Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2018

12-12-2018 10:58PM

Negative_G wrote: »

So instead of the melodramatics why dont you spell out what you believe he brings to the team.

Is it asking to much to expect a midfielder to turn carry the ball forward? I dont expect him to be iniesta or Xavi, a bit of progression would be great. Obviously he does the job that klopp wants him to do and that's great but he is rubbish to watch.

Henderson for me lacks any real quality and doesn't excel in any one area as far as I'm concerned. Maybe the old argument that he "covers a lot of ground" endears him to people.

The first thing that comes to my mind when I see his name on the teamsheet is slow, drawn out play and knowing he will spend more time playing 5 yard passes sitting between the two CBs than trying to move the ball forward.

That's the most important point. Klopp knows more than the average punter I'm guessing. You think Klopp cares if people think it's rubbish to watch Henderson? He does a job for him, and he obviously rates him doing that job. Otherwise he wouldn't pick him.

Negative_G · 12-12-2018 10:59PM

Fromvert wrote: »

The Henderson only passes backwards/sideways is a myth with the most simple stats (you'd have to dive deeper into them to really compare) but on the simple did his pass go backwards, forwards or sideways he's slightly behind to Gini and Milner and ahead of the likes of Fernandinho, Jorginho etc.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/truth-liverpools-jordan-henderson-forward-15466768

Henderson is this team's Dirk Kuyt or Lucas Leiva absolutely slated by half the fan base and appreciated by the other half, both ended up being more liked at the end of their time at Liverpool and Henderson will be the same in my opinion.

Stats are great, you can find just about any stat you want to support a narrative.

Henderson generally does most things well, he does nothing exceptionally well.

I'm hopeful that Fabinho can make the "6" role his own sooner rather than later and that Henderson can be put out to pasture somewhere far away from Liverpool.

Iused2likebusts · 12-12-2018 11:06PM

Negative_G wrote: »

So instead of the melodramatics why dont you spell out what you believe he brings to the team.

Is it asking to much to expect a midfielder to turn carry the ball forward? I dont expect him to be iniesta or Xavi, a bit of progression would be great. Obviously he does the job that klopp wants him to do and that's great but he is rubbish to watch.

Henderson for me lacks any real quality and doesn't excel in any one area as far as I'm concerned. Maybe the old argument that he "covers a lot of ground" endears him to people.

The first thing that comes to my mind when I see his name on the teamsheet is slow, drawn out play and knowing he will spend more time playing 5 yard passes sitting between the two CBs than trying to move the ball forward.

He constantly makes himself available to receive a pass. At 1 0 last night in the last 10 minutes and with napoli pressing high he kept showing for the ball off the keeper and back 4 while under pressure and got us out. He is very good at breaking up the play. He keeps possession well in midfield. I think he is quite good at most things but not particularly excellent at anything. Overall a very good team player and someone Id feel more comfortable starting a big game over fabinho based on what we have seen so far.

Negative_G · 12-12-2018 11:07PM

RoboKlopp wrote: »

That's the most important point. Klopp knows more than the average punter I'm guessing. You think Klopp cares if people think it's rubbish to watch Henderson? He does a job for him, and he obviously rates him doing that job. Otherwise he wouldn't pick him.

I felt the need to acknowledge the obvious as the argument here seems to revert back to "oh well you think you know more than Klopp so" which is a complete cop out of the discussion.

I and others have laid out where we (as ordinary punters) believe there are major frailties in Hendersons game but the Henderson fan boys use what you have used (knowing more than klopp) as a way to shut down the discussion and try and belittle the other poster.

As the quoted text refers to, hes reverting to a small fish in a big pond and with better players coming in around him he will be managed out in the next 2 seasons I believe, and it won't be to another top 6 team, maybe spurs, he is equally uninspiring as Eric Dier.

I firmly believe that the captains armband shrouds some people's opinions and on the other hand, perhaps it raises some people's expectations.

Charlie19 · 12-12-2018 11:11PM

So here's our potential apponents for the last 16.

Borussia Dortmund
FC Barcelona
FC Porto
Bayern Munich
Real Madrid
Juventus

I'm leaning towards Madrid for some reason.

