Ireland v New Zealand match thread

molloyjh · 21-11-2018 02:24PM

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Finally rewatched the game last night. Regarding the box kick at the end, what do people think would have been the ideal tactic at the time? When I watched it live I was convinced they were going to turn it over, kick for touch and score a try off of a lineout, but obviously they came a little too close for comfort to scoring a try from kicking back possession too. I'm wondering if the box kick wasn't the least bad of the two options though?

I think it was the right call. We'd been pinged (fairly harshly IMO) for going off our feet at a ruck already and we saw what happened in 2013, and more recently in the Munster-Glasgow game. Trying to run down the clock from there was very risky. NZ hadn't gotten into a real try scoring position all game so backing our defence from close to their 22 was probably the safer bet compared to possibly conceding a penalty and having to defend a line out in or around our own 22. But there were pros and cons to both, and with the benefit of hindsight it's fairly easy for us to judge it now. Had NZ scored a try off it then would our views be different I wonder?

21-11-2018 02:28PM

molloyjh wrote: »

I think it was the right call. We'd been pinged (fairly harshly IMO) for going off our feet at a ruck already and we saw what happened in 2013, and more recently in the Munster-Glasgow game. Trying to run down the clock from there was very risky. NZ hadn't gotten into a real try scoring position all game so backing our defence from close to their 22 was probably the safer bet compared to possibly conceding a penalty and having to defend a line out in or around our own 22. But there were pros and cons to both, and with the benefit of hindsight it's fairly easy for us to judge it now. Had NZ scored a try off it then would our views be different I wonder?

It's best to dispel results based thinking yet ironically rugby is all about results

21-11-2018 02:49PM

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Finally rewatched the game last night. Regarding the box kick at the end, what do people think would have been the ideal tactic at the time? When I watched it live I was convinced they were going to turn it over, kick for touch and score a try off of a lineout, but obviously they came a little too close for comfort to scoring a try from kicking back possession too. I'm wondering if the box kick wasn't the least bad of the two options though?

From where the kick was taken to the try line was a shorter distance than the ground the All blacks gained from the first breakdown after gathering to where they spilled the ball.

Kicking to touch was the other option but we would have made less ground and they would have had a full restart to set up an attacking position so I think the kick in behind was the better of the two kicking options.

Had we been turned over then the All Blacks are counter attacking from just outside our 22. Dangerous.

Had we spilled then the All Blacks have a reset just outside our 22, also Dangerous.

Had we given away a penalty then the All Blacks have a line out on our 5m line which is very dangerous.

Of all the options the one I believe was least likely to result in an All Black score was moving the ball to between half way and their 10m line which is roughly where it ended up.

It left them a lot of work to get near our 22 and the effort to get there resulted in them spilling the ball.

I have absolutely no question at all in my mind that it was the right thing to do. I would be quite confident that Joe is of the same opinion - though I'd imagine he'd have looked for an extra 5 - 10m on the kick which is one of the reasons why Murray continues to be the starting Irish 9.

Buer · 21-11-2018 02:54PM

If it's the kick I'm thinking of, I'm not sure your positioning of things on the pitch is quite right there, Venjur (unless I'm misreading). McGrath kicked the ball from halfway. It landed halfway between the 10m line and the NZ 22.

prawnsambo · 21-11-2018 04:13PM

Buer wrote: »

If it's the kick I'm thinking of, I'm not sure your positioning of things on the pitch is quite right there, Venjur (unless I'm misreading). McGrath kicked the ball from halfway. It landed halfway between the 10m line and the NZ 22.

The kick was from between halfway and the ten. Barrett caight it about five metres inside his own ten. So it went about 20m.

Edit: It took NZ 16 phases to get into our 22 from there and on the 17th, Retallick knocked on, just outside our 22.

bilston · 21-11-2018 05:07PM

I'm not exaggerating when I say I've watched Stockdale's try about 30 or 40 times since Sat.

