Are you a Globalist or a Nationalist?

DS86DS · 05-12-2018 07:28AM #1

And by that I mean that in the full sense of the word. Are you proud of your country and its customs, culture and history going back thousands of years?

You are not only a nationalist and patriot in your own country. You also look at other countries, say France or Hungary and you not only appreciate their cultures. You also accept that these are countries in their own right. When you visit them, you respect them and their culture and history. You wish them to make decisions that benefit their people.

When you visit France or Hungary you appreciate that you are in another part of the world..... you respect that you are a visitor on holidays and do as Romans do when in Rome.

You also understand why Americans might vote for Trump.....it's an expression of nationalism on the behalf of Americans. You may not agree with it, but as a nationalist in your own country........ you respect that other people in other countries, be it in America, France and Hungary......or Bhutan, it doesn't matter.....have a desire for their own nation.

You are a nationalist yourself, and are accepting of nationalism in other people and other countries and accept it is a force of evolution.

Or are you a Globalist? Do you believe that institutions such as the EU and UN are the supreme moral force in the world? Do you believe that we should all strive to be "citizens of the world"?

Do you believe borders are antiquated and that we should be striving for a One World entity where borders have ceased to exist?

Peregrinus · 05-12-2018 07:37AM

You do realise that there is no contradiction between the two positions which you offer here, don't you?

It's perfectly possible to be proud of your nation's culture, history, achievements etc and to acknowledge that other nations may justifiably feel a similar pride, and also to believe that we are all citizens of the world and that policies and institutions which promote co-operation, collaboration and collective action among nations are good and necessary for our shared welfare.

So, in the terms that you define them, I don't see that anybody has to choose between being a nationalist and being a globalist. It's entirely possible to be both. It's not difficulto to construct an argument that we all ought to be both.

theteal · 05-12-2018 07:43AM

Feck sake, somebody couldn’t sleep.

At this hour of the morning questions should be limited to the likes of, “do you drink coffee?”, “do you pee in the shower?”, “do you drink coffee in the shower?”, “have you ever accidentally sharted?” and so forth....

05-12-2018 07:44AM

It's not possible to be both.

Globalism, which has as its end the eradication of the nation state, is inherently hostile to nationalism. And no, we are not all citizens of the world. There is no world citizenship.

mickuhaha · 05-12-2018 07:51AM

Globalization, at its most basic, means simply the long-term, secular trend towards ever-greater interpenetration and interdependence of the world's economies. And this is indeed inevitable.

Peregrinus · 05-12-2018 07:53AM

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

It's not possible to be both.

Globalism, which has as its end the eradication of the nation state, is inherently hostile to nationalism. And no, we are not all citizens of the world. There is no world citizenship.

You're defining globalism differently from DS86DS; he says nothing about the eradiction of nation-states. You're also defining nationalism differently, I think; for you, nationalism requires a political insttitution, the nation-state, whereas for him (her?), nationalism ("in the full sense of the word") is a matter of customs, culture and history, all of which exist before, and can exist without, a state.

I think you and he need to agree terms, or this discussion is going to get very confusing.

malinheader · 05-12-2018 08:12AM

My view is s nationalist is someone who is proud of their country customs and traditions. A globalist is someone who goes to another country and expects that country to change their customs and traditions to accommodate them. As another poster has said when in Rome.

Alf Veedersane · 05-12-2018 08:13AM

DS86DS wrote: »

When you visit France or Hungary you appreciate that you are in another part of the world..... you respect that you are a visitor on holidays and do as Romans do when in Rome.

If you're in France or Hungary, why would you do as Romans do in Rome?

Peregrinus · 05-12-2018 08:20AM

malinheader wrote: »

My view is s nationalist is someone who is proud of their country customs and traditions. A globalist is someone who goes to another country and expects that country to change their customs and traditions to accommodate them.

That's not a globalist; that's a Brexiter.

malinheader · 05-12-2018 08:27AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's not a globalist; that's a Brexiter.

How do you come to that conclusion.

Peregrinus · 05-12-2018 08:31AM

malinheader wrote: »

How do you come to that conclusion.

