Grenfell and combustible ACP cladding

Lumen · 07-12-2018 10:13AM #1

Don't remember seeing any dicussion of Grenfell here, so thought I'd start a new thread.

I was doing some reading around on the latest w.r.t. Grenfell type cladding and came across this wiki.

https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire
https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/ACM_cladding_testing_by_BRE

It's really interesting. I learned nothing from the news coverage at the time.

The tldr version seems to be that if you build something from combustible components (cladding and/or insulation) with a nice air gap it burns really well, and if that building is taller than firefighting ladders people die.

One might think this is common sense.

And right at the end of the second link...

ABI [the Association of British Insurers] has called for a ban on the use of all combustible materials in external cladding systems.

That's not quite true. The focus is on high-rise and high-risk buildings.

https://www.abi.org.uk/news/news-articles/2018/10/ban-on-combustible-cladding-does-not-go-far-enough/

What's the situation in Ireland with this type of cladding? Is it used much? Are the regs different? I guess we don't have that many high rise buildings.

Aside from the fire risk, I can imagine a situation in which certain buildings become uninsurable.

dusteeroads · 07-12-2018 10:31AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbggwtZ5RSc

nothing ever changes

Gumbo · 07-12-2018 11:51AM

Lumen wrote: »

Don't remember seeing any dicussion of Grenfell here, so thought I'd start a new thread.

I was doing some reading around on the latest w.r.t. Grenfell type cladding and came across this wiki.

https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire
https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/ACM_cladding_testing_by_BRE

It's really interesting. I learned nothing from the news coverage at the time.

The tldr version seems to be that if you build something from combustible components (cladding and/or insulation) with a nice air gap it burns really well, and if that building is taller than firefighting ladders people die.

One might think this is common sense.

And right at the end of the second link...

That's not quite true. The focus is on high-rise and high-risk buildings.

https://www.abi.org.uk/news/news-articles/2018/10/ban-on-combustible-cladding-does-not-go-far-enough/

What's the situation in Ireland with this type of cladding? Is it used much? Are the regs different? I guess we don't have that many high rise buildings.

Aside from the fire risk, I can imagine a situation in which certain buildings become uninsurable.

A major survey was carried out after Grenfell on all buildings with external cladding system sin Dublin. I think it may have been country wide but I can only speak for Dublin as that's where im based.

Most passed the test, but a couple have to carry out remedial works at significant cost. One out in Clongriffin jumps out at me.

ht9zni1gs28crp · 11-12-2018 10:54AM

I work in this industry, Im up to my eyeballs in reclads at the moment. There are a number of older products on the market that when installed together are the catalyst for a condeming order.

ACM at the moment is the black sheep of the family. Any building with continuous ACM cladding over 18m high is under scrutiny. Couple that with combustible insulation used where it shouldnt have been means a lot of heartache.

People dying in Grenfell is a result of a lot of combinations all failing at once, not just the cladding. From the lack of detection, direction, compartment safe zones breached and un hindered cladding zones. No reasonable material can safely withold fire, its all down to how long it can withstand. The time frame requirements are all down to the total egress time set out.

There arent that many buildings in Ireland over 18m compared to the likes of the UK. Which is arguably a good thing in design and for an aspect of horizon. Although I suspect there are still many buildings out there with their own hidden fire risks not related to cladding. Regs in Ireland will follow closely to those of the UK if not mirror them exactly.

Case Study. Current Situation .
12 Storey Apartment Block. Fully clad in ACM Panels. Local Fire Chief has condemmend it. Total reclad of the building at the Apartment owners cost. I dread to think of each owners bill but its not pretty.

Residents are allowed to remain in apartments but a series of nightwatchmen to sit on each floor have to be employed to suplement the detection system until works are complete.

Gumbo · 11-12-2018 12:06PM

Hugo Greasy Rosebush wrote: »

I work in this industry, Im up to my eyeballs in reclads at the moment. There are a number of older products on the market that when installed together are the catalyst for a condeming order.

ACM at the moment is the black sheep of the family. Any building with continuous ACM cladding over 18m high is under scrutiny. Couple that with combustible insulation used where it shouldnt have been means a lot of heartache.

People dying in Grenfell is a result of a lot of combinations all failing at once, not just the cladding. From the lack of detection, direction, compartment safe zones breached and un hindered cladding zones. No reasonable material can safely withold fire, its all down to how long it can withstand. The time frame requirements are all down to the total egress time set out.

There arent that many buildings in Ireland over 18m compared to the likes of the UK. Which is arguably a good thing in design and for an aspect of horizon. Although I suspect there are still many buildings out there with their own hidden fire risks not related to cladding. Regs in Ireland will follow closely to those of the UK if not mirror them exactly.