Agent Coulson · 12-12-2018 11:13PM

Madrid, Porto, Munich any of those 3 would be a decent draw the other 3 would be super tough.

NIMAN · 12-12-2018 11:16PM

I don't think there's a team there Liverpool should fear.

Charlie19 · 12-12-2018 11:17PM

I'd like to avoid Juve for now at least. and maybe Barca.

Negative_G · 12-12-2018 11:18PM

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

He constantly makes himself available to receive a pass. At 1 0 last night in the last 10 minutes and with napoli pressing high he kept showing for the ball off the keeper and back 4 while under pressure and got us out. He is very good at breaking up the play. He keeps possession well in midfield. I think he is quite good at most things but not particularly excellent at anything. Overall a very good team player and someone Id feel more comfortable starting a big game over fabinho based on what we have seen so far.

Finally some semblance of discussion.

I agree with most of your post.

The majority of teams that play liverpool adopt a defensive set up, and invite Liverpool to attack hoping that keeping numbers behind the ball will keep the ball out of the net. Napoli last night came out at Liverpool and their press on the defence was evident but this didn't last the whole game.

Id argue that he is okay at disrupting play. He has rare games where he makes a lot of interceptions but they are few and far between. He has a tendancy to sprint at players from a short distance away which makes it easy for opponents to round him which happened a lot last night.

The last 20mins last night Liverpool were under pressure, they couldnt keep hold of the ball for prolonged periods. He showed for the ball alright but it is almost always recycling possession to one of the CBs or FBs.

Even when he has space around him, he seems reluctant to take the ball forward. Maybe Klopp has instructed him to not take any chances and just keep possession but it is putrid to watch.

I'd try and watch as many live PL and CL games (including non liverpool games) as I can and I cannot think of another player who takes the safe option as often.

The comparison to Georghinos passing doesn't sit with me because he offers so much else to the team.

NIMAN · 12-12-2018 11:19PM

Charlie19 wrote: »

I'd like to avoid Juve for now at least. and maybe Barca.

Juve perhaps, but that Liverpool frontline would create numerous chances against barca defence.

Utopia Parkway · 12-12-2018 11:21PM

Thought after a ropey first 30 minutes that Henderson was very good last night. Won the ball and kept it moving. Even carried the ball well into the Napoli half a few times which is not usually his game. If people are still expecting him to be pinging passes about like Michael Laudrup in 1986 they will continue to be disappointed. He’s pretty much a nuts and bolts type midfielder these days. Win the ball and move it on. Klopp obviously sees a value in this type of player as Gini is similar and he had similar unheralded players at Dortmund like Kevin Großkreutz.

That said I expect VVD will be captain next season as Henderson is obviously now just part of the midfield rotation rather than being a certain starter every game.

Charlie19 · 12-12-2018 11:22PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Juve perhaps, but that Liverpool frontline would create numerous chances against barca defence.

We'll see, It'll be a though draw regardless of the outcome.

The draw is on Monday:eek:

Mr.H · 12-12-2018 11:27PM

I want Madrid. We can take them. With our new defense and keeper I really really want Madrid. I hope that tit plays for them aswell

Gbear · 12-12-2018 11:27PM

Negative_G wrote: »

So instead of the melodramatics why dont you spell out what you believe he brings to the team.

Is it asking to much to expect a midfielder to turn carry the ball forward? I dont expect him to be iniesta or Xavi, a bit of progression would be great. Obviously he does the job that klopp wants him to do and that's great but he is rubbish to watch.

Henderson for me lacks any real quality and doesn't excel in any one area as far as I'm concerned. Maybe the old argument that he "covers a lot of ground" endears him to people.

The first thing that comes to my mind when I see his name on the teamsheet is slow, drawn out play and knowing he will spend more time playing 5 yard passes sitting between the two CBs than trying to move the ball forward.

There's an archetype of player like Henderson, where a good, successful manager, picks unpopular or understated players consistently even though if you had a man off the street tell you what he's about they'd say he's ****e.

