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Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

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    #362
    engiweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭engiweirdo


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    engiweirdo wrote: »
    Ford was a great engineer and capitalist but saw the value of better pay and less working hours for his employees.
    Ford was a truly horrible person. The better wages and less hours were due to the incredible turnover of workers because of horrendous working conditions.

    Well thats generally how it's supposed to work, unattractive employers must take extra measures to attract workers.

    It doesnt work anymore though, often the marquee companies have exceptional pay but at the marked cost of any work/life balance. And they set the tone for employment conditions elsewhere.


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    #363
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    I work in public sector for 10+ years

    I got an incremental pay rise during the summer, which means I'm actually €20 a week worse off.
    Don't get bonuses
    No healthcare package
    We pay for our social parties and meals
    I spend my own money on resources to actually do the job everyday

    Friend of mine in IT for 5 years
    Has negotiated pay rises to stay with company only to switch to other company who pays more and shorter hours
    Bonus and loyalty scheme in company
    Subsidised health insurance
    Social events paid for by company - including regular free bar.
    Given laptop and other equipment to work from home one day a week

    Both sectors have their advantages


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    #364
    BBFAN
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭BBFAN


    nice_guy80 wrote:
    Both sectors have their advantages


    Yet you didn't list any advantages to the public sector?

    This is what bugs me. For everyone who says "join the public sector if it's so great" I put the opposite question "why not leave if it's so crap?".

    I think the answer would be telling.


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    #365
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    I work in public sector for 10+ years

    I got an incremental pay rise during the summer, which means I'm actually €20 a week worse off.
    Don't get bonuses
    No healthcare package
    We pay for our social parties and meals
    I spend my own money on resources to actually do the job everyday

    Friend of mine in IT for 5 years
    Has negotiated pay rises to stay with company only to switch to other company who pays more and shorter hours
    Bonus and loyalty scheme in company
    Subsidised health insurance
    Social events paid for by company - including regular free bar.
    Given laptop and other equipment to work from home one day a week

    Both sectors have their advantages

    My partner is a Civil servant, not public, but that also is seen as a total gravy train while it's not really anymore.

    The upside is the really liberal Flexi clock, which is a huge benefit, especially as a commuter.
    But as you said: no bonuses unless you travel with overnight stays, you get okay-ish compensation.
    No healthcare package and all their functions are paid by employees.
    The job security is good though.
    Also promotions aren't as common as people might think. There were almost no opportunities for the better part of a decade, there were massive pay cuts and now everyone jumps at internal positions. A lot of competitions are now open too. So you don't walk in and get promoted to a higher rank within 2 or 3 years.

    There's a big trend in the CS though, many people want to be transferred to more remote locations and the waiting lists are quite full. The salary outside of the capital gets you quite far if you're living close to your office. Many bite the bullet, work in Dublin with long commutes for a few years and hope for a transfer.


    When it comes to the whole debate, it's a bug bear that it's always about teachers. They're not particularly a prime example and there are many more, like nurses or midwives that work crazy hours for quite sh1tty pay and often can't afford to live anywhere close to their work, which is quite essential.
    Once you're entering a field that has anything to do with caring, publicly or privately, you're certainly not doing it for the pay because that's never great. Yet they're very essential for society.


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    #366
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    BBFAN wrote: »
    Yet you didn't list any advantages to the public sector?

    This is what bugs me. For everyone who says "join the public sector if it's so great" I put the opposite question "why not leave if it's so crap?".

    I think the answer would be telling.

    I've left. And I'm much better off. And I'm now charging my former PS employer nearly triple my previous hourly rate to do what I used to do because they can't find people to do the job. If they want me to continue doing it after Christmas I'll be increasing my charge again.


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    #367
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Jackson Tasty Bearer wrote: »
    I've left. And I'm much better off. And I'm now charging my former PS employer nearly triple my previous hourly rate to do what I used to do because they can't find people to do the job. If they want me to continue doing it after Christmas I'll be increasing my charge again.


    This is something that used to drive me bonkers.


    Working for a consultancy company been hired by the PS to do work that they had a team of people to do but for some reason they were not capable of it.


    So they're paying that team and then paying a consultancy company 3/4 times that amount for them to do it.