It's a jibe; Brexiters have spent the last two years demanding that the EU should alter its rules and concepts so as to allow the UK to "cherry pick" the aspects of EU membership that it wants, and complaining that in refusing to do so the EU is "bullying" and "punishing" the UK.

suicide_circus · 05-12-2018 08:32AM

the social welfare safety net only works in the context of nation states in which there are a finite number of citizens who contribute and draw down. a nation state is defined in part by geographical borders.

DS86DS · 05-12-2018 08:36AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you're in France or Hungary, why would you do as Romans do in Rome?

Are you serious?

Peregrinus · 05-12-2018 08:38AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

the social welfare safety net only works in the context of nation states in which there are a finite number of citizens who contribute and draw down

The social welfare safety net only works if there are enougyh contributors into the system to fund the payment of the benefits out of it. Which is why immigration of working age people is often necessary to ensure that there will be enough contributors into the system to pay the benefits of the rapidly-growing cohort of elderly claimants from the system.

The social welfare safety net doesn't care about your culture or your language or your ethnic background or your pride in the achievements of your people; just about your contributions.

suicide_circus wrote: »

. . . a nation state is defined in part by geographical borders.

All states are defined by geographical borders. What's your point?

Alf Veedersane · 05-12-2018 08:40AM

DS86DS wrote: »

Are you serious?

Are you?

What's 'diversity', Ron?

suicide_circus · 05-12-2018 08:43AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

The social welfare safety net only works if there are enougyh contributors into the system to fund the payment of the benefits out of it. Which is why immigration of working age people is often necessary to ensure that there will be enough contributors into the system to pay the benefits of the rapidly-growing cohort of elderly claimants from the system.

The social welfare safety net doesn't care about your culture or your language or your ethnic background or your pride in the achievements of your people; just about your contributions.

All states are defined by geographical borders. What's your point?

I never said immigrants are not needed. just that "a world without borders" cannot provide the kind of social welfare safety net that most Europeans (and others) currently enjoy.

Raheem Euro · 05-12-2018 08:43AM

DS86DS wrote: »

And by that I mean that in the full sense of the word. Are you proud of your country and its customs, culture and history going back thousands of years?

You are not only a nationalist and patriot in your own country. You also look at other countries, say France or Hungary and you not only appreciate their cultures. You also accept that these are countries in their own right. When you visit them, you respect them and their culture and history. You wish them to make decisions that benefit their people.

When you visit France or Hungary you appreciate that you are in another part of the world..... you respect that you are a visitor on holidays and do as Romans do when in Rome.

You also understand why Americans might vote for Trump.....it's an expression of nationalism on the behalf of Americans. You may not agree with it, but as a nationalist in your own country........ you respect that other people in other countries, be it in America, France and Hungary......or Bhutan, it doesn't matter.....have a desire for their own nation.

You are a nationalist yourself, and are accepting of nationalism in other people and other countries and accept it is a force of evolution.

Or are you a Globalist? Do you believe that institutions such as the EU and UN are the supreme moral force in the world? Do you believe that we should all strive to be "citizens of the world"?

Do you believe borders are antiquated and that we should be striving for a One World entity where borders have ceased to exist?

Yes.

quad_red · 05-12-2018 08:48AM

malinheader wrote: »

My view is s nationalist is someone who is proud of their country customs and traditions. A globalist is someone who goes to another country and expects that country to change their customs and traditions to accommodate them. As another poster has said when in Rome.

That’s just laziness and ignorance (to go to another country and expect them to change to accommodate you).

In the end though we need Supra national cooperation and coordination. From combating existential threats like climate change and weapons of mass destruction to facilitating international trade (which makes us better off) to scientific collaborations etc.

s7ryf3925pivug · 05-12-2018 08:51AM

Global issues require global thinking and global institutions.

Peregrinus · 05-12-2018 08:54AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

I never said immigrants are not needed. just that "a world without borders" cannot provide the kind of social welfare safety net that most Europeans (and others) currently enjoy.

Well, in theory it could. Social welfare systems are currently defined geographically, but it doesn't have to be so. There's no reason why you couldn't organise social welfare systems around other affinities, including ethnicity or national identity.

But in practice this is a red herring. Not everybody who rejects the labe of "nationalist" is calling for a world without borders. There are plently of historic and current examples of states which are not nation-states - which are multinational or plurinational states - but which nevertheless have borders.

engiweirdo · 05-12-2018 08:57AM

I am a patriot, not a nationalist. In that I vehemently question every decision or direction involved in my country in the hope of it one day becoming a state we could be truly proud of. Blind nationalism is pure idiocy imo. Being proud of a birth accident is pretty dumb in fairness.

