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Whistleblower: Maurice McCabe

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    #752
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Edward M wrote: »
    5 million is the figure being bandied about this morning that McCabe is to be offered.
    Would be a good settlement now.

    And I'd argue that a proportion of that should come directly from Callinan's personal funds, as the named individual responsible for defaming McCabe. Not just an office or organisation, the individual himself. That might go some way towards scaring the sh!t out of any other douchebag who's contemplating doing anything similar - as it stands right now, the message to douchebags in power is "get caught being a douchebag, face no consequences other than reputational damage". It's not good enough.


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    #753
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    I would like to see a public statement of apology from AGS to Maurice McCabe.


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    #754
    dulpit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    And I'd argue that a proportion of that should come directly from Callinan's personal funds, as the named individual responsible for defaming McCabe. Not just an office or organisation, the individual himself. That might go some way towards scaring the sh!t out of any other douchebag who's contemplating doing anything similar - as it stands right now, the message to douchebags in power is "get caught being a douchebag, face no consequences other than reputational damage". It's not good enough.
    I heard somewhere last week that McCabe didn't sue Callinan directly, as it would likely result in him getting €0, at least the state will pay his award..


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    #755
    rob316
    Registered Users Posts: 17,997 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    It's about half a million a year for every year his name and his family's was smeared. It's not alot when you look at it like that. He lost 10 years of his life due to doing the right thing.

    Money is of little healing for him, I'm sure he'd have loved going about his business quietly as a Sergeant.

    I'd have bottled it if I was him, tremendous bravery.


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    #756
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,509 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    dulpit wrote: »
    I heard somewhere last week that McCabe didn't sue Callinan directly, as it would likely result in him getting €0, at least the state will pay his award..

    First rule of suing. Follow the money.

    Seriously though, as much as we might like to see Callinan in bother I would advise caution.

    It is essential to the operation of public services that the State underwrite damages in cases like this.

    Unless we want everyone in authority to close down on making any decision about any issue the State must be prepared to be the ultimate guarantor.


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    #757
    rob316
    Registered Users Posts: 17,997 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    elperello wrote: »
    First rule of suing. Follow the money.

    Seriously though, as much as we might like to see Callinan in bother I would advise caution.

    It is essential to the operation of public services that the State underwrite damages in cases like this.

    Unless we want everyone in authority to close down on making any decision about any issue the State must be prepared to be the ultimate guarantor.

    He has to be face some sort of financial penalty though. But he won't I know


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    #758
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    elperello wrote: »
    First rule of suing. Follow the money.

    Seriously though, as much as we might like to see Callinan in bother I would advise caution.

    It is essential to the operation of public services that the State underwrite damages in cases like this.

    Unless we want everyone in authority to close down on making any decision about any issue the State must be prepared to be the ultimate guarantor.

    Caution against what ?

    The point the person is making is that Callinan should also be held personally accountable. You just dont get to resign having been caught by the bollox. There has been a case here that the state was required to defend. It resulted in tribunals and serious cases of wrong doing. Allowing such abuse of power without personal accountability would be a dangerous precedent to make.

    Accountability lies with Callinan in the first instance. Now what is the punishment ?


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    #759
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,509 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    rob316 wrote: »
    He has to be face some sort of financial penalty though. But he won't I know

    I would prefer to focus on the injured party. It is important that they get justice when wronged by a public servant.

    They shouldn't need to rely on the financial resources of a State employee to get a fair settlement.

    Let the criminal justice system take it's course.


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    #760
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There a lot to praise McCabe for in terms of his bravery and resilience. You can pick any one aspect and stand back in admiration.
    Just imagine even one guard challenging a culture that went back decades of cancelling speeding fines or more recently, cancelling penalty points for friends and relations etc- probably seen as a “perk of the job”That in itself takes some balls- he was absolutely right to do it. And I’d say that eigit Callannan knew he was right and was secretly kicking himself for being shown up in public.
    His ego got the better of him- Disgusting!!!!! :P


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    #761
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,509 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    STB. wrote: »
    Caution against what ?