The haters can hate all they like (all 4 of them), but that was an incredible night for Irish rugby. Forget the WC, take the occasion in isolation and enjoy it for what it is. Rugby is different to other sports. These TEST matches matter...they can't be compared to football friendlies at all. Apart from anything else rugby isn't a sport where you can give anything less than 100% otherwise you get hammered or, worse, injured.

I was thinking of my grandad at the final whistle on Saturday night. He hardly missed an Ireland match in 50 years and never saw Ireland beat the All Blacks. I'd love for him to have seen it. And I'm sure I'm not alone, that's down to over a century of trying, and now we've finally done it (in Ireland) then absolutely we are going to shout it from the rooftops. I suspect most of the begrudgers are Premier League babies, are under 25 and don't really remember the "naughty nineties" of Irish rugby.

DellyBelly · 21-11-2018 05:30PM

bilston wrote: »

I'm not exaggerating when I say I've watched Stockdale's try about 30 or 40 times since Sat.

I'm the same. What I really like about it was that Jaco tried it about 5 minutes before and was blocked down but that didn't deter him from trying it again and he got his just rewards. I also love the way the rest of the team ran to celebrate with him...

prawnsambo · 21-11-2018 05:38PM

DellyBelly wrote: »

I'm the same. What I really like about it was that Jaco tried it about 5 minutes before and was blocked down but that didn't deter him from trying it again and he got his just rewards. I also love the way the rest of the team ran to celebrate with him...

It was a very special try. The minute Sexton switched to Aki and out to Stockdale, I was riveted. It was so quickly and accurately done that I knew it would have NZ stretched. The only worry I had was what sort of bounce Stockdale would get and it wasn't great as it bounced about two or three metres outside his running line. But he adjusted well and the catch was excellent.

swiwi_ · 21-11-2018 06:23PM

blackcard wrote: »

I think this was a better performance than Chicago. NZ came into this game knowing that they were playing number 2 in the world so no complacency. This was a ferocious match and Ireland were out on their feet at the end but NZ made mistakes too because of the pressure they were put under. The only negative was losing lineouts at crucial times. Fair play to the NZ team and their fans on Planet Rugby forum, absolute class in defeat. Never thought I would see the day when we beat NZ never mind beat then twice

Much like Irish fans, I don't think Kiwis mind acknowledging when we are beaten fair and square. Ireland played exceptionally well, and I think Kiwis were in admiration. Irish fans are also generally good winners, so there is not the antipathy we reserve for the English, who don't really do humble in victory.

I was in Bristol for the match, the bar I was in was mostly full of English (and a Swiss rugby team...) but I spotted one green jersey. So I just went up to to him after the match, shook his hand, said well played, and see you in the final in Japan. The guy was very sporting, obviously happy, and wished me all the best. It's one of the nice things about rugby - fiercely fought games, but good camaraderie after the match.

Yeah_Right · 21-11-2018 07:31PM

Wailin wrote: »

It's pretty embarrassing how obnoxious the Irish fans are becoming, youtube is crawling with idiots screaming we're the best team in the world and AB beaters etc. Where's the humility and dignity gone? We had a great year but lets not get carried away ffs!

Kiwi fans, media, coaches and players are scouring the internet for these videos, gifs, tweets, memes etc. We are using them to fuel our rage. Our anger. Our hate. Over the next year it will build. It will flow through us.

By the time the RWC arrives, there will a dark force rising. A blackness like the rugby world has never seen before. There will be none of this "the Paddies are a great bunch" or "We don't mind losing to the Irish" or "they're nice and their fans are good fun". We will despise you like we do the Aussies, the Saffers and the English. Well maybe not as much as the English... but you get the idea. There will be vengeance and there will be blood!!

who_me · 21-11-2018 07:58PM

bilston wrote: »

I'm not exaggerating when I say I've watched Stockdale's try about 30 or 40 times since Sat.

