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Free Travel Pass Holders on peak time public transport

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Comments

  • #332
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Did you actually read the part of my post which you quoted? It appears not. I'm nowhere near qualifying because the income limit for me is a third of what it is for them.

    I did read it, perhaps you didn't consider my response.

    it is not just the income limit to see if you qualify when under 66

    they also take into consideration rent/mortgage, childcare, insurance and other costs, even public transport and parking costs

    the limit is also based on salary after tax not gross.


  • #333
    witchgirl26
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Well of course they impact on the inheritance. You can't have your cake and eat it.

    Right but they don't have to deal with that if it's after they die so why aren't there more doing it? Maybe because it's not as straightforward as you seem to think at all.


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Almost all working individuals have rent/mortgage to pay though, and many have kids to provide for, all while paying more tax and getting only a pittance of child benefit from the state.

    Yes we do. But then so did those OAP's before they became OAP's. You do know that OAP's don't just appear in the world, the workers become them when they reach a certain age.


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Yes we keep being told that :rolleyes: actually the 80s was not that difficult except for those who lost their jobs. Houses were cheap, the ratio of mortgates (and rents) to income was less than it is now even given the higher interest rates.

    The 80's wasn't that difficult. Did you completely ignore the part where mortgage interest rates were over 10% and tax was way more than now. Plus wages were lower comparatively, jobs weren't that plentiful, there was mass emigration and yes houses were cheaper but that is in comparison to now and not in comparison to incomes at the time.


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    All I can say to that is :rolleyes:

    We're not. 20% lower tax and 40% higher rate is not being taxed through the hoop. Tax rates at increments between 25% and 65% is being taxed through the hoop. Look I'm not a fan of being taxed and handing over so much but at the same time, I recognise it for what it is.


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Mortgage interest is not tax. High interest rates were the downside of having a depreciating pound (which was good for exporters, but not good for workers)

    Yes the headline rate was 65% but a family got full double tax allowances even if only one of them was working. The state was absolutely on the verge of bankruptcy in the 80s (thanks to, guess who, FF) so of course taxes were high. The headline rate of tax looks a lot lower now but there are lots of other taxes like USC which didn't exist then. Property tax, bin charges which you didn't have to pay in the 80s.

    Mortgage interest isn't tax but it does impact hugely on your disposable income. How would you fair on your wage with a 58% tax rate and the mortgage interest rate just even doubling what it is now? Not great I'd gather. The 80's had pretty much triple what we're paying.

    You do know the same happens now - if only one is working, they can get the other partners tax credits. So not much difference there. USC didn't exist then but it doesn't bring us near the rates of the 80's at all. Property tax was around in the 80's actually and up until the mid-90's but it was calculated differently and a lot of people had to pay bin charges if they didn't live in big cities. In fact I've family who had no sympathy for us when bin charges were brought in in Dublin as they had been paying them for decades before.


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    God help me is right, the current generation of pensioners have rode this country dry and no generation following will get what they have now.

    Lol would you get over yourself! They have not. The majority are just the same as we are now - they were working away trying to do the best for themselves and their families. Do you hold your own parents responsible or just other people's out of interest?

    What has wrecked this country was the sheer greed and me fein-ism that happened during the Celtic Tiger and for the most part the people responsible for that are the ones in their 40's and 50's now who got massive mortgages they could barely afford at the time and 100% mortgages.


  • #334
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    One thing this OAP learned over the years was to know a troll when I see one

    Instead of throwing accusations of trolling around, perhaps you would address this - if you can?
    The income limit for over-70s is so high that an over-70s couple with more income than me are "poor" enough to qualify. Yet, with less income, I have to provide for a family of four, pay a mortgage, school "voluntary contributions", GP fees etc etc all while being taxed at the higher rate.

    Clearly a couple with that amount of money and no mortgage or rent to pay and no kids to provide for are actually quite well off.

