Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

Bass Reeves · 10-12-2018 3:46pm

alps wrote: »

From a dairy perspective here Bass, your figures are very much in line with our heifer rearing costs except when we add in fixed costs like finance, electricity, depreciation, insurance, phone, car, advisory, accountancy, and all the other similar costs, they added another 600 to the total.

If you consider you would incur that other cost anyway, then you may say it's a worthwhile exercise, but at the end of the day, particularly on a beef farm all of these items weigh heavily on the bottom line at the end of he day.

Fixed costs are a funny excerise to calculate. It depends on whether you are full time farming or parttime I take your fixed cost items one by one. I run asmall operation killing about 60 head/year. Your choice with beef farming is either carry it on as efficient (profitability/loss wise) as possible or rent to a dairy farmers. If I rented I get about 7-10k/year for my 60 odd acres but over time lose capital value as most rented land looses it value over time. My perception I may be wrong. But anyway.

Finance as with a lot of small beef operation there is no borrowing's so finance is not an issue.

Electricity my farm is away from the house true electricity cost is slightly sub 500/year. However when it is added to home bil and 2/3 farm use and 1/3 domestic use applies electricity is costing nothing if not from tax point of view I am gaining.

Depreciation. Over the last 15 years since I bought the place I have build a shed and have machinery etc in place. My depreciation costs would be quite low even though the capital costs are high. We had this discussion in our discussion group and one farmer idea on shed costs was with a life span in Beef of 40+ years how do you allow for its fixed cost. I build a shed and silage slab costing about 125K after vat reclaim and grant it was costing about 44K after tax this is down to 25K. Over 40 years it cost is 6-800/year. It can hold a 100 cattle so is the real cost 6-10/head/year.

Car is similar to electricity I have a Work vehicle and call to the farm direct from work. But I run a small van as well and herself has an Avensis. Both these and the total diesel bill goes into the account in real terms cost is sub zero. Phone is the same. As well being self employed you can pay wages to children for the work they carry out on farm. Advisory costs comes out of Glas and discussion group costs. Accountant is 850 give the bill split 3 way over EU payments, farm business profits and tax avoidance the share to the farm is 280/year and even at that it is a questionable cost. In real terms for a part time farmers fixed costs may be minimal as in my case. If you work on a decent margin/animal. What are my fixed cost/animal I am not really sure but I imagine that in real terms it is about 50/head

The biggest trick is to run the opeartion at a decent margin over direct costs. Most farmers cannot work out there real costs. They plough money into machinery I try to keep machinery costs to a minimun and be willing to look at what you need as opposed to what you want and if you having someting like a jeep figure is it a true farm cost or a lifestyle cost.

But then maybe i think too much at times

dh1985 · 10-12-2018 4:40pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Fixed costs are a funny excerise to calculate. It depends on whether you are full time farming or parttime I take your fixed cost items one by one. I run asmall operation killing about 60 head/year. Your choice with beef farming is either carry it on as efficient (profitability/loss wise) as possible or rent to a dairy farmers. If I rented I get about 7-10k/year for my 60 odd acres but over time lose capital value as most rented land looses it value over time. My perception I may be wrong. But anyway.

Finance as with a lot of small beef operation there is no borrowing's so finance is not an issue.

Electricity my farm is away from the house true electricity cost is slightly sub 500/year. However when it is added to home bil and 2/3 farm use and 1/3 domestic use applies electricity is costing nothing if not from tax point of view I am gaining.

Depreciation. Over the last 15 years since I bought the place I have build a shed and have machinery etc in place. My depreciation costs would be quite low even though the capital costs are high. We had this discussion in our discussion group and one farmer idea on shed costs was with a life span in Beef of 40+ years how do you allow for its fixed cost. I build a shed and silage slab costing about 125K after vat reclaim and grant it was costing about 44K after tax this is down to 25K. Over 40 years it cost is 6-800/year. It can hold a 100 cattle so is the real cost 6-10/head/year.