The haters can hate all they like (all 4 of them), but that was an incredible night for Irish rugby. Forget the WC, take the occasion in isolation and enjoy it for what it is. Rugby is different to other sports. These TEST matches matter...they can't be compared to football friendlies at all. Apart from anything else rugby isn't a sport where you can give anything less than 100% otherwise you get hammered or, worse, injured.

I was thinking of my grandad at the final whistle on Saturday night. He hardly missed an Ireland match in 50 years and never saw Ireland beat the All Blacks. I'd love for him to have seen it. And I'm sure I'm not alone, that's down to over a century of trying, and now we've finally done it (in Ireland) then absolutely we are going to shout it from the rooftops. I suspect most of the begrudgers are Premier League babies, are under 25 and don't really remember the "naughty nineties" of Irish rugby.

Just the Stockdale try? I think I've watched the entire game that many times, though fast-forwarding in bits and rewinding and replaying others like there's no tomorrow. Some bits of the video will be worn out like the money shots of VHS pornos!

The more I watch it, the better it gets. The ferocity of the hits. Contesting everything. The turnovers. The reactions to the turnovers. Contesting everything. The speed and quality of the clean-outs. The scramble defence. Contesting everything. Ireland being first to every loose ball (for a change!) The All Blacks being more rattled than I've seen them in years. (Possibly because Ireland were contesting everything, did I mention that?)

Minor highlight: at one of POM's turnovers (where he 'may have been' leaning slightly on his hands), look at the All Blacks in the same ruck - it might be Retallick and Coles? Both lying down and look out of it, one gets up onto his knees and pushes head-first - weakly - into the side of the ruck. Talk about role reversal!

Funny highlight at a ruck:
Barnes: "I'll tell you when it's out!"
[random All Blacks voice]: "..now?"
[ball is hoofed high into the stand]
Barnes: "It's out"

Cheeky highlight:
At the penalty for Sexton's high challenge, Sexton was slow to release, Coles pulls the ball from Sexton's hands and bopped him in the face with it. Nothing malicious whatsoever, but players have been carded for less than that, or at least penalties have been reversed.

Neil3030 · 21-11-2018 08:14PM

Kiwi fans have indeed been a class act since the match. I would question whether the bulk of people obnoxiously claiming Ireland are the best in the world are just AB haters from other countries trying to troll. Or worse, soccer fans.

typhoony · 21-11-2018 08:29PM

I Know the world ranking stats inform us that New Zealand and Ireland are good bit ahead of the rest but in fact I think it's a lot closer than that, I certainly think New Zealand are not as unbeatable as they were 3/4 years ago. as far as our own progression in the last 12 months we've had some close games that could have gone either way, the other teams are at our heels no doubt about it. I'm certainly not confident come 6 nations that we'll definitely beat any of the teams other than Italy.

BonnieSituation · 21-11-2018 08:37PM

who_me wrote: »

Just the Stockdale try? I think I've watched the entire game that many times, though fast-forwarding in bits and rewinding and replaying others like there's no tomorrow. Some bits of the video will be worn out like the money shots of VHS pornos!

The more I watch it, the better it gets. The ferocity of the hits. Contesting everything. The turnovers. The reactions to the turnovers. Contesting everything. The speed and quality of the clean-outs. The scramble defence. Contesting everything. Ireland being first to every loose ball (for a change!) The All Blacks being more rattled than I've seen them in years. (Possibly because Ireland were contesting everything, did I mention that?)

Minor highlight: at one of POM's turnovers (where he 'may have been' leaning slightly on his hands), look at the All Blacks in the same ruck - it might be Retallick and Coles? Both lying down and look out of it, one gets up onto his knees and pushes head-first - weakly - into the side of the ruck. Talk about role reversal!

Funny highlight at a ruck:
Barnes: "I'll tell you when it's out!"
[random All Blacks voice]: "..now?"
[ball is hoofed high into the stand]
Barnes: "It's out"

Cheeky highlight:
At the penalty for Sexton's high challenge, Sexton was slow to release, Coles pulls the ball from Sexton's hands and bopped him in the face with it. Nothing malicious whatsoever, but players have been carded for less than that, or at least penalties have been reversed.

