep predators away.

That's exactly what they did do.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fire-good-make-human-inspiration-happen-132494650/

To this day, predators like wolves have a fear of fire. So a fire at the entrance to a cave would be an ideal way to keep predators away and sleep safely throughout the night.

Wibbs · 30-12-2018 11:09PM

Raheem Euro wrote: »

I wonder did they keep a small fire going permanently. In the camp or homestead. Be heavy on fuel but beneficial.
Depending on their location at any time, hunter gatherers might need a fire going all night to keep predators away.

Some around today do R. Hard to say because all still around are in tropical areas where heat is less an issue(even at night). I'd reckon our ancestors living in Europe with ice ages coming and going would have kept fires going a lot of the time. They tended to live in small numbers in ice free wooded areas so plenty of fuel. That said, I can't recall reading archaeological reports that mentioned thick layers of ash from fires?

I'd reckon predators were less an issue R. Maybe in the very early days in regions where they weren't used to these weird looking two legged things. Animals very quickly learned that the same two legged things were extremely effin dangerous to screw with. Or they died out. And many did. IMHO one of the most chilling and accurate lines in film history is in Bambi; Man has entered the forest. And it went badly for Bambi's ma(spoiler).

Again take Europe: People of various kinds were here for nearly a million years and they weren't vegans.

As one chap described them they were "wolves with knives". No shock we ended up first domesticating the wolf, rather than any other animal, we were a near perfect fit for each other. Even today studies have found people understand wolf vocalisations and postures better than they understand our nearest relative chimp's vocalisations and postures. And vice versa. Yep, wolves respond to basic human emotions.

Though maybe it was a dodgy choice...

Those that couldn't make fire - in historical times the Tasmanians and Andamese couldn't - kept fires going and preserved burning embers in various ways. There's a fungus whose name escapes(found here too IIRC) that will smoulder for days, but a quick blow on it among tinder and you have fire.

Fire as a tool seemed to come and go in the long history of humans. It seems to appear nearly a million years ago, but then comes and goes, at least for cooking. Neandertals at some points in place and time used it and used it extremely expertly. EG they invented a type of compound glue from tree resin that required serious bloody skill in keeping temperatures steady and the basic ingredients in an anoxic environment. They had to keep the air out, while keeping the fire going consistently. Modern researcher have tried to produce the stuff using what they had back then and do, but in tiny quantities, teaspoon levels, yet those ancient buggers were rattling the stuff out in big lumps. Yet at other times and oddly sometimes colder times they seemed to have forgotten how to make fire.

Fire is an odd invention and after tool use one of our most important ones ever. It meant we could release far more nutrients from both animal and plant resources. Cooking is a type of external digestion. It's where the more militant vegans and the like get it so wrong. No we don't have the strong stomach acids of a carnivores, or indeed the multiple stomachs of herbivores, we didn't need them, cooking sorted it out. We didn't need the slashing teeth of the carnivore, nor the grinding teeth of the herbivore because we had tools and cooking. "Raw" diets are popular among the weight loss brigade as the fat falls off you because your body can't utilise nearly as much of the calories and nutrients.

CelticRambler · 31-12-2018 12:22AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet at other times and oddly sometimes colder times they seemed to have forgotten how to make fire.

Could it be that those were colder and wetter times? The aforementioned eldest son spends time training in the wet glens of Ireland, trying to light fires on cold, damp days. The very first thing he noticed when he came home for this Christmas (first time back in France in the winter for a few years) was how incredibly easy it was to light dry wood, and how hot it burns. We were speculating that the ancients may not have been able to create fire as easily as we think, but probably knew how to keep it going if/when a helpful spark or lightning strike (or passing alien :pac: ) set their local woodland/savannah ablaze.

Wibbs · 31-12-2018 12:24AM

CelticRambler wrote: »

Could it be that those were colder and wetter times?

That's a bloody good point CR.

Filmer Paradise · 31-12-2018 12:27AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Anyone who doesn't know how to light a fire, change a tyre, keep the oil topped up in their car, bleed a heater, use jump leads, foot turf, change a bulb or use a needle needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

I agree with this & can do all of the above except footing turf.

The whole turf thing baffles me

. I guess I'm born in the wrong part of the country for this sort of activity.

However I intend to remedy this. I have a long held dream of going on a turf-cutting holiday!

I love physical hard work. My daily fee would be free board, a good feed of new potatoes & at least 5 pints of porter.

Also, at the end of the arrangement, I'd have to have to have a trailer load of the turf I'd helped out with.

Any takers feel free to PM me.:):)

Tell me how · 31-12-2018 12:40AM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

I love physical hard work. My daily fee would be free board, a good feed of new potatoes & at least 5 pints of porter.