Car is similar to electricity I have a Work vehicle and call to the farm direct from work. But I run a small van as well and herself has an Avensis. Both these and the total diesel bill goes into the account in real terms cost is sub zero. Phone is the same. As well being self employed you can pay wages to children for the work they carry out on farm. Advisory costs comes out of Glas and discussion group costs. Accountant is 850 give the bill split 3 way over EU payments, farm business profits and tax avoidance the share to the farm is 280/year and even at that it is a questionable cost. In real terms for a part time farmers fixed costs may be minimal as in my case. If you work on a decent margin/animal. What are my fixed cost/animal I am not really sure but I imagine that in real terms it is about 50/head

The biggest trick is to run the opeartion at a decent margin over direct costs. Most farmers cannot work out there real costs. They plough money into machinery I try to keep machinery costs to a minimun and be willing to look at what you need as opposed to what you want and if you having someting like a jeep figure is it a true farm cost or a lifestyle cost.

But then maybe i think too much at times

Your moving the goalposts bass. The same reasoning could be applied to a part time suckler farmer where everything is written off against tax and we would all be making a fortune. As alps has stated above dairy men calve two year old heifers and they reckon to bring to calving costs give or take 1400e so anyone making 350e on a 1000e carcass of similar genetics needs to revisit the figures.
Its not only some suckler farmers that dont know their true costs.

jaymla627 · 10-12-2018 7:08pm

Keepgrowing wrote: »

It would be wrong to have a calf slaughter scheme. We have a social licence to farm and that’s one sure way of alienating the consumer

Will you rear your bulls calves so in the event their is no market for them, it’s a bit niave to think their is always going to be a outlet for them with the current state of beef farming and a ever increasing national dairy herd

whelan2 · 10-12-2018 8:02pm

Was there a scheme year's ago to export dairy bull calves?

epfff · 10-12-2018 8:44pm

whelan2 wrote: »

Was there a scheme year's ago to export dairy bull calves?

I have a recollection of calves being slaughtered in local sheep plant few days a week after aheep back in mid to late 90s.
If my memory serves me right their was government funding and few £ for pelt.

whelan2 · 10-12-2018 8:48pm

epfff wrote: »

I have a recollection of calves being slaughtered in local sheep plant few days a week after aheep back in mid to late 90s.
If my memory serves me right their was government funding and few £ for pelt.

I remember putting silver tags in calves, was that anything to do with it? I would have been young enough.

patsy_mccabe · 10-12-2018 9:09pm

whelan2 wrote: »

I remember putting silver tags in calves, was that anything to do with it? I would have been young enough.

These calf tags?

148multi · 10-12-2018 9:12pm

epfff wrote: »

I have a recollection of calves being slaughtered in local sheep plant few days a week after aheep back in mid to late 90s.
If my memory serves me right their was government funding and few £ for pelt.

I brought a few to abp nenagh, think it was 100 a head, mid nineties.

whelan2 · 10-12-2018 9:40pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

These calf tags?

Yup

Hard Knocks · 10-12-2018 11:46pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

These calf tags?

Weren’t they the tags that had to be put in the calf’s ear when selling in the mart
A vet would tag with a brass tag at the herd test

patsy_mccabe · 10-12-2018 11:52pm

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Weren’t they the tags that had to be put in the calf’s ear when selling in the mart
A vet would tag with a brass tag at the herd test

You could be right. I found them here tidying up. Not sure how they were used. Older cattle deffo had brass tags.

wrangler · 10-12-2018 11:55pm

148multi wrote: »

I brought a few to abp nenagh, think it was 100 a head, mid nineties.

As far as I know calves are being slaughtered somewhere for a real market even now

Bass Reeves · 11-12-2018 12:54am

dh1985 wrote: »

Your moving the goalposts bass. The same reasoning could be applied to a part time suckler farmer where everything is written off against tax and we would all be making a fortune. As alps has stated above dairy men calve two year old heifers and they reckon to bring to calving costs give or take 1400e so anyone making 350e on a 1000e carcass of similar genetics needs to revisit the figures.
Its not only some suckler farmers that dont know their true costs.

