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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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Comments

  • #8642
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,560 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Skelet0n wrote: »
    This is one of the more bizarre view points of brexit.
    It's not voting on the same thing again, it'd be voting on the deal that is on the table not some abstract concept.

    You can't have too much democracy, the real reason this line is being touted is because they're afraid that they'll lose the vote without the help of Putin and the biting reality of brexit being self-imposed economic sanctions.

    Some of the brexiteers, including Hannon have said that if there is a 2nd referendum that they'd call for a boycott of it.

    They claim that this is as a protest about the undemocratic nature of a 2nd referendum. In fact, the boycott would be an undemocratic act designed to delegitimise an act of democracy because they know they would lose another vote. Refusing to participate means they are no longer interested in the democratic process and what is the next step for them to further their aims? Civil disobedience? Violence?

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #8643
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,233 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    That I completely agree with you on. The fact we have a minority government in Ireland presently and yet the opposition parties have facilitated its continuance in the national interest is quite extraordinary. But something I am massively grateful for.

    Before we go all gooey on new politics as well as FF FG confidence and supply, the reason we've not had an election is because none of the parties have been able to build a lead that would significantly change the numbers in the Dail. Add in that the electorate wouldn't look kindly on an election before April as we need something better than a caretaker government at this time and we get the present day situation. The cynic in me sees that it is only fortuitous that the national interest has aligned with the interest of the parties.

    I'd expect an election almost as soon as Brexit is resolved, or at least the time pressure taken away.


  • #8644
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,705 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Before we go all gooey on new politics as well as FF FG confidence and supply, the reason we've not had an election is because none of the parties have been able to build a lead that would significantly change the numbers in the Dail. Add in that the electorate wouldn't look kindly on an election before April as we need something better than a caretaker government at this time and we get the present day situation. The cynic in me sees that it is only fortuitous that the national interest has aligned with the interest of the parties.

    I'd expect an election almost as soon as Brexit is resolved, or at least the time pressure taken away.

    I'll retain the gooey eyes, because we've managed to handle two massively contentious referendums the past few years in fine style and are acquitting ourselves exceptionally well on Brexit - including stellar work from the diplomatic core in Brussels to get this issue front and center in the negotiations in the first place. We're doing okay.


  • #8645
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,410 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Some of the brexiteers, including Hannon have said that if there is a 2nd referendum that they'd call for a boycott of it.

    They claim that this is as a protest about the undemocratic nature of a 2nd referendum. In fact, the boycott would be an undemocratic act designed to delegitimise an act of democracy because they know they would lose another vote. Refusing to participate means they are no longer interested in the democratic process and what is the next step for them to further their aims? Civil disobedience? Violence?

    The boycott would only hold weight if Remain were on the ballot. If the 2nd ref ended up being between no deal and May's deal, they might as well vote because they'll be getting Brexit either way. It would just be a case of how hard a Brexit they want.


  • #8646
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Lord Ashcroft has conducted polling - 44% of Remainers claim to be clearer about the implications of Brexit, compared to 20% of Leavers (an equal percentage of the latter are actually less clear now):

    https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1072402544394166277


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  • #8647
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    seamus wrote: »
    May is on a tour of EU leaders because she genuinely believes that this is how she is going to get the deal amended.


    I don't think she expects the tour to achieve anything, she is just play-acting for the eejits in Parliament. She wants to give MPs the impression that she has done everything possible.


    It's like the Unions and Government negotiators sitting in a room eating ham sandwiches and drinking tea all night until 6 am, when they emerge blinking for the morning news cameras, letting on they were negotiating hard until the last minute.


  • #8648
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Trump and Brexit: the politics of anger and schadenfreude

    Brexit needs to happen for no other reason than 'we won when you said we wouldn't / couldn't / shouldn't'

    It's probably pointless debating this mindset unfortunately.

    you're correct. there probably is no point in debating it. people either get it or they do not.
    what's at stake is the very basis of democracy.
    either a persons' vote counts or it does not. once you start playing around with this basic principle, then democracy is dead imo.

    i would probably have voted remain, but if they started calling for a rerun, then i would vote leave. and there are many remain voters who feel the same way. see the difference between them and you is they respect people's vote.


  • #8649
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    it seems to me that some of these liberals cant just take a beatin'.


    Are you calling me a Liberal?


    Why?


  • #8650
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Trump and Brexit: the politics of anger and schadenfreude

    Brexit needs to happen for no other reason than 'we won when you said we wouldn't / couldn't / shouldn't'

    It's probably pointless debating this mindset unfortunately.

    you're correct. there probably is no point in debating it. people either get it or they do not.
    what's at stake is the very basis of democracy.
    either a persons' vote counts or it does not. once you start playing around with this basic principle, then democracy is dead imo.

    i would probably have voted remain, but if they started calling for a rerun, then i would vote leave. and there are many remain voters who feel the same way. see the difference between them and you is they respect people's vote.

