Renting is the only business?

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 10:18PM #1

How do people run a business in Ireland? Or perhaps more to the point, how do people start a business in Ireland today?

I was talking with a friend of a friend the other day and they had to move premises (having been there for 12 years) because the rent was increased.

It boggles my mind, if an established business cant make ends meet in a location, just who exactly is going to be able to get a new business off the ground with even higher costs?

Near where I live there are a few businesses and it is always the same buildings/premises that are being vacated, a neverending stream of failed enterprise.

It seems like the only solid business "idea" in this country is renting out to other businesses! Add in the increasing rates and general costs...how can this last?

Its not exactly cheap to start a business, so the sheer amount of money being wasted must be astronomical.

Is it possible to start a business in this day and age anymore?

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 10:31PM

Heres an example I just got from daft

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/commercial-property-for-rent/retail-units-for-rent/82-shantalla-road-beaumont-dublin-577794/

30k a year, just for rent. Shantalla road is hardly one of europes busiest boulevards!

As someone who has never run a business maybe this comes across as naïve. But before you make a profit, you are going to have to pay 30k rent. Lets say you employ 2 staff at minimum wage, that's another 30k plus, rates of god knows what, plus all the incidentals for the actual business, inventory etc.

At a very rough guess, you're going to have to make 70 to 100 grand a year, just to break even, to not make a cent.

I just don't get it. What kind of business could you put in that premises that would make a living wage?

How are any businesses open at all, or is it simply the difference between owning the premises and renting it?

wandererz · 16-11-2018 10:39PM

It is ridiculous alright.
15 years ago i enquired about a place in Stephens Green shopping centre that was a candle shop. It had a small mezzanine floor as well. They wanted 180K+/year.
I shudder to think what they're charging now.

A place around the corner down a side street off Grafton street wanted €150K. Last i saw, it was a Muji store i think.

JuanBerrosa · 16-11-2018 10:48PM

Thats why in areas like Grafton Street - where rent I heard was about 70k a MONTH!! - only big internationals can afford it, so why you have Grafton Street looking the same as Oxford st, P. De Gracia, Champs Elysses etc.

Globalised crap.

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 10:54PM

wandererz wrote: »

It is ridiculous alright.
15 years ago i enquired about a place in Stephens Green shopping centre that was a candle shop. It had a small mezzanine floor as well. They wanted 180K+/year.
I shudder to think what they're charging now.

A place around the corner down a side street off Grafton street wanted €150K. Last i saw, it was a Muji store i think.

Jeeeeesus! 180k a year, and the place was selling candles?

Candles?!

Theres a place that sells only hats in the stephens green, so the idea that they could be paying 100K plus in rent.....

I just cant get my hear around it, its mathematically impossible!

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 10:56PM

JuanBerrosa wrote: »

Thats why in areas like Grafton Street - where rent I heard was about 70k a MONTH!! - only big internationals can afford it, so why you have Grafton Street looking the same as Oxford st, P. De Gracia, Champs Elysses etc.

Globalised crap.

I can kinda understand the busiest streets having exorbitant rent, but then you spy a little newsagent tucked in on grafton street, and youre left scratching your head?!

How is anyone making a go of it in Dublin at all? Or is just people clinging to dear life on decades old contracts?

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 11:02PM

my initial inclination seems to be correct. Renting out business space is the only sensible business.

They must be laughing all the way to the bank, all the way back home, all the way through dinner, all the way through story time, laughing in their sleep.

Why bother to create an idea when you can let others pay you shedfuls of money for doing nothing??

16-11-2018 11:04PM

This country will be in a very different state in 2 years. Pretend it is 2005/6 and prepare for the worst.

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 11:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This country will be in a very different state in 2 years. Pretend it is 2005/6 and prepare for the worst.

That's what me and the other bloke who owns a business were talking about, the idea of never-ending rent increases for one failed business after another is cuckoo land economics.

Its the greater-fool game all over again, just like home ownership.

Very, very soon, this game of musical chairs will stop and there'll be a whole load of people left standing with crippling debt.

Again!

16-11-2018 11:15PM

mammajamma wrote: »

That's what me and the other bloke who owns a business were talking about, the idea of never-ending rent increases for one failed business after another is cuckoo land economics.

Its the greater-fool game all over again, just like home ownership.

Very, very soon, this game of musical chairs will stop and there'll be a whole load of people left standing with crippling debt.

Again!