Also, at the end of the arrangement, I'd have to have to have a trailer load of the turf I'd helped out with.

So, in order to have an experience you've never had before you'd expect;
Accommodation, meals, 5 pints/day and a free trailer of turf?

You might get someone to take you up on the offer if you offered to pay them €50/day and you could maybe buy a trailer of turf from them at the end.

You'd foot a trailer of turf in under half a day.

Filmer Paradise · 31-12-2018 01:01AM

Tell me how wrote: »

So, in order to have an experience you've never had before you'd expect;
Accommodation, meals, 5 pints/day and a free trailer of turf?

You might get someone to take you up on the offer if you offered to pay them €50/day and you could maybe buy a trailer of turf from them at the end.

You'd foot a trailer of turf in under half a day.

Dreams & reality sometimes don't mix.

Also I'd assume that most turf is not cut with a slean anymore.

Still, something like that would appeal to me.

Much better than lying on a beach somewhere IMHO.

Feisar · 31-12-2018 01:02AM

Tell me how wrote: »

So, in order to have an experience you've never had before you'd expect;
Accommodation, meals, 5 pints/day and a free trailer of turf?

You might get someone to take you up on the offer if you offered to pay them €50/day and you could maybe buy a trailer of turf from them at the end.

You'd foot a trailer of turf in under half a day.

Footing turf is hard work but the skill is quickly learned!

Take two sods, turn them over
Lay them side by side about a sods width apart
Lay two on top of them in the opposite direction
Ditto
Ditto

Repeat up and down the bank.

Only real tip is to "make a bit of room for yourself", basically this is making a few footings bigger than normal and close together so yer not walking on turf all the time or so you won't have a footin' under yer arse all day.

There are other methods but the above is the standard.

Feisar · 31-12-2018 01:10AM

Raheem Euro wrote: »

I wonder did they keep a small fire going permanently. In the camp or homestead. Be heavy on fuel but beneficial.
Depending on their location at any time, hunter gatherers might need a fire going all night to keep predators away.

I remember my grandparents "banking" the fire. Before going to bed take the ashes from below the grate and dump them on the coals. In the morning you'd just rustle the ashes and have a load of glowing coals. Throw some kindling on it and away you go again.

Same often happens me by accident as in a load of ashes burying coals and keeping them from burning out overnight.

Filmer Paradise · 31-12-2018 01:15AM

Feisar wrote: »

Footing turf is hard work but the skill is quickly learned!

Take two sods, turn them over
Lay them side by side about a sods width apart
Lay two on top of them in the opposite direction
Ditto
Ditto

Repeat up and down the bank.

Only real tip is to "make a bit of room for yourself", basically this is making a few footings bigger than normal and close together so yer not walking on turf all the time or so you won't have a footin' under yer arse all day.

There are other methods but the above is the standard.

Sounds like Heaven to me(along with the food & drink of course!). I'm old enough to remember the era of 'saving the Hay' before it became completely mechanized.

Loved being a part of it then.

I don't understand the aimless activity of the Gym. I like to have a productive & profitable style of workout.:cool:

Feisar · 31-12-2018 01:20AM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Sounds like Heaven to me(along with the food & drink of course!). I'm old enough to remember the era of 'saving the Hay' before it became completely mechanized.

Loved being a part of it then.

I don't understand the aimless activity of the Gym. I like to have a productive & profitable style of workout.:cool:

I "saved hay" way back as well, forking onto a winter cock. Agreed, a grand days work but the turf is agony literally. Yer bent over all day. You'd want to be masochistic to get anything from it.

Filmer Paradise · 31-12-2018 01:28AM

Feisar wrote: »

I "saved hay" way back as well, forking onto a winter cock. Agreed, a grand days work but the turf is agony literally. Yer bent over all day. You'd want to be masochistic to get anything from it.

Love that style of thing myself. I'm 50 now & the aches get to me a bit these days.

Nothing like working hard out in the fresh air though. I love it & love the hunger I have for good wholesome grub afterwards.

The reward of a few pints afterwards seals the deal for me.

Anyway I've derailed the thread enough, so I'll bow out for now.:)

CelticRambler · 31-12-2018 10:15AM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

However I intend to remedy this. I have a long held dream of going on a turf-cutting holiday!

I love physical hard work. My daily fee would be free board, a good feed of new potatoes & at least 5 pints of porter.

Also, at the end of the arrangement, I'd have to have to have a trailer load of the turf I'd helped out with.

My roof needs to be stripped and relaid - are you interested? I'll stand you the food and drink, give you a bed for as long as needed, and you can take away as many trailers of old tiles as you like!

Is anybody mourning the loss of Manly /Womanly arts?

Comments