Free Travel Pass Holders on peak time public transport

Emme

I have just got on the train. I pay over €3K a year for the privilege of travelling to work and €250 a year for parking. I am forced to commute by train because there are no viable alternatives. Driving is out because it would take 2 hours or more each way on the N7. There are no buses that go from my area. I cannot afford to live any closer to work. There are thousands of people in my position.

Eveey morning a good proportion of the seats are taken up by what look like free travel pass holders. Sometimes people like myself (paying commuters) have to stand because of this. From Athy on more people have to stand. Meanwhile the FTP holders who got on in Waterford or Kilkenny bask in comfort.

I understand some of them have to go to hospital appointments which is fair enough. But the gaggle of 8 mature women talking loudly about their shopping trip could have got a later train. They will probably get a peak time train home in the evening as will many of the other FTP holders. They always seem to get to the train first in the evenings while people who rush to the train from work often have to stand.

When you are tired and burnt out you can get angry and resentful. Angry and resentful of getting nothing for your taxes and paying a huge chunk of your salary to commute (often standing each way) while those who pay nothing get the seats.

I agree that some of these people worked hard and paid high taxes in their time but not as many of them were forced to do long commutes. They didn't have to work under the same pressure as people do now. Many of the women could be full time mums while many commuting women do not have this choice. Many of the FTP holders are in better health and more energetic than exhausted commuters. Yet we will have to work far longer than they did. Because of their energy they are able to protest if the government takes away their full time FTPs. There was a time it was for off peak travel only.

Meanwhile commuters are getting screwed in every way but are too exhausted to do anything.

The FTP should be for off peak travel only. If the government wants to give it to pensioners full time it should be means tested. If some of them can afford to shop in BTs they can surely afford the price of a train ticket.

Many will disagree with me. But I am tired of paying so much and getting nothing in return.

JustAYoungLad

This is the most Irish thread ive ever read. Blowing up a non issue and extrapolating it as some sort of plight for the irish people.

Mate if you dont like people don t take the luas

Dalomanakora

So my quite disabled relative who can't even walk without assistance should only go out off-peak?


Or how about they go out whenever the hell it suits them because they're entitled to their travel pass?

antodeco

I'm assuming they told you they have a FTP and you're not just assuming they have them based on their "appearance"?

Emme

JustAYoungLad wrote: »

This is the most Irish thread ive ever read. Blowing up a non issue and extrapolating it as some sort of plight for the irish people.

Mate if you dont like people don t take the luas

I don't take the Luas, I take the train from Carlow. How long is your commute?

MrMusician18

Dalomanakora wrote: »

So my quite disabled relative who can't even walk without assistance should only go out off-peak?


Or how about they go out whenever the hell it suits them because they're entitled to their travel pass?

Perhaps they should only be free off-peak is what the op is suggesting.

If they want to go out during the peak they should pay.

And OP, as another kick on the balls,by the time you retire the free travel pass will be long gone.

iamwhoiam

I paid taxes for 45 years , my husband paid taxes for 45 years .We worked hard through two resessions and got our three to UNI .Thankfully we also thought them to have manners , respect and realise how much of their elders scrimped and saved for them .Many worked two jobs to pay a mortgage . Thankfully they know this and would be first to be happy for anyone who know has free travel to enjoy a day out .They would also be the first to give them their seat .

Grab All Association

How original a thread.


Without free travel pass users it’d cost you a lot more to travel on public transport. Pass holders would fill seats that otherwise would remain empty. Companies have a choice of 70% of the fare or bulk payment.

Part of the reason off peak use was scrapped was because transport companies requested it from Seamus Brennan as they struggled to fill/sell seats. 70% is better than an empty seat.

Emme

Dalomanakora wrote: »

So my quite disabled relative who can't even walk without assistance should only go out off-peak?


Or how about they go out whenever the hell it suits them because they're entitled to their travel pass?

I am not talking about the ill or disabled. I am talking about fit able people who are milking the FTP for all it's worth and travelling at peak time when it is not necessary. Commuters have no choice.