The sensible thing to do at that point is to admit the limits of your knowledge of football. It's well and good debating about the minutia but when the facts are so clearly playing out against your argument - ie, a class manager picks said player consistently, particularly targeting him for big games, and that we're doing better every season and having our best season in decades thus far, it's not for the craic, it's not as a favour or because he has blackmail on him, and it's not because the manager can't see what some think is so obvious.

It's the opposite. A manager who knows what it takes to win things puts his trust in this guy. If he was some kind of pub player, not only would he put his overwhelming trust in him for big games, but he wouldn't play him, he'd give the captaincy to Milner or Van Dijk, he'd ship him out at the earliest opportunity. Klopp has no problem ****ing players off if they're not up to it. Karius goes bust, and he's done, he ****s Balotelli off straight away and Sakho gets dumped his arse at a time when we're hardly a defensive powerhouse.

If you were arguing from a position of knowledge and were making decent arguments, then it might be churlish to bring up a tautological argument as to why Henderson is good, but you're not. You're making arguments that make a bunch of assumptions about football that I don't think you can back up.

What I think on his play is that not only do people delude themselves into thinking he plays the ball sideways or backwards more often than he really does, but that that isn't a problem. Again, if it was, Klopp would **** him out of it. We make up most of our ground along the flanks with two athletic attacking full backs who're good footballers, a supporting midfielder who's usually Milner, Bobby and the forward on that flank. Good teams (ie ones that aren't non-league) will not make it easy to just pass through their midfield.

mosstin · 12-12-2018 11:28PM

Anyone remember.....

....when we were strongly linked with Phil Jones and were very disappointed having missed out on his signing? Also, after his first few games with them he was mentioned as the next Duncan Edwards.

Harry Palmr · 12-12-2018 11:37PM

Porto (POR)
Bayern München (GER)
Real Madrid (ESP)

are the three to hope for with Porto obviously the stand out - the other two are falling giants right now so are certainly not to be feared - even if Ramos is. Hopefully Keita will go straight through him if the sides meet.

ElTel · 12-12-2018 11:37PM

Negative_G wrote: »

So instead of the melodramatics why dont you spell out what you believe he brings to the team.

Is it asking to much to expect a midfielder to turn carry the ball forward? I dont expect him to be iniesta or Xavi, a bit of progression would be great. Obviously he does the job that klopp wants him to do and that's great but he is rubbish to watch.

Henderson for me lacks any real quality and doesn't excel in any one area as far as I'm concerned. Maybe the old argument that he "covers a lot of ground" endears him to people.

The first thing that comes to my mind when I see his name on the teamsheet is slow, drawn out play and knowing he will spend more time playing 5 yard passes sitting between the two CBs than trying to move the ball forward.

I can't really disagree with any of this but you have to put it into context as to the way we now play. Our attack is the front three and our "cheating" FBs 90% of the time and his discipline with the safe passes and blocking passing lanes is precisely the reason he gets selected. Could you trust Keita (say) to not play even one risky forward pass in a match that could give the opposition a great counter-attack opportunity (because our FBs are pushed forward)?

Negative_G · 12-12-2018 11:42PM

Gbear wrote: »

There's an archetype of player like Henderson, where a good, successful manager, picks unpopular or understated players consistently even though if you had a man off the street tell you what he's about they'd say he's ****e.

The sensible thing to do at that point is to admit the limits of your knowledge of football. It's well and good debating about the minutia but when the facts are so clearly playing out against your argument - ie, a class manager picks said player consistently, particularly targeting him for big games, and that we're doing better every season and having our best season in decades thus far, it's not for the craic, it's not as a favour or because he has blackmail on him, and it's not because the manager can't see what some think is so obvious.

It's the opposite. A manager who knows what it takes to win things puts his trust in this guy. If he was some kind of pub player, not only would he put his overwhelming trust in him for big games, but he wouldn't play him, he'd give the captaincy to Milner or Van Dijk, he'd ship him out at the earliest opportunity. Klopp has no problem ****ing players off if they're not up to it. Karius goes bust, and he's done, he ****s Balotelli off straight away and Sakho gets dumped his arse at a time when we're hardly a defensive powerhouse.