    The waste is all over it and is hard to take as a "tax payer" and there's no need to point out the PS lads pay tax too.


    But they seem to be more than happy for someone else to come in and do their job for them.


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    #368
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    limnam wrote: »
    This is something that used to drive me bonkers.


    Working for a consultancy company been hired by the PS to do work that they had a team of people to do but for some reason they were not capable of it.


    So they're paying that team and then paying a consultancy company 3/4 times that amount for them to do it.


    The waste is all over it and is hard to take as a "tax payer" and there's no need to point out the PS lads pay tax too.


    But they seem to be more than happy for someone else to come in and do their job for them.

    three to four times the pay you say.

    jesus thats very interesting.


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    #369
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    limnam wrote: »
    This is something that used to drive me bonkers.


    Working for a consultancy company been hired by the PS to do work that they had a team of people to do but for some reason they were not capable of it.


    So they're paying that team and then paying a consultancy company 3/4 times that amount for them to do it.


    The waste is all over it and is hard to take as a "tax payer" and there's no need to point out the PS lads pay tax too.


    But they seem to be more than happy for someone else to come in and do their job for them.

    No there's nobody else employed to do the job. No applicants for the job when advertised.


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    #370
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Jackson Tasty Bearer wrote: »
    No there's nobody else employed to do the job. No applicants for the job when advertised.


    I understand in your case, it just reminded me of the particular situation.


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    #371
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    BBFAN wrote: »
    nice_guy80 wrote:
    Both sectors have their advantages


    Yet you didn't list any advantages to the public sector?

    This is what bugs me. For everyone who says "join the public sector if it's so great" I put the opposite question "why not leave if it's so crap?".

    I think the answer would be telling.
    Job security
    Pension
    Regular hours
    Good holidays

    Then again, the friend in IT isn't going to be sacked in the morning and his skill set means he can change jobs for better pay and better conditions


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    #372
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    three to four times the pay you say.

    jesus thats very interesting.


    No I said they pay the consultancy company 3/4 times the amount it would cost to pay the staff you actually hired to do the same job.


    Not that the actual consultant gets paid 3/4 times more.



    You appreciate it costs a lot more to get in a qualified person to do something you can't do temporarily



    right?


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    #373
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Job security


    Then again, the friend in IT isn't going to be sacked in the morning and his skill set means he can change jobs for better pay and better conditions


    He could probably outsourced in the blink of an eye.


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    #374
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    limnam wrote: »
    This is something that used to drive me bonkers.

    Working for a consultancy company been hired by the PS to do work that they had a team of people to do but for some reason they were not capable of it.

    So they're paying that team and then paying a consultancy company 3/4 times that amount for them to do it.

    The waste is all over it and is hard to take as a "tax payer" and there's no need to point out the PS lads pay tax too.

    But they seem to be more than happy for someone else to come in and do their job for them.

    Regardless of Public or Private

    You can't win with this. If they do it themselves people say they should outsource it, outsource it and people say its too expensive.

    Pay the wages to attract the staff you need, and the wages are too high. Drop the wages and you attract no one, so you out source it.

    Bringing in consultants to help and do a skills transfer, generally means deadlines get squeezed, there's no time for knowledge transfer. Project gets finished, staff still have't been trained up. In fact they now have a solution that they do not have the skills to manage.

    See this so often everywhere. Maybe thats just life.


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    #375
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    Well thats generally how it's supposed to work, unattractive employers must take extra measures to attract workers.
    He had to. He made it unattractive in the first place. I can't give the guy much credit for taking obvious actions that ultimately befitted himself.


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    #376
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    political analyst wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/where-have-all-our-young-teachers-gone-36666467.html

    Due to the high rents in Dublin and other cities, why doesn't the government pay special allowances so that public-sector workers can afford to live in those place in order to fill vacancies for especially important jobs in those areas? Isn't that what already happens in Britain?

    Teaching is a clear example of a profession in which job vacancies in cities cannot be filled because of high rents.

    Lot of professions cannot be filled because of high rents. Its not unique to teaching or the Public sector.

    This has to be one of the least political astute assessments ever in after hours.

    Its a consequence of decades unbalanced regional policies. Everyone moving to large one city in the country. Everyone leaving the countryside.