Dalomanakora

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Perhaps they should only go out for free off-peak is what the op is suggesting.

If they want to go out during the peak they should pay

Or perhaps they should go out whenever they want because it's difficult enough being disabled without self entitled workers saying they should vacate their seats because the workers can't handle standing for a commute.


If the government decrees that they should pay, then they should pay. But that hasn't happened, so they can travel whenever they like.

Emme

Grab All Association wrote: »

How original a thread.


Without free travel pass users it’d cost you a lot more to travel on public transport. Pass holders would fill seats that otherwise would remain empty. Companies have a choice of 70% of the fair or bulk payment.

Part of the reason off peak use was scrapped was because transport companies requested it from Seamus Brennan as they struggled to fill/sell seats. 70% is better than an empty seat.

Then let them travel on off peak trains which are more likely to have empty seats. If people are crammed into the corridors and the aisles on peak trains there are no empty seats.

Qrt

Emme wrote: »

I don't take the Luas, I take the train from Carlow. How long is your commute?

How long is yours? Just wondering, I’ve never talked to someone who commuted from outside Dublin!

amdublin

How many people are we really talking here though?

mickuhaha

Emme wrote: »

I am not talking about the ill or disabled. I am talking about fit able people who are milking the FTP for all it's worth and travelling at peak time when it is not necessary. Commuters have no choice.

I would agree with the point that it is annoying not having a seat but this is Irish rails fault not ftph. You may have been able to taken an early train.

MrMusician18

Dalomanakora wrote: »

Or perhaps they should go out whenever they want because it's difficult enough being disabled without self entitled workers saying they should vacate their seats because the workers can't handle standing for a commute.


If the government decrees that they should pay, then they should pay. But that hasn't happened, so they can travel whenever they like.

Well obviously. What the OP is suggesting is a change in policy. Free anything is always a bad idea, it leads to abuse

Ah self entitled workers. You mean those that pay for everything and get the least in return? Those people?

antodeco

Emme wrote: »

Then let them travel on off peak trains which are more likely to have empty seats. If people are crammed into the corridors and the aisles on peak trains there are no empty seats.

The problem with this is their free travel will be outside business hours etc, so more awkward. I think the better way to phrase this is that there should be a reduced fair during peak and free off-peak.

Emme

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I paid taxes for 45 years , my husband paid taxes for 45 years .We worked hard through two resessions and got our three to UNI .Thankfully we also thought them to have manners , respect and realise how much of their elders scrimped and saved for them .Many worked two jobs to pay a mortgage . Thankfully they know this and would be first to be happy for anyone who know has free travel to enjoy a day out .They would also be the first to give them their seat .

I appreciate that some worked two jobs to pay a mortgage. However this is not an option now because of (1) longer working hours and (2) longer commutes.

If you have to keep reminding your children of the sacrifices you made then it is not a sacrifice but a guilt trip.

If someone is disabled or incapacitated a seat should be give up for them. But luckily being a certain age does not guarantee this.

mad muffin

Personally I blame the liberals. All of today’s societies ills stem from them. All of it.

Emme

mickuhaha wrote: »

I would agree with the point that it is annoying not having a seat but this is Irish rails fault not ftph. You may have been able to taken an early train.

I am talking about early trains, every morning.

Dalomanakora

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Well obviously. What the OP is suggesting is a change in policy. Free anything is always a bad idea, it leads to abuse

Ah self entitled workers. You mean those that pay for everything and get the least in return? Those people?

I'm also a worker.

I mean those who apparently are incapable of standing during a commute because their job is so difficult.

mickuhaha

Emme wrote: »

I am talking about early trains, every morning.

I know you are I used to live in Carlow. The first two trains in the morning I never had an issue finding a seat only from athy onwards. This might have changed.

Graces7

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Well obviously. What the OP is suggesting is a change in policy. Free anything is always a bad idea, it leads to abuse

Ah self entitled workers. You mean those that pay for everything and get the least in return? Those people?