If you were arguing from a position of knowledge and were making decent arguments, then it might be churlish to bring up a tautological argument as to why Henderson is good, but you're not. You're making arguments that make a bunch of assumptions about football that I don't think you can back up.

What I think on his play is that not only do people delude themselves into thinking he plays the ball sideways or backwards more often than he really does, but that that isn't a problem. Again, if it was, Klopp would **** him out of it. We make up most of our ground along the flanks with two athletic attacking full backs who're good footballers, a supporting midfielder who's usually Milner, Bobby and the forward on that flank. Good teams (ie ones that aren't non-league) will not make it easy to just pass through their midfield.

Ah okay, so we are back to this old chestnut - "You don't know better than klopp". I think that's plainly obvious to anyone really.

Youre not the user that used the "I play/played at a decent level" to try and cement his argument are you? Because your post has a big hint of that
attitude lingering around it.

Now that you've used up your daily allotment of asterix marks perhaps you'd like to discuss what you think he brings to the game.

If your point is that Klopp thinks hes great so he must be doing something right and that I am not a PL manager so therefore my opinions are null and void then great, message received, loud and clear. Move on.

Pyjamarama · 12-12-2018 11:50PM

Negative_G wrote: »

Ah okay, so we are back to this old chestnut - "You don't know better than klopp". I think that's plainly obvious to anyone really.

Youre not the user that used the "I play/played at a decent level" to try and cement his argument are you? Because your post has a big hint of that
attitude lingering around it.

Now that you've used up your daily allotment of asterix marks perhaps you'd like to discuss what you think he brings to the game.

If your point is that Klopp thinks hes great so he must be doing something right and that I am not a PL manager so therefore my opinions are null and void then great, message received, loud and clear. Move on.

Henderson is really reliable in his positioning. Rarely gives the ball away, follows instructions really well and has the respect of his teammates. Its not rocket science...

He can be frustrating sometimes as he isn't always as dynamic with the ball as we as fans would like but sometimes the short pass to the side is whats called for. If he looks up and sees that the defence has all avenues covered then trying to shift them over a bit and see if anyone doesn't react quickly enough is the correct thing to do. Sometimes its ok to have a water carrier on the team and thats what Henderson is.

Also its far from just Klopp who rates him. I still maintain that had he not got suspended we'd have won the league.

Negative_G · 12-12-2018 11:54PM

ElTel wrote: »

I can't really disagree with any of this but you have to put it into context as to the way we now play. Our attack is the front three and our "cheating" FBs 90% of the time and his discipline with the safe passes and blocking passing lanes is precisely the reason he gets selected. Could you trust Keita (say) to not play even one risky forward pass in a match that could give the opposition a great counter-attack opportunity (because our FBs are pushed forward)?

I find (and perhaps some of the resident PL standard managers/players here can clarify) that when Liverpool receive possession deep the formation tends to shift from 4-3-3 to 3-5-2 with the FBs pushing forward and Firmino dropping deep. Henderson drops into the "QB" position between the two CBs. That's my perception of it.

So we have plenty of bodies in Midfield while still stretching the defence further up the field becausd defenders generally don't adopt a high line against us.

So it stands to reason that there are usually plenty of bodies in MF but yet the outlet is almost always sideways to the CBs who recycle it to the FBs further up the field on the wings.

Keita, from the little I've seen seems to be well able to find passes between the lines from midfield to attack. Obviously there is an increasing risk when trying these type of passes further up the field as more players are committed forward.

Van Dijk plays far more accurate long diagonal passes to the FBs than Henderson despite Henderson being usually not more than a few yards away.

I accept he's doing a job and following orders but it would be great to see him carry the ball forward and to look up and forward more often as opposed to taking the more conservative option.

Negative_G · 12-12-2018 11:56PM

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Also its far from just Klopp who rates him. I still maintain that had he not got suspended we'd have won the league.

While I wouldnt go quite that far I would agree that he was excellent that season and far more dynamic as you alluded to.

He is a water carrier, thats a fact.

Osmosis Jones · 13-12-2018 12:01AM

Whether or not we would've won the league had Henderson not been suspended doesn't really impact what he is as a player today, that was 5 seasons ago.

fyfe79 · 13-12-2018 12:03AM

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Henderson is really reliable in his positioning. Rarely gives the ball away, follows instructions really well and has the respect of his teammates. Its not rocket science...