Precisely. Even since the start of 2018 it has went from seeming a theoretical possibility to seeming inevitable, and everyone is talking about it. It's only the media are pro this government that they don't communicate the reality to the population more strongly than they do. If Fianna Fail were in power now there would be endless criticism about how the same mistakes are being made again.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-11-2018 11:24PM

The old truism is that Irish money goes into land or property.

Isn't that (IMHO) sleeveen Gallagher's company in the High Court against Nokia ?

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 11:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Precisely. Even since the start of 2018 it has went from seeming a theoretical possibility to seeming inevitable, and everyone is talking about it. It's only the media are pro this government that they don't communicate the reality to the population more strongly than they do. If Fianna Fail were in power now there would be endless criticism about how the same mistakes are being made again.

Its gas, isn't it? Just how out of touch the media is when it comes to the very people of the country!

To be fair though, fianna fail would get away with it just as much as the current shower. The political classes in this country have NO ideas.

None.

We are a country whos over-priced economy is based entirely on the cost of property. Bubble-land!

The fact that we have slipped from one property bubble immediately (immediately!) into another property bubble tells you everything you need to know. We're a rudderless ship.

There'll be no bail outs this time.

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 11:29PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The old truism is that Irish money goes into land or property.

Isn't that (IMHO) sleeveen Gallagher's company in the High Court against Nokia ?

Definitely truth in that going back in time.

Its like we've managed to put on this gigantic charade for the rest of the world (and ourselves), that we have this booming economy. But at the end of the day, if you take property out of the equation, we're just a tiny country with great agriculture.

Its the whole pretend thing that's destroying us, if we could only be comfortable as we are instead of something we aren't (namely, a huge, powerful country)

Filmer Paradise · 16-11-2018 11:41PM

I get your point OP.

People who actually make stuff, do stuff, or make stuff happen, are always second best to cute hoors who can 'work their heads' or 'pull a stroke'.

It just permeates every strata of Irish society.

Ask any parent what they want their kid to do when they leave school.

Apprenticeship or some pointless College Degree in 'Uni'?

Uni wins every time.

Working with your hands & doing something useful makes you a second class object to be used & abused.

The real arses though, join the Legal Profession & learn how to truly rob the public!

wandererz · 16-11-2018 11:43PM

A lot (if not all) of this has been fuelled by the concept of "Upward only rent reviews".

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 11:50PM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

I get your point OP.

People who actually make stuff, do stuff, or make stuff happen, are always second best to cute hoors who can 'work their heads' or 'pull a stroke'.

It just permeates every strata of Irish society.

Ask any parent what they want their kid to do when they leave school.

Apprenticeship or some pointless College Degree in 'Uni'?

Uni wins every time.

Working with your hands & doing something useful makes you a second class object to be used & abused.

The real arses though, join the Legal Profession & learn how to truly rob the public!

You know what, I would almost expect that to happen in any economy, cute hoors getting paid off the backs of the people actually producing.

But this economy right now (and for the last 20 years) is the above, only on rocket fuel.

Its not even a case of robbing workers and those with ideas, its practically ground to a halt. I just cant see how a business can get started in the first place.

So who is going to pay these rents from her on out? Nobody, is the answer.

The next question is what will happen when productivity stops?

The answer is a firesale type of disaster.

Madness, tripping from one recession right into another without even taking a breather. Heads will roll in this next one, they fobbed it off by the skin of their teeth last time, but not a second time.

weemcd · 16-11-2018 11:52PM

I often wonder how much illegitimate money is laundered through seemingly legitimate businesses. I've frequently seen very high end looking stores, one piano shop in particular, that never seemed to have anyone in it, and wondered how they were able to stay afloat, as it didn't make sense to me (this was in Belfast, so different situation, and the shop is closed now tbf, but I can think of many others.)

Can anyone shed a bit more light on this?

mammajamma · 16-11-2018 11:57PM

weemcd wrote: »

I often wonder how much illegitimate money is laundered through seemingly legitimate businesses. I've frequently seen very high end looking stores, one piano shop in particular, that never seemed to have anyone in it, and wondered how they were able to stay afloat, as it didn't make sense to me (this was in Belfast, so different situation, and the shop is closed now tbf, but I can think of many others.)

Can anyone shed a bit more light on this?

They just have to own the building. Its the only explanation for being able to sustain an extremely low footfall. I know exactly what you mean, places that are empty day in and day out, yet there for years.

And depending on the footfall, I'd say it highly unlikely that its down to money-laundering. In your example of the pianos, theres only so many they can pretend to sell in a year for tax.

"we sold 2000 pianos this year!"