No really. I a just explain the reality of being a self employed sole trader. No beef farmer can afford 600 euro fixed costs/head. Most dairy business have high fixed costs at present due to expansion. However there is a vast difference between gross margin on a suckler and beef farm. Stocking rate and turn over are the big differences. By the way the figures I gave are similar to figures I saw on a dairy heifer calf to beef from Teagasc.

I am not sure of the costs of a suckler cow with lads quoting costs of anything from 300-800/cow. What is the average selling price of weanling's for a lad with 30-40 suckler cows is it 800/head. I see a lot of suckler weanling's down around the 600 mark and below. Its the turn over that makes it for the heifer system or for any beef finishing system of dairy bred cattle that is managing to get a decent growth rate and can keep there costs down.

On the calf slaughter scheme there was one during the BSE outbreak in the late 90's. As wrangler there is calves mostly JEX's in a couple abatoirs at present I have heard figures of over 10K/year. But the government will bot fund such a scheme. As well an export subsidity would be illegal under EU rules.

Base price · 11-12-2018 9:32am

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Weren’t they the tags that had to be put in the calf’s ear when selling in the mart
A vet would tag with a brass tag at the herd test

Yes and you filled out a card with the tag number and details which went with the calf when you sold it otherwise you sent it into DAFM and they sent you back the green card/passport.

Base price · 11-12-2018 9:36am

148multi wrote: »

I brought a few to abp nenagh, think it was 100 a head, mid nineties.

The one that I remember was in the late 90's and was £70 for a FR bull and £87 for an AA or HE.

Anto_Meath · 11-12-2018 12:13pm

I worked in a lamb factor in the summer of 98 and they used to kill bull calves there on Friday afternoon, it was £80 for a Fr and £100 for any thing else. What used to happen was there would be maybe 15 - 20 calves in to be killed and the lads working in the factory would buy the FR's off the farmers / dealer for the £80. The non dairy bred calves would be all lads that weren't going to make it anyway so they would be the only ones that would end up killed so maybe 5 or 6 calves in total would be killed. I bought 3 FR's one day and fed them for 2 years, 1 of them was the tallest bullock I ever seen but when I killed him in the back end of 2000 he came into over £1,300, (€1,650), as a young lad in my first year in collage I was delighted with it. Giving €100 (£80) for similar type calves now and doing well to get €1,200 (£1,080) when I killing them, as they are now grading P's where they used to grade O's and cost have gone up.

patsy_mccabe · 11-12-2018 3:05pm

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/new-figures-show-uks-huge-dependence-on-ireland-for-beef-37614229.html

charolais0153 · 12-12-2018 1:16am

https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=12310
75% of aninals that graded u were shorthorn.interesting . what colour would they be does anyone know. Shorthorn x holstein?

Never wrestle with pigs · 12-12-2018 1:55am

charolais0153 wrote: »

https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=12310
75% of aninals that graded u were shorthorn.interesting . what colour would they be does anyone know. Shorthorn x holstein?

Lol, 26 aa, 12 he, 7 lim and 4/5 she. The two sh bulls used don't rate much at all for muscle by their own system. So the super stars are wrong or they were definitely out of Holstein cows lol.

bogman_bass · 12-12-2018 1:39pm

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Lol, 26 aa, 12 he, 7 lim and 4/5 she. The two sh bulls used don't rate much at all for muscle by their own system. So the super stars are wrong or they were definitely out of Holstein cows lol.

The fact that they came out of shorthorn and MRI cows would have been a help

Keepgrowing · 12-12-2018 1:52pm

jaymla627 wrote: »

Will you rear your bulls calves so in the event their is no market for them, it’s a bit niave to think their is always going to be a outlet for them with the current state of beef farming and a ever increasing national dairy herd

If we cannot sell them, what choice do we have? I’ve never slaughtered a calf and won’t start now. What are you going to do with yours?

jaymla627 · 12-12-2018 5:10pm

Keepgrowing wrote: »

If we cannot sell them, what choice do we have? I’ve never slaughtered a calf and won’t start now. What are you going to do with yours?