    The point the person is making is that Callinan should also be held personally accountable. You just dont get to resign having been caught by the bollox. There has been a case here that the state was required to defend. It resulted in tribunals and serious cases of wrong doing. Allowing such abuse of power without personal accountability would be a dangerous precedent to make.

    Accountability lies with Callinan in the first instance. Now what is the punishment ?

    Caution against tying the fate of the plaintiff to the financial standing of a State employee.

    As regards punishment let the law take it's course.


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    #762
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,293 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    elperello wrote: »
    Caution against tying the fate of the plaintiff to the financial standing of a State employee.

    As regards punishment let the law take it's course.

    Fair enough, you can't have a situation where McCabe depends on callinan personal wealth to compensate him however in a case where the state employee acted knowingly and fraudulently outside the powers of the job held, all pension payments over and above the basic state pension rate should be open to claw back until any costs to the state as recovered.
    Chance of this happening: zero.


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    #763
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,509 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    mickdw wrote: »
    Fair enough, you can't have a situation where McCabe depends on callinan personal wealth to compensate him however in a case where the state employee acted knowingly and fraudulently outside the powers of the job held, all pension payments over and above the basic state pension rate should be open to claw back until any costs to the state as recovered.
    Chance of this happening: zero.

    You are probably right that there is little chance of this happening.

    Legislation would be needed and proof would be difficult.


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    #764
    CucaFace
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭CucaFace


    What sickened me was the part where the Guards in the pub had the stuffed rat and were making comments about him being ' rat ba##ard' ect ect.


    That's what dirty criminal scum bags say about each other and also when they try to intimidate others to not go to the garda with information, this shows that they are no different really. Garda already have a problem getting people to give them information, how does this make them look now?

    Each and everyone of those who could be identified should be named and removed from the force.

    Our police force are a disgrace on so many levels....


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    #765
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    And I'd argue that a proportion of that should come directly from Callinan's personal funds, as the named individual responsible for defaming McCabe.

    Not a single cent will be deducted from Callinan's personal funds, pension etc. He's away scott free.

    We don't do accountability in this Country.


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    #766
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Not going to come from Callinans money.what if his defence is "my information on Mc Cabe came from a Superintendant close to McCabe or from the Press Officer who was briefed by someone else". He heard it in "good faith" from a trusted source so to speak.
    Shyt always flows downhill so I could only envisage a junior rank ending up with any blame.

    Waste of time to sue Callinan imo.


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    #767
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    It looks like Callinan was a bully and a thoroughly nasty individual. To smear a man's name for merely highlighting malpractice proves that Callinan was wholly unsuited to be Garda Commissioner. When the head of an organisation demonises someone for highlighting malpractice what message does that send to others. Callinan has damaged the office of Garda Commissioner and in a most malicious fashion bullied a member of the organisation he himself was head of and has cost the taxpayer millions in redress payments for his heinous actions. A man is entitled his good name and Callinan bent over backwards to, without cause, take it away from someone. It is right that the state makes sure that a state employee is appropriately compensated for being the victim of gross misconduct. Yes in an ideal world Callinan should have to sell his house and shirt off his back and should be stripped of his pension but this is Ireland where only the little people pay for misdemeanours.
    Callinan's name is destroyed and that probably is as good as it's going to get. Personally if I saw him I would kick him in the balls as hard as I could. I hate the man. He is an odious repulsive bastard who deserves to rot in hell.


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    #768
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Not going to come from Callinans money.what if his defence is "my information on Mc Cabe came from a Superintendant close to McCabe or from the Press Officer who was briefed by someone else". He heard it in "good faith" from a trusted source so to speak.
    Shyt always flows downhill so I could only envisage a junior rank ending up with any blame.

    Waste of time to sue Callinan imo.


