Cork developments

Roger Hassenforder · 16-12-2018 01:22PM

ofcork wrote: »

I see there are complaints about the mound of rubble left on sullivans quay now.

Another two fingers from BAM?

snotboogie · 16-12-2018 04:01PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Another two fingers from BAM?

Maybe it’s their small way of putting the pressure on before the events centre funding decision. More than likely though it’s just them being as lazy/cost effective as possible while they wait for a decision. Hopefully the hotel will start early in the new year if there is positive news early next week rather than them also waiting out what will likely be a lengthy planning process for the Events Centre.

EdgeCase · 16-12-2018 04:21PM

ofcork wrote: »

I see there are complaints about the mound of rubble left on sullivans quay now.

It's been sitting there a long time now. What's the hold up?

If there's nothing going to happen it for years, it should be reverted to parkland.

16-12-2018 05:06PM

Honestly BAM should be told where to head, if they ever tender fir something again

Roger Hassenforder · 16-12-2018 05:52PM

snotboogie wrote: »

Maybe it’s their small way of putting the pressure on before the events centre funding decision. More than likely though it’s just them being as lazy/cost effective as possible while they wait for a decision. Hopefully the hotel will start early in the new year if there is positive news early next week rather than them also waiting out what will likely be a lengthy planning process for the Events Centre.

I reckon the delay in the funding suits BAM just fine. Some nice projects lined up, city centre yard...no rush

calnand · 16-12-2018 06:56PM

They're storing the rubble for use as an aggregate for the new construction.

hans aus dtschl · 17-12-2018 11:06AM

namloc1980 wrote: »

I know it's only a concept image but this really shows the challenge of trying to please everyone by building a rapid transit corridor and maintaining the greenway. Reducing it to a single line to squeeze both under the bridge immediately reduces capacity on the transit line.

It's a tough compromise. I'm in favour of both the greenway and the light rail corridor.
Solutions exist that allow both to coexist on the same stretch, such as the rubberised "bungs" that can fill the tramline. But other than for short stretches the two have got to be separated as much as possible. The current greenway tarred strip is approx 3m wide and the total legacy path width is about 8m at maximum under the Blackrock road. Probably 6m max between the old platforms. For me that's the only point that both should coexist and both should be fully separated outside of that.
Skehard road and Boreen Bridge would need major infrastructure works regardless. Thus, I suggest the tram could be raised to normal (road) level north of the Boreen Bridge. It could then stay at the raised level rather than in the cutting from there out to Mahon point. Any takers?

The terminus of this tram in the medium term is likely imagined as Mahon. Should there be a longer-term idea of either Douglas or Passage being linked in to this? If the gradient stayed rising, it would give the option of an elevated crossing of the N40.

GavRedKing · 17-12-2018 01:44PM

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It's a tough compromise. I'm in favour of both the greenway and the light rail corridor.
Solutions exist that allow both to coexist on the same stretch, such as the rubberised "bungs" that can fill the tramline. But other than for short stretches the two have got to be separated as much as possible. The current greenway tarred strip is approx 3m wide and the total legacy path width is about 8m at maximum under the Blackrock road. Probably 6m max between the old platforms. For me that's the only point that both should coexist and both should be fully separated outside of that.
Skehard road and Boreen Bridge would need major infrastructure works regardless. Thus, I suggest the tram could be raised to normal (road) level north of the Boreen Bridge. It could then stay at the raised level rather than in the cutting from there out to Mahon point. Any takers?

The terminus of this tram in the medium term is likely imagined as Mahon. Should there be a longer-term idea of either Douglas or Passage being linked in to this? If the gradient stayed rising, it would give the option of an elevated crossing of the N40.

If it was to continue on through douglas/passge it would have to cross the south ring road, of course the old railway line has a pedestrian bridge over the road but theres no cheap way of linking it from Mahon over to douglas/passage/rochestown.

hans aus dtschl · 17-12-2018 02:06PM

GavRedKing wrote: »

If it was to continue on through douglas/passge it would have to cross the south ring road, of course the old railway line has a pedestrian bridge over the road but theres no cheap way of linking it from Mahon over to douglas/passage/rochestown.

If it was at least at-gradient at Skehard road it could continue to rise and go over the N40:
1 - without demolishing the existing pedestrian bridge
2- without requiring significant works on the N40
You COULD cut-and-cover at the N40 (or better, cut and cover the N40 itself) but the costs would be high and since it's next to water it's not ideal. Better to raise the tram IMO.

Wasteland at Bessborough could be built on as high-density living or working units and the crossing of the N40 and Douglas river remain as the expensive outstanding engineering solutions. A causeway to Rochestown and Douglas is doable but maybe not cost effective. Passage direction is cheaper, but there's no population density.