Great post.

Watched it back on Sunday. The whole of the coverage. But the bit in bold was something that stuck out. Larfed heartily.

The ref mic was great for picking up the odd thing like say, Rory shouting at Johnny.

The more I think back, as bilston and the rest of you have alluded to, it really was a.remarkable game.from both sides. But we really were astonishingly good. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying that.

Dubinusa · 21-11-2018 10:48PM

I've watched it 7 times. The fitness levels are thru the roof. Both sides put it all out there.
Our center defense was a masterclass. Ringrose is just exceptional and his partnership with Aki was incredible. They both stepped up and where flawless.
Beauden Barrett is an exceptional player. Everytime he touched the ball, I held my breath. He's just extraordinary.
I have no clue as to why our line out looked so awful when Cronin came on. I know Toner was gone, but there should be no excuse.

21-11-2018 10:51PM

Donal Lenihan really enjoyed that game of rugby.

errlloyd · 21-11-2018 11:23PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Donal Lenihan really enjoyed that game of rugby.

If you watch the rte coverage on YouTube at double speed him and high sound hilarious.

Billy86 · 21-11-2018 11:50PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I just realised, the next time we lose a game this place is going to be an absolute shít show.

The amount of people who are angry that other people are happy about a big result is startling. McKenna said it in the first 10 seconds of his interview on against the head. "What we've been subjected to since the weekend" - it's the language of someone who had a grudge to begin with and he's far from alone.

People are awful precious about themselves.

That attitude can also play a really negative effect on the teams mentality too I would imagine,and on the psyche of young Irish athletes in general feeling they have to constantly "just be happy to be here" rather than aiming for the highest highs, and celebrating accordingly.

I've soured on Conor McGregor a lot in the last two years or so, but he deserves credit for not buying into that for a second, and the younger rugby lads are looking similar - Furlong, Ryan, Stockdale, Larmour, Leavy etc. Yes some of the older heads have it too, but it's almost uniform among the younger guys. They showed it more than ever the other day and are in no way cocky but have this "f*** you, I don't care than you're NZ with your Haka, mystique, back to back WCs, all time greats and on and on... we came to win, we are going to win, and we're going to do it our way" mentality that is just incredible to see.

Long may it continue, and long may the pathetic naysayers wallow in relative obscurity and silence.

Steve · 21-11-2018 11:53PM

Billy86 wrote: »

That attitude can also play a really negative effect on the teams mentality too I would imagine,and on the psyche of young Irish athletes in general feeling they have to constantly "just be happy to be here" rather than aiming for the highest highs, and celebrating accordingly.

I've soured on Conor McGregor a lot in the last two years or so, but he deserves credit for not buying into that for a second, and the younger rugby lads are looking similar - Furlong, Ryan, Stockdale, Larmour, Leavy etc. Yes some of the older heads have it too, but it's almost uniform among the younger guys. They showed it more than ever the other day and are in no way cocky but have this "f*** you, I don't care than you're NZ with your Haka, mystique, back to back WCs, all time greats and on and on... we came to win, we are going to win, and we're going to do it our way" mentality that is just incredible to see.

Long may it continue, and long may the pathetic naysayers wallow in relative obscurity and silence.

Well said.

DellyBelly · 21-11-2018 11:55PM

Dubinusa wrote: »

I've watched it 7 times. The fitness levels are thru the roof. Both sides put it all out there.
Our center defense was a masterclass. Ringrose is just exceptional and his partnership with Aki was incredible. They both stepped up and where flawless.
Beauden Barrett is an exceptional player. Everytime he touched the ball, I held my breath. He's just extraordinary.
I have no clue as to why our line out looked so awful when Cronin came on. I know Toner was gone, but there should be no excuse.