    Not if the state wont cover Callinans legal fees. Even if McCabe never received a penny from Callinan the legal fees alone would do serious damage to Callinan.


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    #769
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Not if the state wont cover Callinans legal fees. Even if McCabe never received a penny from Callinan the legal fees alone would do serious damage to Callinan.

    Can't see that happening either.
    He would claim he was acting as an agent of the state and that the information he "received" on Mc Cabe was supplied to him from a junior officer. He would say he was led to believe it was all true. Plus there was a complaint made by Miss D to back up his claim.


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    #770
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Can't see that happening either.
    He would claim he was acting as an agent of the state and that the information he "received" on Mc Cabe was supplied to him from a junior officer. He would say he was led to believe it was all true. Plus there was a complaint made by Miss D to back up his claim.


    except none of the things he did were consistent with his role. When you are acting ultra vires as he was you cannot depend on the state to back you up.


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    #771
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    except none of the things he did were consistent with his role. When you are acting ultra vires as he was you cannot depend on the state to back you up.

    Was it not more intra vires though from his PoV?


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    #772
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Was it not more intra vires though?


    I dont think trying to tarnish the good name of one of your officers is a normal part of the office of commissioner on An Garda Siochana.


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    #773
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I dont think trying to tarnish the good name of one of your officers is a normal part of the office of commissioner on An Garda Siochana.

    I know it isn't.
    However he's not going to say he did it on purpose.
    He's going to say his evidence was based on information supplied to him of course in good faith.
    He'll be well prepared by his defence too.
    Would love if you were right but I can't see it happening.


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    #774
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    bubblypop wrote: »
    And, what was that exactly?
    I mean people seem to jump on the hero bandwagon a bit too eagerly.
    Yes the man had a hard time, his superiors treated him badly.
    But what did he do to make him a hero?

    He told the world that superintendents were cancelling tickets for friends & acquaintances, but why would the whole country think that made him a hero? Since when did the majority of public think tickets were so important? The amount of posts I see in here where people complain about gardai doing check points or seizing vehicles etc.....

    Yes, it was right to show wrong doing, there should have been a better reaction by garda management. But, a hero? Seems a bit much.

    While you are entitled to your opinion, anyone who watched the two part programme would have to be impressed by him. This man is a hero. This man sought to shine a light on incompetence when he saw it in an Garda Siochana. How was he thanked? The head of the Garda Siochana sought to destroy him and in the most heinous way possible. He was shunned by his colleagues. He kept going despite every obstacle being put in his way. If Drew Harris is worth anything, we will have a better police force because of the light shone on malpractice by Maurice McCabe.
    Given what he was put through he came across as dignified, restrained in tone and possessed of a steely determination to improve standards in AGS and to clear his name. Great credit due to his wife and John McGuinness.


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    #775
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,039 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    holyhead wrote: »
    It looks like Callinan was a bully and a thoroughly nasty individual. To smear a man's name for merely highlighting malpractice proves that Callinan was wholly unsuited to be Garda Commissioner. When the head of an organisation demonises someone for highlighting malpractice what message does that send to others. Callinan has damaged the office of Garda Commissioner and in a most malicious fashion bullied a member of the organisation he himself was head of and has cost the taxpayer millions in redress payments for his heinous actions. A man is entitled his good name and Callinan bent over backwards to, without cause, take it away from someone. It is right that the state makes sure that a state employee is appropriately compensated for being the victim of gross misconduct. Yes in an ideal world Callinan should have to sell his house and shirt off his back and should be stripped of his pension but this is Ireland where only the little people pay for misdemeanours.
    Callinan's name is destroyed and that probably is as good as it's going to get. Personally if I saw him I would kick him in the balls as hard as I could. I hate the man. He is an odious repulsive bastard who deserves to rot in hell.




    ............as will be known in the fullness of time, take it away from quite a few people.