Case Study. Current Situation .
12 Storey Apartment Block. Fully clad in ACM Panels. Local Fire Chief has condemmend it. Total reclad of the building at the Apartment owners cost. I dread to think of each owners bill but its not pretty.

Residents are allowed to remain in apartments but a series of nightwatchmen to sit on each floor have to be employed to suplement the detection system until works are complete.

+1 And the fact that London fire Brigade operate a "Stay Put" moto, which Dublin Fire brigade do not operate.

DFB officially state "Get Out".

dusteeroads · 11-12-2018 12:09PM

kceire wrote: »

+1 And the fact that London fire Brigade operate a "Stay Put" moto, which Dublin Fire brigade do not operate.

DFB officially state "Get Out".

Did not know that - but glad to hear it.

The stay put policy is roundly condemned in the Youtube item I posted above.

Del2005 · 11-12-2018 12:14PM

kceire wrote: »

+1 And the fact that London fire Brigade operate a "Stay Put" moto, which Dublin Fire brigade do not operate.

DFB officially state "Get Out".

DFB used to operate stay put until Priory Hall exposed our bigger issue.

Apartments are supposed to be safe inside but cost cutting and lax regulation means that they are death traps now.

ht9zni1gs28crp · 11-12-2018 12:18PM

Same with the 'flight before fight' policy I would advocate. Get out, get out and just get out is the phrase that needs to be drummed into and fire tests/drills etc. Same as you should at home with your family, Its worth ten minutes walk around your house showing the escape routes and talking about options. Not everyone thinks the same was as those in the industry do.

Gumbo · 11-12-2018 03:08PM

Del2005 wrote: »

DFB used to operate stay put until Priory Hall exposed our bigger issue.

Apartments are supposed to be safe inside but cost cutting and lax regulation means that they are death traps now.

Safe for a limited amount of time. There's only so much time the fabric f the building can hold back smoke and fire.

Hugo Greasy Rosebush wrote: »

Same with the 'flight before fight' policy I would advocate. Get out, get out and just get out is the phrase that needs to be drummed into and fire tests/drills etc. Same as you should at home with your family, Its worth ten minutes walk around your house showing the escape routes and talking about options. Not everyone thinks the same was as those in the industry do.

Get Out, Get the Fire Brigade Out and Stay Out!

GreeBo · 12-12-2018 11:50AM

kceire wrote: »

Safe for a limited amount of time. There's only so much time the fabric f the building can hold back smoke and fire.

If built properly they should be viable for an hour+ if you are near the fire and obviously longer if you are not, plenty of time to get out.

The issue is that they are not built properly and fires are jumping from room to room and apartment to apartment, and in these examples they are doing it via external cladding/insulation making it impossible for fire-fighters to tackle them.

In a properly built building, staying put is safer than trying to make your way through choking smoke, but a properly built building would have fire breaks and sprinklers.

All that said, I would want to be *VERY* confident in the construction before I would sit around and wait to be rescued.

kceire wrote: »

Get Out, Get the Fire Brigade Out and Stay Out!

Thats for houses/etc where there is no expectation on fire resistance and aims to stop people trying to fight the fire or save personal items.

Gumbo · 12-12-2018 01:59PM

GreeBo wrote: »

If built properly they should be viable for an hour+ if you are near the fire and obviously longer if you are not, plenty of time to get out.

In some cases 30 minute fire resistance is all that's required. That's enough time to get alerted and get out.

GreeBo wrote: »

In a properly built building, staying put is safer than trying to make your way through choking smoke, but a properly built building would have fire breaks and sprinklers.

All that said, I would want to be *VERY* confident in the construction before I would sit around and wait to be rescued.

In a properly built building, the compartment is the unit, the escape stairs should not be full of smoke at all, so its safer to get out through the protected stair core.

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats for houses/etc where there is no expectation on fire resistance and aims to stop people trying to fight the fire or save personal items.

3 storey houses have protected stair cores too with fire doors to keep the core free of smoke and fire. Use these to get out.

In any situation, houses, apartments, offices, retail, get out and stay out. Full Stop.

GreeBo · 12-12-2018 02:19PM

kceire wrote: »

In some cases 30 minute fire resistance is all that's required. That's enough time to get alerted and get out.

In a properly built building, the compartment is the unit, the escape stairs should not be full of smoke at all, so its safer to get out through the protected stair core.

You have to be able to get to the escape stairs though, which usually means passing through a communal area which, depending on where the fire is, can contain smoke. Also even escape stairs can contain smoke since if the entire building is trying to use them, they are open to the fire.

