'The Haunting Soldier' sculpture vandalised

23-11-2018 10:27AM

Berserker wrote: »

You were part of the empire and there were rich, some incredibly rich Irish born people and poor people in this country, just like there were rich and poor after 1916 and there are rich and poor today. There were rich and poor people all over the UK also. As for famine, Yemen is in dire straits at the moment, don't see you lot, as a super rich nation, rushing out to help them. Plenty of people in Ireland won't be able to afford a roof over their head and food today also.

Worst.. famine.. defence.. ever

Mrsmum · 23-11-2018 10:32AM

Ireland was never "part of". It was ruled by. No matter how you try and rewrite history. It might have suited some irish gentry to join the british establishment and enjoy the good life but to be fair to them, the alternative was not all that attractive.

23-11-2018 10:44AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Barry_(soldier)

That man was a legend in the war of independence, yet he was a British WW1 soldier too.
Half, or more, of the families in Ireland have a story like that. Mine does.

So the fringe weirdos who throw paint at statues can go to hell

mikhail · 23-11-2018 10:50AM

vonlars wrote: »

What makes you think it's a British soldier? 200,000 Irishmen fought in WWI. Should we forget them simply because of whose side they were on while fighting for peace?

Yeah, that's what they were after, and not steady meals and a pay cheque :rolleyes:. I can never get my head around the people who romanticise WWI. It was a collection of inbred royal cousins squabbling over territory and bragging rights, same as many a war before it.

That said, there's no excusing the vandalism of the statue. I wouldn't condone it even if it were a monument to imperialism, but it's in remembrance of the soldiers and the effect of the war on them.

RandomName2 · 23-11-2018 10:53AM

klaaaz wrote: »

Serving the British Empire in a British uniform. Have you laid any poppies at the statue yet?

Oh ffs, this cretin. Yes, all Irish people who worked in the public and civil service at that time were serving the British Empire.

runawaybishop wrote: »

It could be a small Jack Russell terrier too, but it isn't.

No, it's a lump of recycled metal. Do you have a point?

Berserker wrote: »

You were part of the empire and there were rich, some incredibly rich Irish born people and poor people in this country, just like there were rich and poor after 1916 and there are rich and poor today.

No, not really. To say there was a lack of investment in Irish infrastructure in the 19th century is the understatement of the century. There was no particular desire to invest in what was seen as an unprofitable backwater that was only kept for strategic interests. The Irish government today sometimes invests badly, and there are plenty of pigs with their snouts in the trough, but ultimately the interests of the Irish government lie in increasing the development index of Ireland. The situation in Yemen today is not really comparable either.

Berserker · 23-11-2018 11:00AM

riffmongous wrote: »

Worst.. famine.. defence.. ever

Care to elaborate?

Mrsmum wrote: »

Ireland was never "part of". It was ruled by. No matter how you try and rewrite history. It might have suited some irish gentry to join the british establishment and enjoy the good life but to be fair to them, the alternative was not all that attractive.

I can provide you with tonnes of references which prove that Ireland was part of it, if you want to go down that road. The kingdoms of the Great Britain and Ireland merged, under the Acts of Union 1800 and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland were established at that point, for starters.

23-11-2018 11:04AM

Berserker wrote: »

You were part of the empire and there were rich, some incredibly rich Irish born people and poor people in this country, just like there were rich and poor after 1916 and there are rich and poor today. There were rich and poor people all over the UK also. As for famine, Yemen is in dire straits at the moment, don't see you lot, as a super rich nation, rushing out to help them. Plenty of people in Ireland won't be able to afford a roof over their head and food today also.

Your contempt is barely disguised.

Rory28 · 23-11-2018 11:08AM

Berserker wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

How can you compare what Ireland are doing or not doing in Yemen to what the British govt did during the famine here? Are you just trying to antagonize people or do you really think they are comparable?

mfceiling · 23-11-2018 11:12AM

Was the statue meant to represent any soldier from any country who fought in WW1?

Wife told me that it was specifically commissioned by a lady to remember any soldier who died in the war.

Sad that a no good prick would decide to deface this but didn't something similar happen when they brought over elephant statues years ago? They were fine in every other country they were displayed in but got vandalised in dublin.

RandomName2 · 23-11-2018 11:17AM

Rory28 wrote: »

How can you compare what Ireland are doing or not doing in Yemen to what the British govt did during the famine here? Are you just trying to antagonize people or do you really think they are comparable?

The Irish government doesn't say anything about Yemen because they can plead (with some justification) that it's nothing to do with them. Less forgivable is the web of alliances which make it expedient to say nothing.