EdgeCase · 17-12-2018 02:10PM

It would be a short tunnel under the N40. I can't really see how else you could do it. There absolutely no way you could significantly disrupt the N40 without causing absolute misery for commuters.

hans aus dtschl · 17-12-2018 02:18PM

EdgeCase wrote: »

It would be a short tunnel under the N40. I can't really see how else you could do it. There absolutely no way you could significantly disrupt the N40 without causing absolute misery for commuters.

Not over the N40? I think the Dublin trams do about 2% (max 6% in short stretches).
Max vehicle height is 4.65m...and there's approx 300m from Goolds veterinary clinic to the N40, so there would be plenty room to raise the tram, if it was at least already at road level there?

I'd see all this being second phase at a minimum though surely.

Curb Your Enthusiasm · 17-12-2018 03:48PM

So, are we thinking a light rail system is seriously on the cards for Cork's future? When do we reckon it'd all be actually completed? Exciting nonetheless!

chalkitdown1 · 17-12-2018 04:30PM

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

So, are we thinking a light rail system is seriously on the cards for Cork's future? When do we reckon it'd all be actually completed? Exciting nonetheless!

I think they're starting the works in tandem with the events centre, so it'll be any day now.

hans aus dtschl · 17-12-2018 04:38PM

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

So, are we thinking a light rail system is seriously on the cards for Cork's future? When do we reckon it'd all be actually completed? Exciting nonetheless!

The leaks from the Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Plan show light rail between Kent and Mahon.

GavRedKing · 18-12-2018 09:17AM

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

So, are we thinking a light rail system is seriously on the cards for Cork's future? When do we reckon it'd all be actually completed? Exciting nonetheless!

A decade, and thats probably being optimistic.

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 01:54PM

EdgeCase wrote: »

It would be a short tunnel under the N40. I can't really see how else you could do it. There absolutely no way you could significantly disrupt the N40 without causing absolute misery for commuters.

Wouldn't be that much of a problem. There has been way more disruptive projects undertaken in Dublin recently.

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 01:58PM

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

So, are we thinking a light rail system is seriously on the cards for Cork's future? When do we reckon it'd all be actually completed? Exciting nonetheless!

The strategy will run from 2019 to 2040. Light rail to be a central element of the strategy so work would likely start in the mid 2020s with about 3-4 years construction. The strategy also includes a dramatic improvement to commuter rail services with new stations and trains operating at higher frequency. There's also plans for a serious improvement to bus priority and new cycling corridors.

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 01:59PM

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

The leaks from the Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Plan show light rail between Kent and Mahon.

Mahon and Balincollig.

hans aus dtschl · 18-12-2018 02:29PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Mahon and Balincollig.

It's not entirely clear yet that that's the case, is it? The images showed a west-facing tram at Washington Street but it's still unclear how that would make it to Kent Station.

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 03:20PM

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It's not entirely clear yet that that's the case, is it? The images showed a west-facing tram at Washington Street but it's still unclear how that would make it to Kent Station.

I can exclusively reveal it'll be one line, not two separate ones. Ballincollig to Mahon.

There is scope for a potential future north-south line, airport to Blackpool or some variation of that, but it'd be out of the scope of the 2040 plan.

leahyl · 18-12-2018 03:39PM

Any plans for the northside of Cork City with better public transport or is it just bus lanes :rolleyes: Imagine a light rail system coming down Summer Hill :pac:

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 03:45PM

leahyl wrote: »

Any plans for the northside of Cork City with better public transport or is it just bus lanes :rolleyes: Imagine a light rail system coming down Summer Hill :pac:

New frequent rail service for Blackpool connecting to the luas at Kent. Single fare for all modes, no interchange penalty. New bus corridors will be of high quality, car bans and parking removed on many streets. Most notably a major remodeling of McCurtain st.

snotboogie · 18-12-2018 04:00PM

cgcsb wrote: »

The strategy will run from 2019 to 2040. Light rail to be a central element of the strategy so work would likely start in the mid 2020s with about 3-4 years construction. The strategy also includes a dramatic improvement to commuter rail services with new stations and trains operating at higher frequency. There's also plans for a serious improvement to bus priority and new cycling corridors.

Douglas Rd to be closed completely to cars for buses lanes as per the pictures?

EdgeCase · 18-12-2018 04:07PM

cgcsb wrote: »

New frequent rail service for Blackpool connecting to the luas at Kent. Single fare for all modes, no interchange penalty. New bus corridors will be of high quality, car bans and parking removed on many streets. Most notably a major remodeling of McCurtain st.

It would be worth electrifying Cobh/Midleton - Mallow for carbon neutral service. Something that might even be fundable from various climate change initiative budgets.
We should never have been building diesel commuter rail.

Also any system needs proper multimodal ticketing on Leap Card. We don't need some mess of train, bus and tram tickets all being different for a single journey. It has to be a system. The errors made in Dublin in the past shouldn't be repeated.