    No wonder people are having fewer kids. You know, the taxpayers of the future needed to pay for the pensioners of the future. Most people with kids are just about getting by and many have little or nothing in the way of disposable income. Yet they get almost nothing from the state and have to pay for things like school "voluntary" contributions because the state doesn't bother to fund schools enough.

    We should cut back on the benefits we provide to those pensioners which are, by any standard, quite well off. Families need the help more.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #335
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    witchgirl26 wrote: »
    Right but they don't have to deal with that if it's after they die so why aren't there more doing it?

    Many possible reasons - ignorance, backlash from disinherited relatives, or maybe they don't actually need the money because they're doing quite well?
    The 80's wasn't that difficult. Did you completely ignore the part where mortgage interest rates were over 10% and tax was way more than now.

    No it's in the part of my post you quoted. Mortgage interest rates were high, but the mortgages themselves were much smaller.

    The ratio of house prices and rents to incomes today is way out of whack and higher than it's ever been. I.E. housing is less affordable today.
    You do know the same happens now - if only one is working, they can get the other partners tax credits.

    Only part of it. It used to be that the spouse who was working got double the allowances and bands of a single person.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #336
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Seen a few of them alright, all elderly people who should be allowed to travel where and when they want.

    It is worth noting,that of the 902,000 FTP holders,less than 50% are of Pensionable Age,which leaves c.450,000 who are from the various other classifications now entitled to membership of the FT Scheme.

    The format of the 2017 statistical bulletin has been altered somewhat to make it more difficult to break down the categories of DSP Entitlement carrying the FTP but the 2016 figures are illuminating it themselves....

    https://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/DEASP_Annual_Statistics_Report_2016.pdf

    Table G7 on Page 67 reveals that State Contributory Pension Recipients account for 328,962 FTP Holders.
    Non Contributory Pension 94,969 FTP holders.
    Invalidity Pension 54,220 FTP Holders
    Disability Allowance,124,242 FTP Holders.
    With perhaps the most interesting group,now referred to as having "No Active Pension" consisting of 100,588 FTP holders.
    Oh and,as ever there are the "Others" consisting of 9,099 FTP Holders.

    Irrespective of the usage level of the individual FTS Passes,the bare numbers do prove the fact that the Free Travel Scheme can no longer be accurately describes as the OAP Pass or specific to that group,as they are now actually in a minority of FTP holders.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • #337
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    https://media.giphy.com/media/VcWnY3R6YWVtC/giphy.gif


  • #338
    Spleerbun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭Spleerbun


    For the people arguing about how tough pensioners have it, my god just wait until the next generation(s) reach that age. Then you'll see what tough really is. The coffers are bone dry folks!


  • #339
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    It is worth noting,that of the 902,000 FTP holders

    That's a shockingly high number.

    Half of this country is living off the back of the other half.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmckWVPRaI

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #340
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    Admit I didn't read the whole thread, but did we solve the mystery of why there appears to be mass movement of unemployed people from Carlow to Dublin early every morning?


  • #341
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That's a shockingly high number.

    Half of this country is living off the back of the other half.

    Ireland’s population is under 2,000,000? :confused:

    If you’re just talking about the workers, well, pensioners worked too, most of them. Many of the men anyway and brought their children up in single-income families. And women that didn’t work might not be very asset-rich. I can’t get over the pettiness.

    I mean, would you be happy if somebody asked you why you had four children that, according to you, you’re finding it hard to afford? No, that would an arseholish thing to ask. But you’re casting judgement of the lifestyles of a whole cohort of people and that is equally as arseholish.


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  • #342
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,490 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    So on top of the existing substantial extra costs of living with a disability of up to €10k a year, you now want those people to pay more to travel to/from work, just to make other commuters feel a bit better?


    https://www.rte.ie/eile/brainstorm/2017/1129/923751-the-hidden-cost-of-disability/


    On the broader issue, one advantage of the new digital cards is that at least the travel companies should be able to track usage, and should have some decent data about how often/frequently those who use the pass are travelling.

