Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

wrangler · 09-12-2018 12:59PM

Reggie. wrote: »

In fairness to them keepgrowing at the last meeting they were saying that dairy farmers need an outlook for their calves too. There was no dairy bashing at it. I do think tho suckler farming is in for a tough time in the future

Dairy farmers and their derogation are getting fair criticism on face book, are they a bit save the planet as well.....open season on IFA too there, A fellow contractor is correcting a few misconceptions for them, I'm sure you know him.
Someone asked how many members are beef finishers and got an evasive reply....I wonder,

patsy_mccabe · 09-12-2018 01:51PM

Keepgrowing wrote: »

What’s their plan for the over supply of beef in Europe?
I attended their local meeting and lots of plans but viable solutions.
Any thing to do with genomics was rubbished yet it has made the Irish dairy herd one of the most fertile in the world.

When you have an elected member of the Dail calling the Genomics scheme "The greatest bollix of a scheme that ever came out" what hope have you?

coolshannagh28 · 09-12-2018 02:00PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

When you have an elected member of the Dail calling the Genomics scheme "The greatest bollix of a scheme that ever came out" what hope have you?

It can be hard to agree with wrangler but he is right on this , why are these crazy schemes being dreamt up by the dept . They create hassle and red tape for farmers in the guise of education and channel funds back to advisors and vets .Can the subsidy system be simplified so as to benefit those who need the subsidy ?

wrangler · 09-12-2018 02:05PM

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

It can be hard to agree with wrangler but he is right on this , why are these crazy schemes being dreamt up by the dept . They create hassle and red tape for farmers in the guise of education and channel funds back to advisors and vets .Can the subsidy system be simplified so as to benefit those who need the subsidy ?

Genomics should be a huge help, ad work like the dairying but the hassle of the scheme has clouded it. But of course the information has to be right.

Reggie. · 09-12-2018 04:01PM

Keepgrowing wrote: »

What’s their plan for the over supply of beef in Europe?
I attended their local meeting and lots of plans but viable solutions.
Any thing to do with genomics was rubbished yet it has made the Irish dairy herd one of the most fertile in the world.

I'm not following the group closely I'm just saying what I seen/heard on the night.

Robson99 · 09-12-2018 05:19PM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Good move Prop up the dairy farmer with his poor jersey and friesan bull calf and put more money in his pocket.
Sooner the better the calf reared realises the cost of calf and cops on making the dairy man up.

Its taking friesan Bull calves off the market. If they are killed it reduces numbers. Its not putting more money in his pocket. Its putting it in the suckler mans pocket indirectly
The problem is there us just too many cattle in the country and all the huffing and puffing by any organisation is a waste if time until this problem is addressed.
I'm just waiting for the outcry when the price of milk collapses

whelan2 · 09-12-2018 05:48PM

Robson99 wrote: »

Its taking friesan Bull calves off the market. If they are killed it reduces numbers. Its not putting more money in his pocket. Its putting it in the suckler mans pocket indirectly
The problem is there us just too many cattle in the country and all the huffing and puffing by any organisation is a waste if time until this problem is addressed.
I'm just waiting for the outcry when the price of milk collapses

I can't see there being any scheme to take fr bull calves off the market, the vegans and animal right people would have a field day

Bass Reeves · 09-12-2018 06:34PM

Robson99 wrote: »

Its taking friesan Bull calves off the market. If they are killed it reduces numbers. Its not putting more money in his pocket. Its putting it in the suckler mans pocket indirectly
The problem is there us just too many cattle in the country and all the huffing and puffing by any organisation is a waste if time until this problem is addressed.
I'm just waiting for the outcry when the price of milk collapses

It may or it may not. But any such scheme will have to will put a base price under friesian bull calves which in turn puts a base under all calves. As calves have to be 14 days to slaughter any bounty will need to be in the 50ish euro bracket. While this will take most JEX calves off the market it will put a base of a 100 euro on Friesian bulls minimum . This will distort the export trade leaving exporters unable to export calves. Lads that buy calves will just buy different calves.

However it is a pipe dream it will not happen due to the negative publicity such a scheme would have for the dairy industry. Lads that buy JEX calves are getting fewer in numbers a good few now go straight for slaughter. As well we have reached more or less peak dairy bred calves numders are reducing as dairy herd size is reaching opitmum levels. We are seeing more and more beef bred cattle from the dairy herds.

Then again may lads will want to slaughter these as well at 14 days so taht the beloved suckler can be saved.