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 04:13PM

snotboogie wrote: »

Douglas Rd to be closed completely to cars for buses lanes as per the pictures?

At points it'll be closed to cars, so local access is maintained but you won't be able to drive for long stretches in a car, making it useless as a commuter route for cars. A similar design solution is to be used on Dublin's Old Cabra Road as part of busconnects to maintain local access and keep buses moving. See page 57, map 28:

https://busconnects.ie/media/1351/busconnects-cbc5-blanchardstown-to-city-centre-final-for-web-med-res.pdf

snotboogie · 18-12-2018 04:18PM

cgcsb wrote: »

At points it'll be closed to cars, so local access is maintained but you won't be able to drive for long stretches in a car, making it useless as a commuter route for cars. A similar design solution is to be used on Dublin's Old Cabra Road as part of busconnects to maintain local access and keep buses moving. See page 57, map 28:

https://busconnects.ie/media/1351/busconnects-cbc5-blanchardstown-to-city-centre-final-for-web-med-res.pdf

If they are going to all that hassle why not just make it a proper BRT?

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 04:26PM

EdgeCase wrote: »

It would be worth electrifying Cobh/Midleton - Mallow for carbon neutral service. Something that might even be fundable from various climate change initiative budgets.
We should never have been building diesel commuter rail.

Also any system needs proper multimodal ticketing on Leap Card. We don't need some mess of train, bus and tram tickets all being different for a single journey. It has to be a system. The errors made in Dublin in the past shouldn't be repeated.

Electrification is likely to happen, but as part of a Dundalk-Cork upgrade to high speed (medium speed depending on who's talking). It won't be part of the scope of CMATS although it may well be delivered within that time frame. Regarding electrification, there is a massive row at the minute because the existing DART in Dublin uses DC power, with a substation every 3-4km. The intercity lines will have to be AC because this allows substations every 20-30kms. This means the DART will have to be retrofitted with some disruption over 8-12 months, or leave as is and have massive inter-operability issues.

In the interim, Cork Commuter rail will have the Roles Royce hybrid locos, they operate on battery power starting and stopping and use regenerative breaking.

As it happens, electric trains aren't 100% carbon neutral. Their running is as carbon efficient as the electricity generated to power them is. So until Moneypoint is replaced by a nuclear fission reactor or replaced with an undersea connection to the French nuclear powered grid, the electric trains will be about 50% powered by our domestic renewables and the remainder through our gas and coal fired generation. Still infinitely greener than a single diesel loco though, given the efficiency of modern gas power plants.

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 04:31PM

snotboogie wrote: »

If they are going to all that hassle why not just make it a proper BRT?

BRT is quite variable in it's definition. In South America and China it's a little train on wheels with full segregation. In Belfast it's an infrequent bendi-bus. If it's bendi-buses that you'd be after, they might be slightly impractical for Cork, which lacks the more modern road layout Belfast has. However offboard ticketing is being considered on some routes, particularly to Douglas. Also 2 door operation will be coming. One door getting on, one door getting off.

EdgeCase · 18-12-2018 04:36PM

They're actually substantially more CO2 efficient than diesel, even with Moneypoint (which is incidentally off line at the moment).

This month averages:

Coal 3.4%, Gas 43.56%, Renewables 43.84%, Others (waste to power, CHP and peat etc) 9.16% and Net Import 0.03%

There's almost zero chance of nuclear ever being used here, due to scale and long term political opposition to it.

DART being retrofitted isn't that big a deal really. You're looking probably multi mode trains on Northern commuter routes and the enterprise. They're not unusual elsewhere. It just means you've 25kV AC / 1.5kV DC trains on the system for those routes.

There are plenty of countries with far more voltages to deal with. The worst setups are in the UK where Eurostar has to handle multiple voltages and also 3rd rail power.

But in general any new commuter rail should be electric. It doesn't make any sense to be using diesel for high density commuter stuff at all. You're not eliminating issues locally. Traction power / flexibility is far worse. They're noisy and they are far more maintenance heavy. Electric trains are mechanically very simple devices.

You also have things like regenerative breaking which is a big deal in terms of efficiency as systems become bigger and busier.

snotboogie · 18-12-2018 04:40PM

cgcsb wrote: »

BRT is quite variable in it's definition. In South America and China it's a little train on wheels with full segregation. In Belfast it's an infrequent bendi-bus. If it's bendi-buses that you'd be after, they might be slightly impractical for Cork, which lacks the more modern road layout Belfast has. However offboard ticketing is being considered on some routes, particularly to Douglas. Also 2 door operation will be coming. One door getting on, one door getting off.

I'd be less concerned about the buses and more concerned about the general principals; most importantly the off board ticketing as you mentioned and dedicated lanes. It looks like this will not have dedicated lanes.

Cork developments

Comments