    I think it's fair for some part payment during peak hours.
    It's not beyond the wit of those in power to use the PSC card/updated PSC card with an onboard scanner that could show date and time of say hospital appointment for those FTP users that need to travel during peak


  • #343
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    I think it's fair for some part payment during peak hours.
    It's not beyond the wit of those in power to use the PSC card/updated PSC card with an onboard scanner that could show date and time of say hospital appointment for those FTP users that need to travel during peak


    See earlier responses



    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108701371&postcount=327


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108701491&postcount=329



    Have any any idea what would be involved in integrating hospital systems in every hospital and outpatient service in the country with the FTP cards?


  • #344
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,490 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    See earlier responses



    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108701371&postcount=327


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108701491&postcount=329



    Have any any idea what would be involved in integrating hospital systems in every hospital and outpatient service in the country with the FTP cards?

    No idea, why don't you tell me?


  • #345
    Broxi_Bear_Eire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Broxi_Bear_Eire


    Emme wrote: »
    I have just got on the train. I pay over €3K a year for the privilege of travelling to work and €250 a year for parking. I am forced to commute by train because there are no viable alternatives. Driving is out because it would take 2 hours or more each way on the N7. There are no buses that go from my area. I cannot afford to live any closer to work. There are thousands of people in my position.

    Eveey morning a good proportion of the seats are taken up by what look like free travel pass holders. Sometimes people like myself (paying commuters) have to stand because of this. From Athy on more people have to stand. Meanwhile the FTP holders who got on in Waterford or Kilkenny bask in comfort.

    I understand some of them have to go to hospital appointments which is fair enough. But the gaggle of 8 mature women talking loudly about their shopping trip could have got a later train. They will probably get a peak time train home in the evening as will many of the other FTP holders. They always seem to get to the train first in the evenings while people who rush to the train from work often have to stand.

    When you are tired and burnt out you can get angry and resentful. Angry and resentful of getting nothing for your taxes and paying a huge chunk of your salary to commute (often standing each way) while those who pay nothing get the seats.

    I agree that some of these people worked hard and paid high taxes in their time but not as many of them were forced to do long commutes. They didn't have to work under the same pressure as people do now. Many of the women could be full time mums while many commuting women do not have this choice. Many of the FTP holders are in better health and more energetic than exhausted commuters. Yet we will have to work far longer than they did. Because of their energy they are able to protest if the government takes away their full time FTPs. There was a time it was for off peak travel only.

    Meanwhile commuters are getting screwed in every way but are too exhausted to do anything.

    The FTP should be for off peak travel only. If the government wants to give it to pensioners full time it should be means tested. If some of them can afford to shop in BTs they can surely afford the price of a train ticket.

    Many will disagree with me. But I am tired of paying so much and getting nothing in return.
    So I am disabled and have to travel to Dublin for treatment in a regular basis I live in Donegal. Tell me ho I manage this if only traveling at off peak. Paid all my contributions all my working life and now I need some help O should not get it because you begrudge me aye very good


  • #346
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    I think it's fair for some part payment during peak hours.
    It's not beyond the wit of those in power to use the PSC card/updated PSC card with an onboard scanner that could show date and time of say hospital appointment for those FTP users that need to travel during peak

    The cost of administering and maintaining that system would probably outweigh the money made from it. It sounds incredibly complicated. Unless you think it might more act as a deterrent to travelling and you aren’t that fussed about the cost, more thinking it might make more space for rush hour commuters? In that case, fair enough.

    But how many seats would it really free up? This seems to be the OP’s main gripe. Most people avoid travelling at peak times if at all possible, FTP holder or not. Who wants to be on crowded public transport when they don’t need to be? I’m an FTP holder and, believe me, I won’t get on rush hour public transport unless I absolutely have to.