No it doesn't.

Emme

Dalomanakora wrote: »

I'm also a worker.

I mean those who apparently are incapable of standing during a commute because their job is so difficult.

I have an autoimmune condition and am in remission from ME. But I still hold down a job. I am not the only working person in this position. I have had several blackouts on crowded trains and a seat makes a huge difference to me.

blue note

Op - why don't you live closer to work? It wouldn't by any chance be a choice you made to live far away for the benefits of a bigger house, cheaper cost of living, etc? As opposed to buffering forced into it.

zell12

"are taken up by what look like free travel pass holders"
:pac:

witchgirl26

OP here's an alternative view for you. My sister got the Luas every day of her pregnancy. Now she was one of those people who looked really obviously pregnant (not just maybe a bit of weight on) - defined bump etc. Not one of the hard workers on the Luas ever gave up a seat to her but the 80-something year old man and his wife who were also on the same Luas did every single day. She got talking to them one day and it turns out they were going to look after their grandchild for the mornings so their daughter could go to work.

So you mention 8 people you saw one day. 8 out of how many other commuters? Is it really that big of a problem? And you don't know if they were free-pass holders or not. They might have paid just the same as you but just looked a little older. Truth is you don't know but are getting annoyed because you didn't get a seat. And sure if they were on a commuter train (so I'm guessing in your station round 8am) and were from further back the line so they were obviously up a hell of a lot earlier than you to get that train so they could have a full day out. Maybe just get an earlier train yourself and they wouldn't be on it.

troyzer

Graces7 wrote: »

No it doesn't.

Yes, it does.

The free travel pass is a good idea but it shouldn't come at the expense of people who are paying both for themselves and the travel pass.

The OP is right. As a 25 year old it just depresses me how older people managed to shaft my generation with national debt, an unaffordable housing market and lower salaries whilst simultaneously enjoying benefits at our expense that we'll never have like state pensions and free travel passes.

That's how society works and that's fine, hopefully things will get better slowly for us. But in the meantime, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if you're going to get free travel passes then you shouldn't be allowed to use them at peak times.

You don't need to be in Dublin nine in the morning, people who work do. Unless you have a medical appointment of course, in which case it should be free.

By the way, I think the OP is probably taking too many liberties by assuming they're FTPHs. But we all know that public transport capacity is bursting at the seams so even if you can reduce the numbers by 5-10% it would help.

Plumbthedepths

Emme wrote:

I have an autoimmune condition and am in remission from ME. But I still hold down a job. I am not the only working person in this position. I have had several blackouts on crowded trains and a seat makes a huge difference to me.

Just to point out something here, but if you are prone to blackouts why are you driving a car, have you told the NDLS this? You did mention you pay for parking.

Graces7

Emme wrote: »

I am not talking about the ill or disabled. I am talking about fit able people who are milking the FTP for all it's worth and travelling at peak time when it is not necessary. Commuters have no choice.

Sorry you feel so bad OP but that is not "milking the FTP" . The older ladies sound delightful and happy and they are doing nothing wrong..

Emme

mickuhaha wrote: »

I know you are I used to live in Carlow. The first two trains in the morning I never had an issue finding a seat only from athy onwards. This might have changed.

Those trains must have increased capacity so or you are living in a parallel universe. The second train is always crammed when I get it.

Graces7

Emme wrote: »

I have an autoimmune condition and am in remission from ME. But I still hold down a job. I am not the only working person in this position. I have had several blackouts on crowded trains and a seat makes a huge difference to me.

Truly sorry; I have M.E too and autoimmune issues and I know what a struggle life is. You are actually disabled and should make that known. Also I sincerely hope you are wearing a mask in these crowded places?
That would also help folk take better care of you eg give a seat.

Emme

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Just to point out something here, but if you are prone to blackouts why are you driving a car, have you told the NDLS this? You did mention you pay for parking.