On the otherhand, all those dodgy gambling places? 100% it is based on money-laundering.

road_high · 16-11-2018 11:58PM

Thing is, even during the worst of the recession prices didn’t fall by actually “that” much. Numerous landlords prefer and still do prefer leave premises empty than let it out at Anything below the extortion they expect.
If rents fell appropriately I’ve no doubt we wouldn’t have so many dying town centres. People do the figures and see it’s not viable which is a big lost opportunity to the economy generally

mammajamma · 17-11-2018 12:05AM

road_high wrote: »

Thing is, even during the worst of the recession prices didn’t fall by actually “that” much. Numerous landlords prefer and still do prefer leave premises empty than let it out at Anything below the extortion they expect.
If rents fell appropriately I’ve no doubt we wouldn’t have so many dying town centres. People do the figures and see it’s not viable which is a big lost opportunity to the economy generally

That's exactly it, it just does not compute.

As for people leaving places empty, when our new friends leggit once the economy tanks, freeing up tons of premises and property, we will have some very serious thinking and planning to do for the future as a country.

Once is a shame, twice is a bad joke. Three times??? Radical changes are coming this time.

KungPao · 17-11-2018 12:19AM

Some people here...on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide.

It’ll be a soft landing this time, ahoy. Be grand.

pauldavis123 · 17-11-2018 01:07AM

There is hardly an empty shop in Dublin city centre.

There are retailers making huge money.

Renting is not that good for a new build.

1.4 million in rent for 25 million is not great!

30k for that shop that will be open 7 am to 12 am is €5 an hour in rent.

If you can't make money from that you must be useless ;-D

mammajamma · 17-11-2018 01:12AM

pauldavis123 wrote: »

There is hardly an empty shop in Dublin city centre.

There are retailers making huge money.

Renting is not that good for a new build.

1.4 million in rent for 25 million is not great!

30k for that shop that will be open 7 am to 12 am is €5 an hour in rent.

If you can't make money from that you must be useless ;-D

I cant tell if youre being sarcastic or not :P

pauldavis123 · 17-11-2018 01:14AM

mammajamma wrote: »

I cant tell if youre being sarcastic or not :P

All true:

Forgot the link:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/pre-let-dublin-2-building-on-the-market-for-25-5m-1.3655656

Mrs OBumble · 17-11-2018 01:35AM

Shop fitters must also be making a killing.

dxhound2005 · 17-11-2018 01:57AM

mammajamma wrote: »

How do people run a business in Ireland? Or perhaps more to the point, how do people start a business in Ireland today?

I was talking with a friend of a friend the other day and they had to move premises (having been there for 12 years) because the rent was increased.

It boggles my mind, if an established business cant make ends meet in a location, just who exactly is going to be able to get a new business off the ground with even higher costs?

Near where I live there are a few businesses and it is always the same buildings/premises that are being vacated, a neverending stream of failed enterprise.

It seems like the only solid business "idea" in this country is renting out to other businesses! Add in the increasing rates and general costs...how can this last?

Its not exactly cheap to start a business, so the sheer amount of money being wasted must be astronomical.

Is it possible to start a business in this day and age anymore?

Not exactly cheap is a bit vague. How much is it? The cost does not seem to have put off the people setting up thousands of new companies.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/more-than-60-companies-formed-every-day-in-irish-economy-1.3451975

https://www.vision-net.ie/Business-Barometer/Gazette-New-Companies/

kneemos · 17-11-2018 02:43AM

It's surprising what an even a moderately busy shop can make,but retail is screwed anyway. Even the big chain stores are closing shops in the UK. Towns and villages around Ireland are half boarded up,those that are open are mainly owner occupiers.

17-11-2018 03:30AM

It's only one type of business. Perhaps look at some import stuff to supply the shops, or create an online business.

Irish Praetorian · 17-11-2018 03:49AM

Is the solution perhaps to build upwards? It always strikes me just how low Dublin's skyline is, perhaps the solution is to start building up (or down) more?

Captain Red Beard · 17-11-2018 03:50AM

As it stands the only businesses that can afford city centre rents are Vodafone, eir, dalez, Paddy power, Supermacs etc. That is the future of town centres, everywhere the same.

whisky_galore · 17-11-2018 05:47AM

Captain Red Beard wrote: »

As it stands the only businesses that can afford city centre rents are Vodafone, eir, dalez, Paddy power, Supermacs etc. That is the future of town centres, everywhere the same.

Paddy power (and their ilk) outlets turn towns into wastelands. They do nothing to add to a place, bar employ a very small handful of people.

Renting is the only business?

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