    Which is all well and good, but if the Leave advocates are still unable to agree after almost three years as to the trading basis upon which the UK should operate, they can only blame themselves if a second vote asks the people to choose between May's Brexit and Remain.


  • #8651
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    i would probably have voted remain, but if they started calling for a rerun, then i would vote leave. and there are many remain voters who feel the same way. see the difference between them and you is they respect people's vote.

    What do you think about Theresa May who decided that she didn't like the result of the previous general election and therefore she should call another one because she did not 'respect people's vote'.

    Ask a few Tories opposed to the peoples vote that and especially the ones that supported the calling of a needless general election and you will see hypocrisy in action.


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  • #8652
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    you're correct. there probably is no point in debating it. people either get it or they do not.
    what's at stake is the very basis of democracy.
    either a persons' vote counts or it does not. once you start playing around with this basic principle, then democracy is dead imo.

    i would probably have voted remain, but if they started calling for a rerun, then i would vote leave. and there are many remain voters who feel the same way. see the difference between them and you is they respect people's vote.

    If there's an election and no government can be formed, there is a re-election.
    Same thing, and the very definiton of democracy.


  • #8653
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Some interesting numbers here:
    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2018/12/what-should-happen-next-what-really-matters-and-how-bad-is-this-crisis-my-new-brexit-deal-poll/

    No real surprises but honestly it does show how in denial the leave side are and whatever happens there is going to be troubl brewing from one side or another as people are even more divided than when the vote happened.


  • #8654
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    An Ciarraioch wrote: »
    Which is all well and good, but if the Leave advocates are still unable to agree after almost three years as to the trading basis upon which the UK should operate, they can only blame themselves if a second vote asks the people to choose between May's Brexit and Remain.

    i would say quite a percentage of brits are wondering if democracy is ALREADY dead, given May's lies, misinformation, cowardice, and obfuscation.

    from my experience once something starts to smell this bad, then it's best to throw it out...


  • #8655
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    ....they respect people's vote.

    I think it would be more respectful (of the people and democracy) for them to run a second referendum on the basis that what was voted for 2.5 years ago was an idea, with no detail. Now there is reality, with detail.

    Let the people have the opportunity to change their mind or reaffirm what they voted for 2.5 years ago.

    That would be respectful....


  • #8656
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Reminder to those who are against a second vote.

    People do not want a vote to overturn the first vote - they want a vote because that Parliament is unable to agree what they want and therefore a peoples vote is needed to break the deadlock and therefore it is democratic to ask the people what they think, since the democratically elected MPs cannot come to an agreement.


  • #8657
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,410 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Why doesn't May go over the heads of the DUP and her more "....& Unionist" colleagues by putting the idea of the backstop directly to the people of Northern Ireland? The DUP have had far too much leeway in saying they represent the views of NI at this stage.


  • #8658
    RobMc59
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    i would say quite a percentage of brits are wondering if democracy is ALREADY dead, given May's lies, misinformation, cowardice, and obfuscation.

    from my experience once something starts to smell this bad, then it's best to throw it out...

    I`m British and I and many people I`ve spoken to are in despair at the actions of TM.Her refusal to answer a direct question and delusional,dogged insistence to "carry on regardless"which is there for the whole world to see is breathtaking in it`s futility.
    Watching Jeremy Corbyn earlier on sky news,I hoped he would have put forward a motion of no confidence in the government but he continues to sit on the fence.


  • #8659
    marno21
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I`m British and I and many people I`ve spoken to are in despair at the actions of TM.Her refusal to answer a direct question and delusional,dogged insistence to "carry on regardless"which is there for the whole world to see is breathtaking in it`s futility.
    Watching Jeremy Corbyn earlier on sky news,I hoped he would have put forward a motion of no confidence in the government but he continues to sit on the fence.
    Of course, having such a toothless Leader of the Opposition is enabling this continued mess. It would be so much better if someone like Keir Starmer was in charge of Labour who could provide actual Opposition to this mess instead of having Barry Gardiner on the debate trying to pawn Labour's alternative unicorns.


  • #8660
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Some of the brexiteers, including Hannon have said that if there is a 2nd referendum that they'd call for a boycott of it.

    They claim that this is as a protest about the undemocratic nature of a 2nd referendum. In fact, the boycott would be an undemocratic act designed to delegitimise an act of democracy because they know they would lose another vote. Refusing to participate means they are no longer interested in the democratic process and what is the next step for them to further their aims? Civil disobedience? Violence?


    In fairness, they have threatened to boycott a second referendum if there are 2 options, one of which is remain and the other of which is to accept the current deal.....because neither of them gives them the opportunity to vote for Brexit.


  • #8661
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,819 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    In fairness, they have threatened to boycott a second referendum if there are 2 options, one of which is remain and the other of which is to accept the current deal.....because neither of them gives them the opportunity to vote for Brexit.