Whitehall did next to nothing during the famine because they didn't give a sh*t, despite the fact, as the government, they were duty bound to do something. The only piece of legislation that was even introduced to address the famine in any shape or form was Robert Peel's repeal of the Corn Laws in 1846, and that caused his government to collapse!

kingchess · 23-11-2018 11:17AM

Berserker wrote: »

Would you prefer if it was a Nazi monument? Very popular bunch of lads among the elite of Irish republicanism back in the 1940s.

Amazing ,that the elite of Irish republicanism would have so much in common with king Edward viii.:D

_Brian · 23-11-2018 11:58AM

Berserker wrote: »

Ireland was part of the the empire back in those days

Think about why that was ??

Did we have a referendum to join it ?? Was there a vote of the people, a vote of our government ??

We were invaded and subjegated by the British crown and the country decimated by the same people... You attempt to make it sound like an amicable agreement or some such.. We were invaded by force and the rights to our own country taken from us.

Have you ever spoken to someone whos house was invaded by the black and tans, everything broken and overturned, their parents beaten before their children to demonstrate superiority and control.

People talk about attrocities comitted by republicans, yes they were attrocities, awful desperate acts comitted by desperate people in retalliation to an occupying force who themselves were treating the people of the country terribly..

I'm glad we have the peace we have now and respect our neighbours but we don't need this shiit shoved down our throats, implications of ignorance beacuse we don't appreciate the art of their soldiers, irish people take abuse because they won't wear poppies to remember their army and fund their social clubs.. Let them do what they want on their own time but we should make no appologies for not loving it.

RandomName2 · 23-11-2018 12:17PM

_Brian wrote: »

Think about why that was ??

Did we have a referendum to join it ?? Was there a vote of the people, a vote of our government ??

Actually there was.

The first vote on the act of union was defeated in the Irish House of Commons by 109 votes against to 104 for, the second vote in 1800 produced a result of 158 to 115, although there was apparently bribery involved in flipping votes.

mick malones mauser · 23-11-2018 12:29PM

Berserker wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

I can provide you with tonnes of references which prove that Ireland was part of it, if you want to go down that road. The kingdoms of the Great Britain and Ireland merged, under the Acts of Union 1800 and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland were established at that point, for starters.

Nobody should this Berserker guy seriously.
He actually believes that a 6 year old football club has won 54 league titles

Crazy

CrankyHaus · 23-11-2018 12:31PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Actually there was.

The first vote on the act of union was defeated in the Irish House of Commons by 109 votes against to 104 for, the second vote in 1800 produced a result of 158 to 115, although there was apparently bribery involved in flipping votes.

Who sat in the Irish House of Commons? ordinary Irish people or Anglo-Irish Landlords? Who was allowed vote? The penal laws were still on the books. That wasn't a referendum and it was not a legitimate Irish Government. Only 2 years beforehand mass executions, torture and repression of civilians had been necessary to protect it from the people it ruled.

Mrsmum · 23-11-2018 12:41PM

"Who sat in the Irish House of Commons? ordinary Irish people or Anglo-Irish Landlords? Who was allowed vote? The penal laws were still on the books. That wasn't a referendum and it was not a legitimate Irish Government. Only 2 years beforehand mass executions, torture and repression of civilians had been necessary to protect it from the people it ruled."

Exactly.

"After 1707, Ireland was, to varying degrees, subordinate to the Kingdom of Great Britain. The Parliament of Ireland had control over only legislation, while the executive branch of government, under the Lord Lieutenant, answered to the British government in London. Furthermore, the Penal Laws meant that Catholics, who constituted the majority of Irish people, were not permitted to sit in, or participate in, elections to the parliament. Meanwhile, building upon the precedent of Poynings' Law which required approval from the British Privy Council for bills to be put to the Irish Parliament, the Dependency of Ireland on Great Britain Act 1719 declared the British Parliament's right to legislate for Ireland and the British House of Lords appellate jurisdiction over its courts. " Wikipedia

But sure let's pretend that the Irish people had control over how they were ruled. Anyway if someone has to go to the famine in Yemen (and the fact that Ireland haven't sorted it out) to defend the British shameful past in Ireland, that person is lacking credibility in my book.

Mrsmum · 23-11-2018 12:53PM

In general re the statue, my opinion is that people should be remembered by their family and friends. Anyone who does something to benefit the state should be remembered by the state.

FrancieBrady · 23-11-2018 12:56PM

Wouldn't be my form of 'protest', but challenging the narrative that the hat doffers and empire apologists promulgate is always good.