Tones not there at the time can used as an excuse for Crons poor lineouts but it's not all down to that. Besty is really needed at no 2. His age is a concern though

Squidgy Black · 22-11-2018 12:01AM

DellyBelly wrote: »

Tones not there at the time can used as an excuse for Crons poor lineouts but it's not all down to that. Besty is really needed at no 2. His age is a concern though

Please stop with the made-up cringe-worthy nicknames.

Steve · 22-11-2018 12:13AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Please stop with the made-up cringe-worthy nicknames.

In fact, I'm going to talk to the mods about a rule for this.

It's ridiculs - or should that be ridiculsy?? Or is the tones of my postey not making sensey? well hatesey that...

Former Former · 22-11-2018 12:20AM

Dubinusa wrote: »

I have no clue as to why our line out looked so awful when Cronin came on. I know Toner was gone, but there should be no excuse.

This is something I've looked at a couple of times too. We lost two lineouts with Cronin on the pitch, but don't forget we'd also lost POM as well as Toner.

The first one went to Jordi Murphy in the middle. Murphy isn't bad in the lineout but jumping against Sam Whitelock? He must be giving up six inches there. And you can see that NZ have it sussed, they don't make any effort to get Retallick in the air, only Whitelock. They knew where it was going, maybe because it was exactly the same call as our previous lineout, so once they saw the way we lined up, they knew who to target.

The second lost lineout, the Barnhall Under 9s could have predicted where it was going, the body language of the Irish forwards screamed that it was going to Henderson and this time Retallick was out in front of Henderson because they read us like a book.

That's not to say Cronin's throws were good but it's definitely a systems weakness we have. We also have a problem in that Ryan is not a viable lineout target for whatever reason, nor is Stander, so our options are always limited.

Watching it back, a stat flashed up on the RTE coverage as Cronin is shaping to throw his first lineout, that Ireland were 10/0 on their own throw. Cronin then proceeds to lose two and eventually gets his third for a final stat of 11 won/2 lost which is repeated on ESPN stats. Fair enough.

But we know that we lost a lineout with Best (and Toner and POM) still on the field; remember Ringrose's grubber which ended with Kearney pushing Barrett into touch? A five-metre attacking lineout wasted and we definitely weren't 10/0 when Cronin arrived.

So what's the point? That the stats aren't always accurate and that our lineout issues go beyond the thrower. The first one doesn't matter, but we need to get a handle on the second.

errlloyd · 22-11-2018 01:03AM

On stats. I noticed they don't count advantage that doesn't become a penalty as a penalty. So for example, Ireland had two in the first half, but three if you include the barret drop goal. Weird.

DellyBelly · 22-11-2018 07:58AM

Steve wrote: »

In fact, I'm going to talk to the mods about a rule for this.

It's ridiculs - or should that be ridiculsy?? Or is the tones of my postey not making sensey? well hatesey that...

It's what the players call each other so why not us. I often here the players saying Earlset and Besty

Try_harder · 22-11-2018 08:00AM

DellyBelly wrote: »

It's what the players call each other so why not us. I often here the players saying Earlset and Besty

You are not their team mate tho

DellyBelly · 22-11-2018 08:13AM

Try_harder wrote: »

You are not their team mate tho

Maybe not but I feel I know them well.

Try_harder · 22-11-2018 08:18AM

DellyBelly wrote: »

Maybe not but I feel I know them well.

I hope you are joking

DellyBelly · 22-11-2018 08:30AM

Try_harder wrote: »

I hope you are joking

Well they do use the slogan the team of us

Anyway enough of this. Looking forward to the game on Saturday now

prawnsambo · 22-11-2018 09:42AM

Former Former wrote: »

So what's the point? That the stats aren't always accurate and that our lineout issues go beyond the thrower. The first one doesn't matter, but we need to get a handle on the second.

We had very similar problems against Argentina. They were getting their jumpers up in front of ours and it resulted in three lost and one messed up. We are either easy to read or we're using the same configurations too much. One of them was just not getting our jumper (Ryan) up quick enough. A lot of things need fixing there.

Ireland v New Zealand match thread

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