That being said Globalism I find reprehensible. Humans are tied together by common culture, language, environment, upbringing and values and accident or not, those peoples with long history of inhabiting a particular are inherently more entitled to residence there than those from vastly different cultures and environments. Essentially we are where we are based on the fruits of previous generations efforts and Labour mostly, our ancestors, hence it is up to the descendants how much of these benefits should be shared or not with other non descendants.

DS86DS · 05-12-2018 09:03AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Are you?

What's 'diversity', Ron?

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

FTA69 · 05-12-2018 09:05AM

Anti-globalisation, pro-internationalism.

The fact you’re against global neo-liberal capitalism doesn’t mean you’re some chauvinistic jingoist who hates foreigners. The economic system that we have is unsutainable, both for society and the environment.

RobbingBandit · 05-12-2018 09:07AM

I am a xenophobic personalist hate everything and everyone most of all myself.

Chris_Heilong · 05-12-2018 09:07AM

Well I am not a globalist, shudder to even think about. I like having a culture, a country, a nationality, a history and a place from where I can say I came from, I also dont mind foreign people who want to come and share in those things with me on my terms and my values. I agree with multi racial society but not multiculturalism, a little sprinkle here and there(food, music and the odd celebration) is fine but respect the native culture and try to adapt to it as much as possible, parallel cultures within a country only push division/conflict.

Alf Veedersane · 05-12-2018 09:57AM

DS86DS wrote: »

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

"When in Hungary, do as the Hungarians do"

Franz Von Peppercorn · 05-12-2018 10:01AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

The social welfare safety net doesn't care about your culture or your language or your ethnic background or your pride in the achievements of your people; just about your contributions.

?

It doesn’t really care about contributions, now does it? You get 6 months after you are fired (but not leave) a job which isn’t means tested. There’s a contributory pension which can often be less than than a non contributory pension.

All states are defined by geographical borders. What's your point?

Nation states also encompass a nation. That is a pre-existing people or ethnic group.

Mad_maxx · 05-12-2018 10:03AM

DS86DS wrote: »

And by that I mean that in the full sense of the word. Are you proud of your country and its customs, culture and history going back thousands of years?

You are not only a nationalist and patriot in your own country. You also look at other countries, say France or Hungary and you not only appreciate their cultures. You also accept that these are countries in their own right. When you visit them, you respect them and their culture and history. You wish them to make decisions that benefit their people.

When you visit France or Hungary you appreciate that you are in another part of the world..... you respect that you are a visitor on holidays and do as Romans do when in Rome.

You also understand why Americans might vote for Trump.....it's an expression of nationalism on the behalf of Americans. You may not agree with it, but as a nationalist in your own country........ you respect that other people in other countries, be it in America, France and Hungary......or Bhutan, it doesn't matter.....have a desire for their own nation.

You are a nationalist yourself, and are accepting of nationalism in other people and other countries and accept it is a force of evolution.

Or are you a Globalist? Do you believe that institutions such as the EU and UN are the supreme moral force in the world? Do you believe that we should all strive to be "citizens of the world"?

Do you believe borders are antiquated and that we should be striving for a One World entity where borders have ceased to exist?

"globalist" is a term with ultra capitalist connotations, what your talking about is "internationalist"

Peregrinus · 05-12-2018 10:04AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

?

It doesn’t really care about contributions, now does it?

Certainly it does. Social security systems are nearly all pay-as-you-go sytems; today's benefits to claimants are funded by contributions (and taxes) paid by today's workers. The system doesn't need to get in contributions to fund the payment of benefits promised now but due to be paid decades later; it needs to get in contributions to pay benefits promised decades ago and due to be paid today.

Contributions are everything in a social welfare system.

Robert McGrath · 05-12-2018 10:24AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

a system based on needing more and more people paying for the old, who themselves get old, is a ponzi scheme.

Welcome to the concept of the pension timebomb

seamus · 05-12-2018 10:26AM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

"globalist" is a term with ultra capitalist connotations, what your talking about is "internationalist"

Or "humanist".

Of course if the OP is an absolutist and cannot see the world in any other terms but "A or B", then trying to explain this seems folly.

Are you a Globalist or a Nationalist?

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