There was nothing heroic, honourable about this war, it was an ignominious way to die for those who made a terrible mistake.
I have family members who made this mistake, and that is how they should be remembered as we condemn this war, and those who started it not mystify and revere it.

RandomName2 · 23-11-2018 01:01PM

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Who sat in the Irish House of Commons? ordinary Irish people or Anglo-Irish Landlords? Who was allowed vote? The penal laws were still on the books. That wasn't a referendum and it was not a legitimate Irish Government. Only 2 years beforehand mass executions, torture and repression of civilians had been necessary to protect it from the people it ruled.

Well that's a different argument. The franchise was very limited until the 1920s, and Catholics could not take seats until the mid-19th century (after the act of union). I'm pretty certain there were restrictions on Presbyterians in Ulster at this time as well.

Referenda to join a country are pretty rare occurrences. Unfortunately the only that come to mind are the ones in the Saarland and Austria, the latter of which wasn't democratic anyway. The Crimea as well, in more recent times (again, subject to a large degree of controversy) I suppose joining the EU has typically had referenda attached to it, unless you were a founding member of it, in which case the public had no say (Germans for instance have never had a referendum on the EU, ever). Point is that regions becoming part of a country (or empire) has never been something subject to a public vote, ever in history. I mean America simply bought most of itself.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. · 23-11-2018 01:06PM

Dunno. Looks better with the splash of red on it tbh.

Berserker · 23-11-2018 01:12PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

"Who sat in the Irish House of Commons? ordinary Irish people or Anglo-Irish Landlords? Who was allowed vote?

Citizens of Ireland sat in the Irish House of Commons. Their background is irrelevant to the discussion we were having, for the moment. You claimed that the Irish were forced into joining with GB. I would say, as does history and you, as per your post above, that those were were in political power in Ireland decided to merge with GB. Do you agree that a vote took place to merge the two?

Now, to delve a little deeper on the background, would you classify the current members of the Dail as elite, en masse? FF/FG certainly smack of it and have been accused of being so on many occasions. On the left, you have the likes of RBB and Mary-Lou, with her private school background.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well that's a different argument. The franchise was very limited until the 1920s, and Catholics could not take seats until the mid-19th century (after the act of union). I'm pretty certain there were restrictions on Presbyterians in Ulster at this time as well.

Presbyterians got a shockingly raw deal at the time. Incredible how that has swung round in NI. They are the loyal hardliners now.

_Brian · 23-11-2018 01:18PM

Berserker wrote: »

Citizens of Ireland sat in the Irish House of Commons. Their background is irrelevant to the discussion we were having, for the moment. You claimed that the Irish were forced into joining with GB. I would say, as does history and you, as per your post above, that those were were in political power in Ireland decided to merge with GB. Do you agree that a vote took place to merge the two?

Now, to delve a little deeper on the background, would you classify the current members of the Dail as elite, en masse? FF/FG certainly smack of it and have been accused of being so on many occasions. On the left, you have the likes of RBB and Mary-Lou, with her private school background.

Presbyterians got a shockingly raw deal at the time. Incredible how that has swung round in NI. They are the loyal hardliners now.

We had long since been invaded and suppressed by the crown with land disenfranchised and gifted to English gentry.

No amount of selective quoting rigged events will negate the fact that we were invaded and rights to our country taken from us.

Conall Cernach · 23-11-2018 01:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Barry_(soldier)

That man was a legend in the war of independence, yet he was a British WW1 soldier too.
Half, or more, of the families in Ireland have a story like that. Mine does.

So the fringe weirdos who throw paint at statues can go to hell

Did Tom Barry erect a statue of a British soldier? No, he shot British soldiers.

My own Great grandfather fought and was wounded in WW1. Two great uncles fought in WW2. One of those was a member of the British Legion and wore a poppy every November. Loyalists forced him out of his home in Co. Armagh in the late 60s.

23-11-2018 01:27PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

"Who sat in the Irish House of Commons? ordinary Irish people or Anglo-Irish Landlords? Who was allowed vote? The penal laws were still on the books. That wasn't a referendum and it was not a legitimate Irish Government. Only 2 years beforehand mass executions, torture and repression of civilians had been necessary to protect it from the people it ruled."

Exactly.