Robson99 · 09-12-2018 06:53PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It may or it may not. But any such scheme will have to will put a base price under friesian bull calves which in turn puts a base under all calves. As calves have to be 14 days to slaughter any bounty will need to be in the 50ish euro bracket. While this will take most JEX calves off the market it will put a base of a 100 euro on Friesian bulls minimum . This will distort the export trade leaving exporters unable to export calves. Lads that buy calves will just buy different calves.

However it is a pipe dream it will not happen due to the negative publicity such a scheme would have for the dairy industry. Lads that buy JEX calves are getting fewer in numbers a good few now go straight for slaughter. As well we have reached more or less peak dairy bred calves numders are reducing as dairy herd size is reaching opitmum levels. We are seeing more and more beef bred cattle from the dairy herds.

Then again may lads will want to slaughter these as well at 14 days so taht the beloved suckler can be saved.

Well we cant have it everyway. We are over supplied with beef and not enough demand. As long as Dairy expansion continues or stays as it is then we will continue to be where we are for another 10 or 15 years till the next generation come along and plant the lot of it. Cause there is absolutely nothing going for beef farming to encourage the next generation to go at it and who would blame them

Dinzee Conlee · 09-12-2018 06:58PM

Robson99 wrote: »

Well we cant have it everyway. We are over supplied with beef and not enough demand. As long as Dairy expansion continues or stays as it is then we will continue to be where we are for another 10 or 15 years till the next generation come along and plant the lot of it. Cause there is absolutely nothing going for beef farming to encourage the next generation to go at it and who would blame them

But... why kill a by-product of a profitable milk industry, that will be produced regardless... to save a suckler industry that is mostly non-profitable...

Robson99 · 09-12-2018 07:00PM

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

But... why kill a by-product of a profitable milk industry, that will be produced regardless... to save a suckler industry that is mostly non-profitable...

Is dairy bred beef profitable ??

Dinzee Conlee · 09-12-2018 07:27PM

Robson99 wrote: »

Is dairy bred beef profitable ??

Surely keeping a cow to produce one calf, maybe once a year is less profitable?

patsy_mccabe · 09-12-2018 07:49PM

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Surely keeping a cow to produce one calf, maybe once a year is less profitable?

Depends who you ask. When beef is scarce, like a few years back, bull beef from the suckler herd can be very profitable. Just be prepared for the downturn when it comes.

Muckit · 09-12-2018 08:02PM

Double and triple suckling fr calves anyone?

TITANIUM. · 09-12-2018 08:14PM

For some reason plenty of posters here seem to think that all suckler farmers are all paupers and are constantly working at a loss. I make money at it, Granted not as much as some other sectors but profitable all the same. On a fragmented farm it works grand for me. I guess it just shows the ignorance of some people that don't know much about sucklers and believe everything they read.
Even in a year like this, if you had high quality stock they sold well enough. The trouble is if the downward trajectory continues unchecked then there could be trouble down the line. Do I believe I should be rewarded better for my work? Yes. But I enjoy the work and thank god I don't mind hard work.
There's to many leaches feeding off the system and if this was addressed I'd be a happier man.

Dinzee Conlee · 09-12-2018 08:41PM

TITANIUM. wrote: »

For some reason plenty of posters here seem to think that all suckler farmers are all paupers and are constantly working at a loss. I make money at it, Granted not as much as some other sectors but profitable all the same. On a fragmented farm it works grand for me. I guess it just shows the ignorance of some people that don't know much about sucklers and believe everything they read.
Even in a year like this, if you had high quality stock they sold well enough. The trouble is if the downward trajectory continues unchecked then there could be trouble down the line. Do I believe I should be rewarded better for my work? Yes. But I enjoy the work and thank god I don't mind hard work.
There's to many leaches feeding off the system and if this was addressed I'd be a happier man.

So why are lads up in arms about things?

Personally - I think all farming is a bit fcuked... people don’t want to spend money on food now...
We are producing top quality product, for a market that would be as happy with bottom dollar...

Farming is already at a place where there incentives / subsidies / carrots on sticks to just keep enough being produced... why would anyone pay or do more, when the reality is a large proportion will produce anyways, as they like the lifestyle / hardship...

Until we find something the market actually wants, then we are just bottom of the pile... the only light I see at the end of the tunnel is carbon credits, or something along that line... But I don’t see anyone doing anything here that would benefit the farmer, so it’s very possible that’s out too...

And that’s my highly optimistic view...

K9 · 09-12-2018 09:35PM

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

So why are lads up in arms about things?

Personally - I think all farming is a bit fcuked... people don’t want to spend money on food now...
We are producing top quality product, for a market that would be as happy with bottom dollar...