    They only have 3 options at this stage so they might as well include the 3rd. A no deal and a hard Brexit.


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  • #8662
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    charlie14 wrote: »
    They only have 3 options at this stage so they might as well include the 3rd. A no deal and a hard Brexit.

    Agreed. But the conspiracy theorists are saying the second referendum with only 2 options, neither of which really constitutes Brexit, is being willfully engineered. They MIGHT be right!


  • #8663
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,558 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    A question for those more "up to speed" on UK's laws etc. but if Corbyn gets in government come April (held back to ensure he can blame it on the Cons properly as things get chaotic) would he be able to use the same law from the 1800s allowing ministers to make law changes without going to parliament? Because I could see Corbyn loving the idea of being able to change laws as he sees fit without oversight as another reason to hold back now...


  • #8664
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,410 ✭✭✭✭briany


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I`m British and I and many people I`ve spoken to are in despair at the actions of TM.Her refusal to answer a direct question and delusional,dogged insistence to "carry on regardless"which is there for the whole world to see is breathtaking in it`s futility.
    Watching Jeremy Corbyn earlier on sky news,I hoped he would have put forward a motion of no confidence in the government but he continues to sit on the fence.

    If he was going to put that motion in, you'd probably have known about it all morning. Same as how May's intention to postpone the vote was known about.


  • #8665
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I`m British and I and many people I`ve spoken to are in despair at the actions of TM.Her refusal to answer a direct question and delusional,dogged insistence to "carry on regardless"which is there for the whole world to see is breathtaking in it`s futility.
    Watching Jeremy Corbyn earlier on sky news,I hoped he would have put forward a motion of no confidence in the government but he continues to sit on the fence.

    it's worrying
    when your Govt. goes walkies, but when your opposition goes MIA also, then that's deeply concerning.

    talk about Nero and his fiddle, lute or whatever...


  • #8666
    joe40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭joe40


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    you're correct. there probably is no point in debating it. people either get it or they do not.
    what's at stake is the very basis of democracy.
    either a persons' vote counts or it does not. once you start playing around with this basic principle, then democracy is dead imo.

    i would probably have voted remain, but if they started calling for a rerun, then i would vote leave. and there are many remain voters who feel the same way. see the difference between them and you is they respect people's vote.

    This is a unique situation though. Britain has a representative democracy where MPs are elected to represent their constituents.

    If you put the following 3 options to parliament, the following would happen:

    May's Deal - Fail
    Abandon Brexit - Fail
    No deal exit - Fail

    As far as I can see parliament (the voice of the people) is in a logjam about how to proceed with the referendum. It is quite a unique situation and for that reason alone another vote is merited


  • #8667
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,943 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I`m British and I and many people I`ve spoken to are in despair at the actions of TM.Her refusal to answer a direct question and delusional,dogged insistence to "carry on regardless"which is there for the whole world to see is breathtaking in it`s futility.
    Watching Jeremy Corbyn earlier on sky news,I hoped he would have put forward a motion of no confidence in the government but he continues to sit on the fence.

    It would be a pointless no-confidence motion as it would have near zero chance of winning. It could actually strengthen her position.


  • #8668
    fash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    By rights there are 3 options on the table besides "no deal" for a potential referendum:
    1. Remain;
    2. May's Brexit;
    3. "Shaft Northern Ireland" brexit.
    That would be an interesting "let's see the brexiters fight among themselves" situation


  • #8669
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    joe40 wrote: »
    This is a unique situation though. Britain has a representative democracy where MPs are elected to represent their constituents.

    If you put the following 3 options to parliament, the following would happen:

    May's Deal - Fail
    Abandon Brexit - Fail
    No deal exit - Fail

    As far as I can see parliament (the voice of the people) is in a logjam about how to proceed with the referendum. It is quite a unique situation and for that reason alone another vote is merited

    so let's assume we have a 2nd "people's" vote.
    what question do you put on the ballot paper?

    the same question again? Stay or Leave
    a 3 way question?
    a 2 way question?

    what if you get the same vote again, then what?
    what if you get a reverse decision, but of the same proportions (52 v 48) as before? a 3rd vote?


  • #8670
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    fash wrote: »
    By rights there are 3 options on the table besides "no deal" for a potential referendum:
    1. Remain;
    2. May's Brexit;
    3. "Shaft Northern Ireland" brexit.
    That would be an interesting "let's see the brexiters fight among themselves" situation

    so if 35% vote for one option, and 65% vote for the other 2, is it right and proper that one third hold sway over two-thirds?


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  • #8671
    RobMc59
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    It would be a pointless no-confidence motion as it would have near zero chance of winning. It could actually strengthen her position.

    Which as other posters have quite rightly pointed out is not in the interests of the country and has exposed the failings of the UK political system.If the politicians truly care about their country and not just their own ambitions they need to prove it now before the UK stumbles into a catastrophic no deal brexit imo.


This discussion has been closed.
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