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    #776
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,617 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Can't see that happening either.
    He would claim he was acting as an agent of the state and that the information he "received" on Mc Cabe was supplied to him from a junior officer. He would say he was led to believe it was all true. Plus there was a complaint made by Miss D to back up his claim.

    tayto McCabe was cleared of the Ms.D allegations by the DPP in 2008, the Garda file on the alleged incident said as much. That should have been the end of it but Callinan then evolved that 2008 dismissed allegation of sexual assault into telling John McGuinness TD that McCabe fiddles with his own kids in 2014, a full six years later. None of McCabes children have alleged anything of the sort so this was clearly Callinan out to destroy McCabes character. The defence that he got this information as an agent of the state wont stand up to scrutiny because it was a complete fabrication in the first place. If he did want to use that defence in a civil case then he will be asked to produce the junior Gardai he claims told him. It would be lies on top of other lies.


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    #777
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,089 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    I would like to see a public statement of apology from AGS to Maurice McCabe.
    Why? McCabe and his family were apologised to by the current commissioner and McCabe apparently accepted it.
    What is the need for AGS to publicly make the apology?


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    #778
    Auguste Comte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Auguste Comte


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Mrsmum wrote: »
    I would like to see a public statement of apology from AGS to Maurice McCabe.
    Why? McCabe and his family were apologised to by the current commissioner and McCabe apparently accepted it.
    What is the need for AGS to publicly make the apology?
    In fareness they should apologise to the public for what went on and the money it is going to cost them.


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    #779
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Why? McCabe and his family were apologised to by the current commissioner and McCabe apparently accepted it.
    What is the need for AGS to publicly make the apology?

    Well I suppose whenever any Taoiseach apologised to a person or group he would have apologised in person but also then apologise on the record in the Dáil. I think Drew Harris having a private chat with M McCabe and saying a private sorry to him does not have the same gravitas to it as a formal statement. Imo it would be good for all members of AGS, especially M McCabe's enemies within the force, to hear that apology too and understand what it means so they can no longer be muttering under their breath about him.


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    #780
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    tayto McCabe was cleared of the Ms.D allegations by the DPP in 2008, the Garda file on the alleged incident said as much. That should have been the end of it but Callinan then evolved that 2008 dismissed allegation of sexual assault into telling John McGuinness TD that McCabe fiddles with his own kids in 2014, a full six years later. None of McCabes children have alleged anything of the sort so this was clearly Callinan out to destroy McCabes character. The defence that he got this information as an agent of the state wont stand up to scrutiny because it was a complete fabrication in the first place. If he did want to use that defence in a civil case then he will be asked to produce the junior Gardai he claims told him. It would be lies on top of other lies.

    Your sequence of events omits Tusla. The original allegation was dismissed by AGS / DPP. It was only when the child was getting counselling in her teens that the allegations were resurrected and we had the GUBU situation where, allegedly, cut and paste errors were made. Tusla, not AGS then opened files on McCabes kids.

    If I was Callinan's counsel I would be telling him to beat the drum for the wonderful work of AGS and asking what could a fella do in the light of what Tusla had reported but question McCabe's integrity and motives.

    Of course we can all have suspicions as to why Tusla made such egregious errors but unless someone in Tusla admits something, Callinan is bombproof in my opinion. He can legitimately state that his information was based on investigations carried out by Tusla.


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    #781
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    Your sequence of events omits Tusla. The original allegation was dismissed by AGS / DPP. It was only when the child was getting counselling in her teens that the allegations were resurrected and we had the GUBU situation where, allegedly, cut and paste errors were made. Tusla, not AGS then opened files on McCabes kids.

    If I was Callinan's counsel I would be telling him to beat the drum for the wonderful work of AGS and asking what could a fella do in the light of what Tusla had reported but question McCabe's integrity and motives.

    Of course we can all have suspicions as to why Tusla made such egregious errors but unless someone in Tusla admits something, Callinan is bombproof in my opinion. He can legitimately state that his information was based on investigations carried out by Tusla.


    what is the justification for repeating the allegation to people not in AGS?


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