3 storey houses have protected stair cores too with fire doors to keep the core free of smoke and fire. Use these to get out.

I dont think I have ever seen a 3 storey house where the entire stairs is enclosed with a fire core in Ireland, do you have examples?

In any case, I specifically said this advice does not apply to houses.

ht9zni1gs28crp · 12-12-2018 02:58PM

GreeBo wrote: »

You have to be able to get to the escape stairs though, which usually means passing through a communal area which, depending on where the fire is, can contain smoke. Also even escape stairs can contain smoke since if the entire building is trying to use them, they are open to the fire

These travel distances are carefully setout in regulations. These maximum distances set travel from any point of the room to the safe compartmented area. Usually in Apartment blocks, once you reach the communal area you are in the compartmented safe egress zone. Each compartement zone will resist fire impact for a set amount of time, and will usually incorporate a ventilation system that kicks in upon detection to vent smoke to allow occupants to escape over a set time. These compartments are usually 90mins Protection or upwards dependant on how many occupants are down to utilise the escape or if its a designated Fire Fighters access point these can go to 120mins+.

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think I have ever seen a 3 storey house where the entire stairs is enclosed with a fire core in Ireland, do you have examples?

Any house over three stories has to have a fire plan, this may include fire doors /safe zone if the above mentioned Travel Distances are exceeded. You may or may not actually notice the physical characteristics but they should be there by law.

GreeBo wrote: »

In any case, I specifically said this advice does not apply to houses.

The overall mantra of 'get out and stay out' applies to any building

GreeBo · 12-12-2018 03:18PM

Hugo Greasy Rosebush wrote: »

The overall mantra of 'get out and stay out' applies to any building

The FDNY disagrees with you.
http://www.fdnysmart.org/safetytips/fire-proof-or-non-fire-proof/

You get out if you are in imminent danger or if its safe to do so.
"safe to do so" depends hugely on the construction of the building you are in.

There are examples of people dying within the fire stairs due to the firemen using those stairs to fight the fire (and causing a chimney effect for the smoke) whereas everyone else who stayed in their apartments survived.

Gumbo · 12-12-2018 04:48PM

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think I have ever seen a 3 storey house where the entire stairs is enclosed with a fire core in Ireland, do you have examples?

Go look at any 3 storey house constructed new in Ireland.
Fire doors to the stair core, keeps the fire contained to the room for 30 minutes. The stair core itself is 30 minute fir rated construction.

GreeBo wrote: »

The FDNY disagrees with you.
http://www.fdnysmart.org/safetytips/fire-proof-or-non-fire-proof/

We are specifically talking about Dublin Fire Brigade.

ht9zni1gs28crp · 13-12-2018 10:07AM

GreeBo wrote: »

The FDNY disagrees with you.
http://www.fdnysmart.org/safetytips/fire-proof-or-non-fire-proof/

You get out if you are in imminent danger or if its safe to do so.
"safe to do so" depends hugely on the construction of the building you are in.

There are examples of people dying within the fire stairs due to the firemen using those stairs to fight the fire (and causing a chimney effect for the smoke) whereas everyone else who stayed in their apartments survived.

Because most people in Ireland live in high rise apartment blocks in downtown Manhattan. :rolleyes:

Have you actually read the article you linked in full before creating a response, or are you just fishing? The clue may be in the title.....

Know your building and know your escape plan, this applies to every building in the world. In Ireland Technical Guidance Document part B aims by design to ensure full and safe egress of all occupants within a structure.

Gumbo · 13-12-2018 11:18AM

Hugo Greasy Rosebush wrote: »

Because most people in Ireland live in high rise apartment blocks in downtown Manhattan. :rolleyes:

Have you actually read the article you linked in full before creating a response, or are you just fishing? The clue may be in the title.....

Know your building and know your escape plan, this applies to every building in the world. In Ireland Technical Guidance Document part B aims by design to ensure full and safe egress of all occupants within a structure.

+1
Generally speaking, in Ireland, Fire Safety is designed around Life Safety rather than property protection, so get the occupants out through protected escape routes.

GreeBo · 13-12-2018 01:03PM

kceire wrote: »

Go look at any 3 storey house constructed new in Ireland.
Fire doors to the stair core, keeps the fire contained to the room for 30 minutes. The stair core itself is 30 minute fir rated construction.

Since when?
I've looked at 3 storey houses and there are no doors between the stairs and "landings".

kceire wrote: »

We are specifically talking about Dublin Fire Brigade.

In a thread titles "Grenfell"?
I think we are specifically talking about fires in tall buildings.