He can be frustrating sometimes as he isn't always as dynamic with the ball as we as fans would like but sometimes the short pass to the side is whats called for. If he looks up and sees that the defence has all avenues covered then trying to shift them over a bit and see if anyone doesn't react quickly enough is the correct thing to do. Sometimes its ok to have a water carrier on the team and thats what Henderson is.

Also its far from just Klopp who rates him. I still maintain that had he not got suspended we'd have won the league.

Will always believe this too. When Stevie slipped (and we became all emotional??), there was nobody right where Hendo would've been to cut off the attack leading to the first goal for Chelsea. We were absolutely wide open.

facehugger99 · 13-12-2018 12:06AM

Negative_G wrote: »

While I wouldnt go quite that far I would agree that he was excellent that season and far more dynamic as you alluded to.

He is a water carrier, thats a fact.

He’s a fantastic player. A succession of elite level managers haven’t just had him in their teams, they’ve made him their captain.

The fact you can’t see his worth, isn’t anyone else’s problem but yours.

PaddyWilliams · 13-12-2018 12:08AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

He’s a fantastic player. A succession of elite level managers haven’t just had him in their teams, they’ve made him their captain.

The fact you can’t see his worth, isn’t anyone else’s problem but yours.

Careful now or you'll be accused of using the "Klopp knows better than you" argument! :pac::pac:

DrumSteve · 13-12-2018 12:13AM

Far from being overrated, I’d argue hendo is underrated. Great player and model pro.

stampydmonkey · 13-12-2018 12:15AM

Negative_G wrote: »

While I wouldnt go quite that far I would agree that he was excellent that season and far more dynamic as you alluded to.

He is a water carrier, thats a fact.

I find your constant reversion on the same topic quite boring, and that's a fact. People have different opinions and have offered them. Whether you agree or not, big deal...but can we move on from Henderson...pretty please

shamrock55 · 13-12-2018 12:33AM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Really!

You felt the need to say that.

Ah jesus what precious pc line of yours did I cross now, I said the word concentration camp in a slightly humorous context and your all over it, get a grip of yourself lad

ElTel · 13-12-2018 12:34AM

Negative_G wrote: »

I find (and perhaps some of the resident PL standard managers/players here can clarify) that when Liverpool receive possession deep the formation tends to shift from 4-3-3 to 3-5-2 with the FBs pushing forward and Firmino dropping deep. Henderson drops into the "QB" position between the two CBs. That's my perception of it.

So we have plenty of bodies in Midfield while still stretching the defence further up the field becausd defenders generally don't adopt a high line against us.

So it stands to reason that there are usually plenty of bodies in MF but yet the outlet is almost always sideways to the CBs who recycle it to the FBs further up the field on the wings.

Keita, from the little I've seen seems to be well able to find passes between the lines from midfield to attack. Obviously there is an increasing risk when trying these type of passes further up the field as more players are committed forward.

Van Dijk plays far more accurate long diagonal passes to the FBs than Henderson despite Henderson being usually not more than a few yards away.

I accept he's doing a job and following orders but it would be great to see him carry the ball forward and to look up and forward more often as opposed to taking the more conservative option.

That would be my take on it too (as an armchair fan). We are struggling to find Firmino before he drops really deep and I'm sure Keita, given a run of games would work up a dynamic understanding with him but I'd guess that the pragmatic/conservative style would be maintained with one of the FBs sitting and still leaving a back five when this happens.

The next "trick" for us is for the sitting FB (Robbo say) to time a forward run for when Trent stops and gives a short pass, having received the long diagonal from VVD, so one of the other mids can diagonal to him.

Agent Coulson · 13-12-2018 12:44AM

shamrock55 wrote: »

Ah jesus what precious pc line of yours did I cross now, I said the word concentration camp in a slightly humorous context and your all over it, get a grip of yourself lad

Nothing PC at all

Using concentration camp as humor really!

If you think using the deaths of 6 million people is humour about a footballer getting injured well then it say more about you than anything else.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2018

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