    I just don’t think a small charge would make the difference the OP hopes it would. Who to blame then?


  • #347
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    No idea, why don't you tell me?


    Maybe you should have got yourself some idea before you proposed the idea?


  • #348
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,490 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    The cost of administering and maintaining that system would probably outweigh the money made from it. It sounds incredibly complicated. Unless you think it might more act as a deterrent to travelling and you aren’t that fussed about the cost, more thinking it might make more space for rush hour commuters? In that case, fair enough.

    But how many seats would it really free up? This seems to be the OP’s main gripe. Most people avoid travelling at peak times if at all possible, FTP holder or not. Who wants to be on crowded public transport when they don’t need to be? I’m an FTP holder and, believe me, I won’t get on rush hour public transport unless I absolutely have to.

    I just don’t think a small charge would make the difference the OP hopes it would. Who to blame then?

    I have no problem with FTP scheme but I do believe that during peak hours there should be at least some small contribution paid - what % I don't know as I don't have the data etc but I see that over 900k people hold a pass and that's a lot of people. And no, I don't believe everyone of them is on buses and trains during peak

    I believe in an integrated system for all public services (transport/social protection/hospitals etc) and that's what the PSC is ostensibly in existence for so I am assuming there is some infrastructure in place so full integration can occur at some time.

    The money "saved" by charging a nominal fee to those not disabled and working or on their way to peaktime hospital appts might possibly reduce future inevitable fare increases to already hardpressed non free pass users for example.

    I believe no matter how small, everyone should contribute something.

    Everything is so basic and flat across the board in Ireland in respect to social protection - for instance JSB - you may work 30 years and find yourself out of your job and you receive a flat rate of 198e the same or less than the famous "scroungers" that light up every thread on AH.


  • #349
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,490 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Maybe you should have got yourself some idea before you proposed the idea?

    Hold your horses there sunshine, you're the one who is telling everyone it would be a colossal sum of money.
    I think it's up to you to come up with a figure
    See my other post - PSC is in existence and from that hould come full integration of public services.


  • #350
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    I have no problem with FTP scheme but I do believe that during peak hours there should be at least some small contribution paid - what % I don't know as I don't have the data etc but I see that over 900k people hold a pass and that's a lot of people. And no, I don't believe everyone of them is on buses and trains during peak

    I believe in an integrated system for all public services (transport/social protection/hospitals etc) and that's what the PSC is ostensibly in existence for so I am assuming there is some infrastructure in place so full integration can occur at some time.

    The money "saved" by charging a nominal fee to those not disabled and working or on their way to peaktime hospital appts might possibly reduce future inevitable fare increases to already hardpressed non free pass users for example.

    I believe no matter how small, everyone should contribute something.

    Everything is so basic and flat across the board in Ireland in respect to social protection - for instance JSB - you may work 30 years and find yourself out of your job and you receive a flat rate of 198e the same or less than the famous "scroungers" that light up every thread on AH.
    As a person who has done lots of travel on public transport during peak hours, I've never reached a point where I'm annoyed at pensioners enjoying free travel during their retirement... It is none of your business if they're enjoying themselves or going for a medical appointment.

    Your post reeks of choosing a random group to blame all your travel woes on.


  • #351
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    batgoat wrote: »
    As a person who has done lots of travel on public transport during peak hours, I've never reached a point where I'm annoyed at pensioners enjoying free travel during their retirement... It is none of your business if they're enjoying themselves or going for a medical appointment.

    Your post reeks of choosing a random group to blame all your travel woes on.

    The OP too. I hate scapegoating. It solves precisely nothing.

    And, yeah, when I was in full health, the (small number) of pensioners I saw on rush hour transport never bothered me.


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  • #352
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    Hold your horses there sunshine, you're the one who is telling everyone it would be a colossal sum of money.
    I think it's up to you to come up with a figure
    See my other post - PSC is in existence and from that hould come full integration of public services.