I don't get blackouts every day. I get them if I am crammed into a black hole of Calcutta style crush - I am 5'2" so arguably overcrowding would affect me more than somebody of 5'10". My doctor has declared me fit to drive and I check in with him regularly

Emme

Graces7 wrote: »

Truly sorry; I have M.E too and autoimmune issues and I know what a struggle life is. You are actually disabled and should make that known. Also I sincerely hope you are wearing a mask in these crowded places?
That would also help folk take better care of you eg give a seat.

I don't consider myself disabled. However the mask is a good idea for everyone because of all the bugs spread by overcrowding. Getting coughed all over is not a pleasant experience.

Graces7

troyzer wrote: »

Yes, it does.

The free travel pass is a good idea but it shouldn't come at the expense of people who are paying both for themselves and the travel pass.

The OP is right. As a 25 year old it just depresses me how older people managed to shaft my generation with national debt, an unaffordable housing market and lower salaries whilst simultaneously enjoying benefits at our expense that we'll never have like state pensions and free travel passes.

That's how society works and that's fine, hopefully things will get better slowly for us. But in the meantime, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if you're going to get free travel passes then you shouldn't be allowed to use them at peak times.

You don't need to be in Dublin nine in the morning, people who work do. Unless you have a medical appointment of course, in which case it should be free.

By the way, I think the OP is probably taking too many liberties by assuming they're FTPHs. But we all know that public transport capacity is bursting at the seams so even if you can reduce the numbers by 5-10% it would help.

Ah I I get you now... an angry youngster.. And no using a pass is not ABUsing a pass. freely available all the day long ( and no I do not ave a pass or any public transport ) and at any time.

MrMusician18

Graces7 wrote: »

No it doesn't.

I'm afraid it does Grace. Reducing the cost of any service where demand is controlled by price always leads to an increase in use when prices fall. Another example of this is free GP care for under sixes has led to a 30% increase in under sixes attending the GP. If free services are not ever abused there should only have been a marginal increase in visits.

Anecdotally I know of plenty of OAPs that use their FTP to go on excursions and day trips that they would not have taken if they were paying €30 for the day return

Plumbthedepths

Emme wrote:

I don't get blackouts every day. I get them if I am crammed into a black hole of Calcutta style crush - I am 5'2" so arguably overcrowding would affect me more than somebody of 5'10". My doctor has declared me fit to drive and I check in with him regularly

If you are prone to blackouts , you should not be behind the wheel. There is no Indian style crush on Irish trains. Your blackouts are most likely brought on by stress which can also be triggered in a car. I think your driving is incredibly irresponsible tbh.
Have you told your doctor you are suffering blackouts occasionally? Do you not think your safety and that of other road users is important?

facehugger99

Emme wrote: »

Meanwhile the FTP holders who got on in Waterford or Kilkenny bask in comfort.

On Irish Rail?

Nah, they sit on scratchy upholstery surrounded by other people's farts.

Graces7

Emme wrote: »

I don't consider myself disabled. However the mask is a good idea for everyone because of all the bugs spread by overcrowding. Getting coughed all over is not a pleasant experience.

M.e is a disabling illness... period. Stressful holding down a job and you are doing well.

But nothing anyone says here is going to please you?

average_runner

I have no problem with the genuine people having the passes and old folks as they have given their service(well most have).

The problem is , there is alot out there who have the passes and shouldn't.

The working folk are fell up in this country paying top tax and getting nothing in return.

Emme

blue note wrote: »

Op - why don't you live closer to work? It wouldn't by any chance be a choice you made to live far away for the benefits of a bigger house, cheaper cost of living, etc? As opposed to buffering forced into it.

Like thousands of others I was forced to live a long distance from work because of housing costs. In happier times I lived 20 minutes from work and cycled but years of commuting has destroyed my health and general well-being.

Graces7

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

If you are prone to blackouts , you should not be behind the wheel. There is no Indian style crush on Irish trains. Your blackouts are most likely brought on by stress which can also be triggered in a car. I think your driving is incredibly irresponsible tbh.
Have you told your doctor you are suffering blackouts occasionally? Do you not think your safety and that of other road users is important?