Farming is already at a place where there incentives / subsidies / carrots on sticks to just keep enough being produced... why would anyone pay or do more, when the reality is a large proportion will produce anyways, as they like the lifestyle / hardship...

Until we find something the market actually wants, then we are just bottom of the pile... the only light I see at the end of the tunnel is carbon credits, or something along that line... But I don’t see anyone doing anything here that would benefit the farmer, so it’s very possible that’s out too...

And that’s my highly optimistic view...

You have to remember tiger is a market for beef. Problem is the primary producer doesn’t get a fair share. It’s tge farmer that adds value to an animal, not the processors or retailers. How we wrestle back control I couldn’t tell you.

Bass Reeves · 09-12-2018 09:53PM

Robson99 wrote: »

Well we cant have it everyway. We are over supplied with beef and not enough demand. As long as Dairy expansion continues or stays as it is then we will continue to be where we are for another 10 or 15 years till the next generation come along and plant the lot of it. Cause there is absolutely nothing going for beef farming to encourage the next generation to go at it and who would blame them

There will not be much dairy expansion from now on unless tillage goes completely that is not a gaurantee to stay as is. However any part of an industry that needs to control/reduce another sector of taht industry is in trouble.

Robson99 wrote: »

Is dairy bred beef profitable ??

The short answer is yes. Friesian/Jex bull beef is profitable but is a highinput high management business. Most lads at it now only do the friesians as it is more profitable leaving a margin from 200-350/headin a normal year depending om who is to be believed.
Heifer calf to finish at 18-24 months leaves 350-500/head again depending on operator skill. Biggest issue is managing nitrates to achieve stocking levels.

Steer beef would be in or around the same margin but animal on farm a while longer. Bull beef u24 months slightly higher margin but animals gone sub 24 months but a real high input system and open to the vagaries of market forces

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Depends who you ask. When beef is scarce, like a few years back, bull beef from the suckler herd can be very profitable. Just be prepared for the downturn when it comes.

Bull beef of any sort at the time was profitable. Used to buy poorish coloured store bulls 320-370kgs during the late summers store over the winter and kill the following June/July off grass and a barley hulls mixture.

wrangler · 09-12-2018 10:03PM

Muckit wrote: »

Double and triple suckling fr calves anyone?

don't curse

bogman_bass · 09-12-2018 11:38PM

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

It can be hard to agree with wrangler but he is right on this , why are these crazy schemes being dreamt up by the dept . They create hassle and red tape for farmers in the guise of education and channel funds back to advisors and vets .Can the subsidy system be simplified so as to benefit those who need the subsidy ?

Lads the days of a coupled payment are long gone.
The genius in the Dept. That managed to twist BDGP as an environmental scheme needs a bloody medal as far as i’m Concerned.

The moaning about it reminds me a lot like brexiteers in the Tory party that think if they reject Threasa Mays deal that there is a better one around the corner.

Same with BDGP if you get rid of it it isn’t going to be replaced by a no strings attached version.

K9 · 10-12-2018 09:11AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There will not be much dairy expansion from now on unless tillage goes completely that is not a gaurantee to stay as is. However any part of an industry that needs to control/reduce another sector of taht industry is in trouble.

The short answer is yes. Friesian/Jex bull beef is profitable but is a highinput high management business. Most lads at it now only do the friesians as it is more profitable leaving a margin from 200-350/headin a normal year depending om who is to be believed.
Heifer calf to finish at 18-24 months leaves 350-500/head again depending on operator skill. Biggest issue is managing nitrates to achieve stocking levels.

At current prices dairy bred heifer would make around €1000 slaughtered. Not a chance that would leave 350-500 head. You could knock off a zero

CloughCasey1 · 10-12-2018 09:44AM

The boss lady brought home a copy of the IFJ on Thursday. I only got a chance to look at it last night. Id say its the first time it has been got all year. Has there been much coverage of the beef plan set up over the last number of weeks? There wasnt one mention of it on last weeks edition. Why the lack of promotion i wonder??

wrangler · 10-12-2018 10:01AM

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

The boss lady brought home a copy of the IFJ on Thursday. I only got a chance to look at it last night. Id say its the first time it has been got all year. Has there been much coverage of the beef plan set up over the last number of weeks? There wasnt one mention of it on last weeks edition. Why the lack of promotion i wonder??