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    #377
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Well despite what it says in the constitution, parents I observe arent teaching their kids. The kid does a lame attempt at home work and the parent fixes it before class. Therefore the kid does n't make a mistake, does feel shame for a poor effort. The kid is 10 now. Very soon at 13 the childs learning will eclipse his mothers knowledge. She cannot do Trig, chemistry, functions of the body or anything more than basic bookkeeping. Then the tales will be told.

    We have created a society there is no longer the time to spend with kids.

    So expect it to get worse.


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    #378
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Oft cited here as elsewhere, teachers are an interesting one, as their profile and esteem has decreased over the last 50 years. It is what drives much of the trade union militant protectionism, as they attempt to deny the reality. When Ireland was an economically backwards, education, and jobs for educated people were very limited. Teaching was a high profile one that was relatively well paid and a benchmark for a standard of education, income, and residence. As that has eroded as Ireland has developed industry and services to the standard of modern top economies, the relative standing of teachers has decreased. That they are outbid in the competition for scarce prime location housing is to be expected. And nothing particularly wrong with that. Times changes.
    A similar effect applies to the general lower classes of civil servant as well.


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    #379
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    It's an oxymoron though

    Parents want better and more sophisticated education for their children, but there is less respect for teachers in terms of supporting the work done in class and teaching them manners and respect


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    #380
    yabadabado
    Registered Users Posts: 16,520 ✭✭✭✭yabadabado


    Why don't the government move some PS jobs out of the city centre that don't need to be there .There must be dozens of PS offices that could be moved to towns outside of the greater Dublin area.
    They made a balls of that decentralisation scheme a few years back mostly trying to keep too many vested interests happy but done properly would be of benefit.


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    #381
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Which is tiny. And nothing said about the lucrative pensions of the politicians who were involved in all the mess.
    "tiny" What world are you living in?


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    #382
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    fxotoole wrote: »
    In the *rsehole of Kerry, where there’s no jobs, infrastructure, or services, probably

    Have you been to Kerry?

    Try and get a hotel room/accommodation in Killarney Kenmare Dingle sometime.
    The poor people of rural Ireland certainly doesnt apply to Kerry even though the Healys Rae like to portray that image


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    #383
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,127 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Edgware wrote: »
    "tiny" What world are you living in?

    It's called reality. The amount spent on "dole scroungers" is tiny.


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    #384
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    limnam wrote: »
    No I said they pay the consultancy company 3/4 times the amount it would cost to pay the staff you actually hired to do the same job.


    Not that the actual consultant gets paid 3/4 times more.




    You appreciate it costs a lot more to get in a qualified person to do something you can't do temporarily



    right?



    thats fair, i had spotted it but lazy zing bias made me reach for the button. mea culpa.



    we could get into the pros and cons of the bias towards consultancy expertise in the PS but tbh this thread is derailed enough

    edit: beauf has a good concise crack at the headline posts above, actually


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    #385
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    If 2/3 hours a day is more tiring that a full days work, then you aren't cut out for the job.

    That's not even kind of what I said, good man.


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    #386
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Lincoln Shapely Stratosphere wrote:
    The classroom and teaching a subject is only part of the work, and the only bit a lot appear to think they do.

    If only we just had to teach and all the other elements we have had to take on board were actually done by people qualified in their area.


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    #387
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »
    That's not even kind of what I said, good man.
    And I didn't even say that you did. But do try keeping up, good man.


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    #388
    Naos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,728 ✭✭✭Naos


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    I work in public sector for 10+ years

    I got an incremental pay rise during the summer, which means I'm actually €20 a week worse off.

    How are you worse off after a raise?


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    #389
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Naos wrote: »
    How are you worse off after a raise?
    Rent increase, inflation, etc....
    That's what I'm guessing.


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    #390
    Naos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,728 ✭✭✭Naos


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    Rent increase, inflation, etc....
    That's what I'm guessing.

    Well, not really. Rent increase and inflation would be there regardless of him getting a raise.

    I'd really love to know how he is worse off.


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    #391
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Naos wrote: »
    Well, not really. Rent increase and inflation would be there regardless of him getting a raise.

    I'd really love to know how he is worse off.
    If he got a raise of €50 a week, but rent went up by €30, then it's a loss of €20 in their situation.
    Again, guessing. They'd have to explain it.


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