    You think wrong. Again.


    There are existing IT programmes in place for eHealth in the HSE and the PSC card roll-out. Neither of these programmes include your great plan to give credit for hospital appointments on the FTP card.



    In fact, there is no facility to give credit for anything on the FTP card. It's not a wallet, like the Leap card. It is a pass, that entitles the holder to travel on all services at all times. So any plans to restrict the pass would require major chances, and plans to convert the pass card to a wallet to store and use specific permits for specific services at specific locations at specific times and dates would be a major change to the current system.


    And that's before you even start looking at the health service, the number of different hospitals and outpatient services, all with their own separate booking systems, and some with no computerised booking - just a paper diary.



    Are you really suggesting that the current programmes for PSC and eHealth should be thrown out the window to build a facility to RESTRICT public services for ill people, just to make you feel a bit better?


  • #353
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,490 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    batgoat wrote: »
    As a person who has done lots of travel on public transport during peak hours, I've never reached a point where I'm annoyed at pensioners enjoying free travel during their retirement... It is none of your business if they're enjoying themselves or going for a medical appointment.

    Your post reeks of choosing a random group to blame all your travel woes on.

    You are certainly jumping to the wrong conclusion there.

    Now, how much will a fully integrated system cost?


  • #354
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,490 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    The OP too. I hate scapegoating. It solves precisely nothing.

    And, yeah, when I was in full health, the (small number) of pensioners I saw on rush hour transport never bothered me.

    Another one with less than full comprehension.
    Who am I scapegoating by proposing a small fee in peak travel hours with exclusions within a fully integrated system?


  • #355
    ShadyAcres
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭ShadyAcres


    "Eveey morning a good proportion of the seats are taken up by what look like free travel pass holders"

    I got as far as here.


  • #356
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,490 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You think wrong. Again.


    There are existing IT programmes in place for eHealth in the HSE and the PSC card roll-out. Neither of these programmes include your great plan to give credit for hospital appointments on the FTP card.



    In fact, there is no facility to give credit for anything on the FTP card. It's not a wallet, like the Leap card. It is a pass, that entitles the holder to travel on all services at all times. So any plans to restrict the pass would require major chances, and plans to convert the pass card to a wallet to store and use specific permits for specific services at specific locations at specific times and dates would be a major change to the current system.


    And that's before you even start looking at the health service, the number of different hospitals and outpatient services, all with their own separate booking systems, and some with no computerised booking - just a paper diary.



    Are you really suggesting that the current programmes for PSC and eHealth should be thrown out the window to build a facility to RESTRICT public services for ill people, just to make you feel a bit better?

    BiB - No, I'm not.

    I'm asking and wondering if a fully integrated public services system would be beneficial overall - pulling all public services together not because you have some lunatic idea I want to punish OAPs and disabled/sick people.

    The PSC card (including entitlement to free travel) is the start, why couldn't it eventually tie up with other public services as that is the reason behind it.

    And less of the hyperbole and clutching of your pearls - I couldn't give a flying fck how many OAPs etc are on buses and trains


  • #357
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Ireland’s population is under 2,000,000? :confused:

    FTPs aren't the only welfare abuse going on.
    I mean, would you be happy if somebody asked you why you had four children that, according to you, you’re finding it hard to afford? No, that would an arseholish thing to ask. But you’re casting judgement of the lifestyles of a whole cohort of people and that is equally as arseholish.

    That's a completely moronic rant.

    I don't have four kids, I work for a living so I can only afford to have two.

    I have to pay all the bills for my own family, while supporting countless feckless others who live off my back.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #358
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,636 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    This post has been deleted.


  • #359
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,636 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    This post has been deleted.


  • #360
    smilerf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,633 ✭✭✭smilerf


    Hold on there now and I will just tell my neurologist I can only see him at off peak hours because your not happy


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  • #361
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,636 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    This post has been deleted.


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