They don't promote ICSA either,
BPM got front page news at the start, but the way it has evolved won't help it to get into the media that's part of the Farm Centre/Trust.
That's my own opinion as is all I've said here on this thread

Dickie10 · 10-12-2018 10:27AM

were beef finishers traditionally, had a few cows the last 8 or 9 years only round 18-20 but got rid of the bull this year and cows are being fattened now for killing in spring. the only problem is gathering weanling heifers can be tough now, and will get more tough in next few years as more suckler men quit calving cows. if things did get scarce , i would consider going back suckler to finish all stock

moll3 · 10-12-2018 10:49AM

i can finish hefiers here at 24 months but they leave about 400 yoyos thats after two years of minding them from what i see is we are paying too much for the dairy calf aa/hd should not be costing no more than 150 but the fellas around the ring wont listen

patsy_mccabe · 10-12-2018 11:16AM

moll3 wrote: »

i can finish hefiers here at 24 months but they leave about 400 yoyos thats after two years of minding them from what i see is we are paying too much for the dairy calf aa/hd should not be costing more than 150 but the fellas around the ring wont listen

I think a lot of farmers the last few years got into financial trouble and rather than borrow to re-stock, they downsized at it were. They went out and bought the cheapest cattle to stock the farm - the dairy calves. This has led to an over value in their pricing. Will be interesting to see what happens next spring.

Willfarman · 10-12-2018 11:26AM

moll3 wrote: »

i can finish hefiers here at 24 months but they leave about 400 yoyos thats after two years of minding them from what i see is we are paying too much for the dairy calf aa/hd should not be costing more than 150 but the fellas around the ring wont listen

That’s never going to change. You are spot on and for that they’d need to be heathy 2 week old square growthy types to have any chance of a margin.

Bass Reeves · 10-12-2018 12:21PM

K9 wrote: »

At current prices dairy bred heifer would make around €1000 slaughtered. Not a chance that would leave 350-500 head. You could knock off a zero

A lot depends on you system. I gave rough estimates on average prices over the last 3-4 years. Last year was a tough year as well neighbour got 4/kg (no deductions or transport) last year. His AA heifers killed 262 kgs on average netting 1050. Now he was a dairy farmer but he did the costs with me one night over a pint off my head these were the approximate costs

Calf- weaning 130 euro
weaning to housing 80 euro
First winter 100 euro
Second summer 80 euro

They were out until late October and got 2kgs for September until housing it cost 25 euro
They were housed for about 6-7 weeks before slaughter 45 days by @ a cost of 1.6/day his silage was very good quality and they only got 3kgs as he was watching in case they became too fat too fast cost 72 euro.

Total cost was 487 give the calf a value of 100 euro dropped from the cow and allow 50 for miscellanous such as vet, medecine, mortality etc gives a total cost of 637. His cost would be slightly lower as he uses his own crimped grain for feeding but we costed it off my costs his margin was 410/heifer at 21 months. Normally he would keep until after Christmass but was worried about silage due to cows being fed it since mid September of 2017.

Keepgrowing · 10-12-2018 01:40PM

whelan2 wrote: »

I can't see there being any scheme to take fr bull calves off the market, the vegans and animal right people would have a field day

It would be wrong to have a calf slaughter scheme. We have a social licence to farm and that’s one sure way of alienating the consumer

alps · 10-12-2018 01:42PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A lot depends on you system. I gave rough estimates on average prices over the last 3-4 years. Last year was a tough year as well neighbour got 4/kg (no deductions or transport) last year. His AA heifers killed 262 kgs on average netting 1050. Now he was a dairy farmer but he did the costs with me one night over a pint off my head these were the approximate costs

Calf- weaning 130 euro
weaning to housing 80 euro
First winter 100 euro
Second summer 80 euro

They were out until late October and got 2kgs for September until housing it cost 25 euro
They were housed for about 6-7 weeks before slaughter 45 days by @ a cost of 1.6/day his silage was very good quality and they only got 3kgs as he was watching in case they became too fat too fast cost 72 euro.

Total cost was 487 give the calf a value of 100 euro dropped from the cow and allow 50 for miscellanous such as vet, medecine, mortality etc gives a total cost of 637. His cost would be slightly lower as he uses his own crimped grain for feeding but we costed it off my costs his margin was 410/heifer at 21 months. Normally he would keep until after Christmass but was worried about silage due to cows being fed it since mid September of 2017.

From a dairy perspective here Bass, your figures are very much in line with our heifer rearing costs except when we add in fixed costs like finance, electricity, depreciation, insurance, phone, car, advisory, accountancy, and all the other similar costs, they added another 600 to the total.

If you consider you would incur that other cost anyway, then you may say it's a worthwhile exercise, but at the end of the day, particularly on a beef farm all of these items weigh heavily on the bottom line at the end of he day.

Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

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