Hugo Greasy Rosebush wrote: »

Because most people in Ireland live in high rise apartment blocks in downtown Manhattan. :rolleyes:

I dont know why you are rolling your eyes. We are not talking about people in Ireland. We are talking about fires in tall buildings.

Hugo Greasy Rosebush wrote: »

Have you actually read the article you linked in full before creating a response, or are you just fishing? The clue may be in the title.....

I have read the article in full.

Hugo Greasy Rosebush wrote: »

Know your building and know your escape plan, this applies to every building in the world. In Ireland Technical Guidance Document part B aims by design to ensure full and safe egress of all occupants within a structure.

Yes know your building.
In modern buildings it is often safer to stay in the building if the building is designed that way.
Or are you disagreeing with the FDNY?

dusteeroads · 13-12-2018 02:30PM

ht9zni1gs28crp · 13-12-2018 02:54PM

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont know why you are rolling your eyes. We are not talking about people in Ireland. We are talking about fires in tall buildings.

Ultimatley we are talking about people in Ireland, OP opened a discussion on Grenfell with a query to an Irish view on our own buildings. Irish Technical Guidance documents are derived from BRE and BS with our own slant on it.

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes know your building.
In modern buildings it is often safer to stay in the building if the building is designed that way.
Or are you disagreeing with the FDNY?

You are talking about Ireland here, and the correllation between 'As Builts' and 'For Construction' drawings is often miles apart. What goes in on site historically here in Ireland has proven this too true.....

So yes in a 'modern Irish' building I am disagreeing with the Fire Department of New York in Ireland.

Why not open a seperate discussion regarding fires in tall buildings in New York.

Gumbo · 13-12-2018 03:06PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Since when?
I've looked at 3 storey houses and there are no doors between the stairs and "landings".

I've no idea what kind of properties you are looking at, but we have national Fire Safety Regulations for 3 storey houses here in Ireland.

Go pick a new development on sale anywhere this weekend. If they have 3 storey houses, go look at them.

sydthebeat · 13-12-2018 03:27PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Since when?
I've looked at 3 storey houses and there are no doors between the stairs and "landings".

why have you used quotation marks around the word landings, when no one else has used that word, or even referred to landings, in this thread?

dusteeroads · 13-12-2018 03:31PM

https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/

https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/evidence

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/grenfell-tower

Back to point references

GreeBo · 13-12-2018 03:36PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

why have you used quotation marks around the word landings, when no one else has used that word, or even referred to landings, in this thread?

Because I'm including landings and hallways but didn't want to type it.

What a bizarre question.

GreeBo · 13-12-2018 03:38PM

Hugo Greasy Rosebush wrote: »

So yes in a 'modern Irish' building I am disagreeing with the Fire Department of New York in Ireland.

Actually, if you had read the article you would see that you are agreeing with them.
Get out if thats what the building is designed for, stay put if thats what the building is designed for.

GreeBo · 13-12-2018 03:40PM

kceire wrote: »

I've no idea what kind of properties you are looking at, but we have national Fire Safety Regulations for 3 storey houses here in Ireland.

Go pick a new development on sale anywhere this weekend. If they have 3 storey houses, go look at them.

Are you talking about only the 3rd storey staircase perhaps?

sydthebeat · 13-12-2018 03:45PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Because I'm including landings and hallways but didn't want to type it.

What a bizarre question.

??
you DID type it though.....

why did you mention landings when no one else did ???

GreeBo · 13-12-2018 03:47PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

??
you DID type it though.....

why did you mention landings when no one else did ???

landings and HALLWAYS.

I didnt bother typing hallways.

I mentioned landings (and hallways) because thats what you end up on when you exit a stairs....right?

I'm saying I havent seen a 3 storey house in Ireland, new or otherwise, where there is a door from the stairs to each landing/hallway.

sydthebeat · 13-12-2018 03:50PM

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm saying I havent seen a 3 storey house in Ireland, new or otherwise, where there is a door from the stairs to each landing/hallway.

and who said otherwise?

GreeBo · 13-12-2018 03:53PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

and who said otherwise?

These two posts did.

kceire wrote: »

Go look at any 3 storey house constructed new in Ireland.
Fire doors to the stair core, keeps the fire contained to the room for 30 minutes. The stair core itself is 30 minute fir rated construction.

kceire wrote: »

Go pick a new development on sale anywhere this weekend. If they have 3 storey houses, go look at them.

sydthebeat · 13-12-2018 03:58PM

GreeBo wrote: »

These two posts did.

ill let kceire speak for himself but when he says

keeps the fire contained to the room for 30 minutes

i read that as the enclosure between the room and escape route ie hallway / landing / stairs

Grenfell and combustible ACP cladding

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