"After 1707, Ireland was, to varying degrees, subordinate to the Kingdom of Great Britain. The Parliament of Ireland had control over only legislation, while the executive branch of government, under the Lord Lieutenant, answered to the British government in London. Furthermore, the Penal Laws meant that Catholics, who constituted the majority of Irish people, were not permitted to sit in, or participate in, elections to the parliament. Meanwhile, building upon the precedent of Poynings' Law which required approval from the British Privy Council for bills to be put to the Irish Parliament, the Dependency of Ireland on Great Britain Act 1719 declared the British Parliament's right to legislate for Ireland and the British House of Lords appellate jurisdiction over its courts. " Wikipedia

But sure let's pretend that the Irish people had control over how they were ruled. Anyway if someone has to go to the famine in Yemen (and the fact that Ireland haven't sorted it out) to defend the British shameful past in Ireland, that person is lacking credibility in my book.

You seem to think that democracy in 1800 was something that the Irish people were somehow missing out on.

CrankyHaus · 23-11-2018 01:35PM

Berserker wrote: »

Citizens of Ireland sat in the Irish House of Commons. Their background is irrelevant to the discussion we were having, for the moment. You claimed that the Irish were forced into joining with GB. I would say, as does history and you, as per your post above, that those were were in political power in Ireland decided to merge with GB. Do you agree that a vote took place to merge the two?

Now, to delve a little deeper on the background, would you classify the current members of the Dail as elite, en masse? FF/FG certainly smack of it and have been accused of being so on many occasions. On the left, you have the likes of RBB and Mary-Lou, with her private school background.

Presbyterians got a shockingly raw deal at the time. Incredible how that has swung round in NI. They are the loyal hardliners now.

Between this and your "what about yemen" line on the great famine, we really are through the Looking Glass here.

I'm actually grateful for your candour, bizarre though it may be, as it exposes the true beliefs of those bleating about "honouring all those brave Irishmen who served in the Great War".

mick malones mauser · 23-11-2018 01:42PM

As I said earlier any one who believes that a 6 year old football team has won a league championship on 54 occasions is not to be taken seriously...
On any subject

Mrsmum · 23-11-2018 01:52PM

Berserker wrote: »

Citizens of Ireland sat in the Irish House of Commons. Their background is irrelevant to the discussion we were having, for the moment. You claimed that the Irish were forced into joining with GB. I would say, as does history and you, as per your post above, that those were were in political power in Ireland decided to merge with GB. Do you agree that a vote took place to merge the two?

Now, to delve a little deeper on the background, would you classify the current members of the Dail as elite, en masse? FF/FG certainly smack of it and have been accused of being so on many occasions. On the left, you have the likes of RBB and Mary-Lou, with her private school background."

Actually I quoted that post. Another poster deserves the credit for it.

Background is always relevant. Go study the background and check out who were the voters in the Irish Parliament in 1800 and where the people fitted in.

The Republic of Ireland is now a republic. There is absolutely no similarity between the way we are governed today and then.

gormdubhgorm · 23-11-2018 01:58PM

Killinator wrote: »

That's not a protest, it's criminal damage!

I know it is criminal damage but it is still a form of protest.
It is not the first time a statue or sculpture was vandalised/destroyed in Dublin from the Sean Russell statue in Fairview who wanted to get the axis powers to help Ireland gain full freedom

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/68249?print_page=true

beheaded-statue-of-sean-russell-fairview-park-dublin-3-ireland-AN3RJ0.jpg

beheaded-statue-of-sean-russell-fairview-park-dublin-3-ireland-AN3RJ0.jpg

Not to mention the most famous of them all Nelson's Pillar.

It will always happen from various political persuasions.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-11-2018 02:06PM

Berserker wrote: »

You were part of the empire and there were rich, some incredibly rich Irish born people and poor people in this country, just like there were rich and poor after 1916 and there are rich and poor today. There were rich and poor people all over the UK also. As for famine, Yemen is in dire straits at the moment, don't see you lot, as a super rich nation, rushing out to help them. Plenty of people in Ireland won't be able to afford a roof over their head and food today also.

The famine in the Yemen is caused by the same forces of imperialism that caused the famine in Ireland. As well as Saudi and the US one of the main players is the U.K. in terms of arms shipments.

We on the other hand can only protest on the sidelines or give money (which I have done).

( The money won’t have much effect on a man made famine though. The embargo needs to be lifted. And who can do that, who can influence that? )

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-11-2018 02:08PM

Berserker wrote: »

Citizens of Ireland sat in the Irish House of Commons. Their background is irrelevant to the discussion we were having, for the moment. You claimed that the Irish were forced into joining with GB. I would say, as does history and you, as per your post above, that those were were in political power in Ireland decided to merge with GB. Do you agree that a vote took place to merge the two?

Ludicrous.

'The Haunting Soldier' sculpture vandalised

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