Agree totally. Itis probably a condition linked with M.E called POTS a postural thing. Have a look at this, please OP. It can e treated. Means when you have to stand a while you literally black out; see your dr? There is a web resource called "phoenix rising" with a good section on this.
pm if you need.

troyzer

Graces7 wrote: »

Ah I I get you now... an angry youngster.. And no using a pass is not ABUsing a pass. freely available all the day long ( and no I do not ave a pass or any public transport ) and at any time.

Yeah, wouldn't want to be an uppity youngster. How dare I have a go at older people with their €500k houses they bought for €40k whilst forcing us to pay €1.5k a month for a shed an hour and a half away from work which pays us less than it pays you simply for being younger.

And while you're retired and enjoying your state pension and free travel pass, it's left to us to pay the €200bn national debt you racked up.

Cheers for that.

Show some humility, older people in Ireland are absolutely blessed with all of the advantages they have over younger people. More money, more public services, more freebies and they struggled far less with the basics than we are now. That's just a fact.

The pass is currently availably for free all day long, but it shouldn't be. That's the whole point.

facehugger99

Dalomanakora wrote: »

So my quite disabled relative who can't even walk without assistance should only go out off-peak?

Yes.

gwalk

I'm going to contact every free travel pass holder i know and suggest that they get that train every morning so there is even less of a chance of you getting a seat

The Uk system limits free travel to your local area only. I agree with the OP that it should be limited to off peak only.

iamwhoiam

Emme wrote: »

I appreciate that some worked two jobs to pay a mortgage. However this is not an option now because of (1) longer working hours and (2) longer commutes.

If you have to keep reminding your children of the sacrifices you made then it is not a sacrifice but a guilt trip.

If someone is disabled or incapacitated a seat should be give up for them. But luckily being a certain age does not guarantee this.

I thought them manners and respect .They dont need to be guilt tripped they are fully functioning adults who know their manners .

facehugger99

Even the phrase 'Free Travel' is erroneous.

Someone always has to pick up the tab. As per usual it's the people who pick up the tab for everything else like free water, free education and forever-homes.

RobbingBandit

I am autistic up until about 6 months ago to look at me using my free travel you wouldn't think there was anything much up as most people did and still do even now when I am wearing a giant boot on my left foot due to medical complications about 90% of the time I struggle to get seats on public transport going to and from appointments or going about my daily activities I have no job and limited opportunities or options which will now be even more limited due to my ever growing issues with my leg and foot perhaps someone suffering from issues such as mine were the ones profiled today.

Count yourself lucky you have the means and abilities to provide for yourself instead of looking down on those less fortunate than you who need a little help.

iamwhoiam

facehugger99 wrote: »

Even the phrase 'Free Travel' is erroneous.

Someone always has to pick up the tab. As per usual it's the people who pick up the tab for everything else like free water, free education and forever-homes.

Yep , same as those who now have free travel picked up the tabs for those who needed assistants back when they worked .And so it goes .

lawred2

Overcrowding on our sub standard public transport systems is not the fault of a few people with free travel passes.

That failure lies largely at the feet of CIE and successive Irish governments. But also at our feet - we get what we elect - while we keep electing local issue short termist seat minding shoite bags in every constituency this is what we will get.

Emme

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

If you are prone to blackouts , you should not be behind the wheel. There is no Indian style crush on Irish trains. Your blackouts are most likely brought on by stress which can also be triggered in a car. I think your driving is incredibly irresponsible tbh.
Have you told your doctor you are suffering blackouts occasionally? Do you not think your safety and that of other road users is important?

As I said I check in regularly with my doctor and that includes after blackouts. I trust his experience and qualifications.

I agree with the safety of other road users but nobody cares about safety of rail users on overcrowded trains. You can only carry so many people in a car but you can cram as many people as you like into a train. I have never had a blackout in a car.

Have you ever felt suffocated in a crush coming out of a match or concert? That's often what rail transport is like. Many have blackouts in overcrowded hot conditions.