Have more customers then calves at the minute so it isn’t a issue, going in heavy with sexed semen in 2019 with the aim being only 50% of the herd is bred to dairy ai also using a fleck bull the last two seasons to clean-up and the calves sell themselves, have 25 x-bred flecks to bred in 19 also so depending how they turn out can see us going down to this route to add some value to calves....
As regards if it comes to pass that calves can’t be given away and no market for them would have zero issues with going the bobby calf route, haven’t the inclination/labour available/ our land to carry 80-90 bull calves

oldsmokey · 13-12-2018 1:19am

Great meeting in kanturk tonight, big turnout, eamon corley deserves respect. Its a thankless job hes doing with slim enough chance of success, but he has a plan, snd is putting his heart in it...if he gets the numbers, the plan may even work..so come on lads, sign up, or sign up yer pals...beefplan.ie...make goodman hurt!

alps · 13-12-2018 1:58am

They'll have to stop procrastinating and get to work before everything's gets sorted out

Check this out on Agriland - Creed to name factories fined for excessive trimming https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/creed-announces-enhanced-controls-on-trimming-for-2019/

TITANIUM. · 13-12-2018 12:13pm

alps wrote: »

They'll have to stop procrastinating and get to work before everything's gets sorted out

Check this out on Agriland - Creed to name factories fined for excessive trimming https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/creed-announces-enhanced-controls-on-trimming-for-2019/

So it's already working.
Are you part of the movement? If you were I suppose you would know that all current members were instructed last week to send FOI requests to both the department and through their local TD's. I sent off a dose of emails Saturday night. 1 replied.

Reggie. · 13-12-2018 12:20pm

TITANIUM. wrote: »

So it's already working.
Are you part of the movement? If you were I suppose you would know that all current members were instructed last week to send FOI requests to both the department and through their local TD's. I sent off a dose of emails Saturday night. 1 replied.

Same as that

White Clover · 13-12-2018 1:39pm

oldsmokey wrote: »

Great meeting in kanturk tonight, big turnout, eamon corley deserves respect. Its a thankless job hes doing with slim enough chance of success, but he has a plan, snd is putting his heart in it...if he gets the numbers, the plan may even work..so come on lads, sign up, or sign up yer pals...beefplan.ie...make goodman hurt!

I was in kanturk too last night and was impressed.
It was said that Irish beef is sold in only 3 out of 8 retail chains in the UK and that Irish beef is highly sought after on the continent but they can't get their hands on it.
I have emailed bord bia to explain to me why this is the case and asking what they are doing to change this. I also asked them why we dont have a beef brand like the "kerrygold" brand is for Irish butter.
I would ask that more people do the same.

At present, bord bia are coming across as lazy and incompetent. They're getting 6 million of OUR money and another 46 million of state money to promote our food abroad. They are not delivering for us. How long more should we continue to fund them when they are not doing their job properly?

yosemitesam1 · 13-12-2018 1:51pm

oldsmokey wrote: »

Great meeting in kanturk tonight, big turnout, eamon corley deserves respect. Its a thankless job hes doing with slim enough chance of success, but he has a plan, snd is putting his heart in it...if he gets the numbers, the plan may even work..so come on lads, sign up, or sign up yer pals...beefplan.ie...make goodman hurt!

What is the plan?

Didn't read through all the posts..

wrangler · 13-12-2018 2:44pm

TITANIUM. wrote: »

So it's already working.
Are you part of the movement? If you were I suppose you would know that all current members were instructed last week to send FOI requests to both the department and through their local TD's. I sent off a dose of emails Saturday night. 1 replied.

That's like the dealers story on the journal today about one of the speakers claiming to have met the department and neglecting to mention the fact that he was with IFA livestock commitee at the time.
I'd guarantee you that the meeting with the Dept late last night as reported on Agriland had more to do with what Creed does than public servants having to delete numerous Emails every morning.
It took a long time for ICSA to get credibility from the powers that be, this crowd'll be the same.
If I was to carry on like that, claiming credit for IFA for everything, I wouldn't be long getting the wrath of posters against the establishment here.

wrangler · 13-12-2018 2:47pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

What is the plan?

Didn't read through all the posts..

https://www.beefplan.ie/read-the-plan.

Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

Comments