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Ruth Coppinger holds up thong in Dail

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Comments

  • #542
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    I’m not sure you grasp that a woman is raped from the moment someone inserts part of himself into her without consent, and whether she was wearing crotchless knickers or a full on Chastity belt has nothing to do with it.

    Raping a woman wearing a chastity belt would be some achievement in fairness. I would have to acquit on that evidence, if it's not banned in future.


  • #543
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    professore wrote: »
    Raping a woman wearing a chastity belt would be some achievement in fairness. I would have to acquit on that evidence, if it's not banned in future.
    You think raping someone’s a joke yeah?


  • #544
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    professore wrote: »

    The people most discouraging of women reporting rape are the blue haired feminists, and spreading lies about lenient sentencing.
    Do you think that maybe conviction rates of 2% of reported rapes might be a factor in discouraging reporting rape?


  • #545
    nullzero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,904 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    You think raping someone’s a joke yeah?

    Jesus that's a terrible attempt at discussion.

    The thanks will pour in no doubt.

    Glazers Out!



  • #546
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Do you think that maybe conviction rates of 2% of reported rapes might be a factor in discouraging reporting rape?

    2%? Where are you getting that from??


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  • #547
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    You think raping someone’s a joke yeah?

    You brought up the joke of being raped with a chastity belt on which is clearly impossible.


  • #548
    nullzero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,904 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    professore wrote: »
    You brought up the joke of being raped with a chastity belt on which is clearly impossible.

    I think you are owed an apology for that. Talk about putting words in somebody's mouth.

    Glazers Out!



  • #549
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    nullzero wrote: »
    Jesus that's a terrible attempt at discussion.

    People like that aren't interested in discussion. They think they are 100% right about everything and want to shut down and destroy anyone who disagrees with them.

    I've repeatedly said rape is deplorable and I back stiff sentences for rapists. I would also back some better system for cross examining rape victims, perhaps one to one via video link. However censoring that cross examination would not be something I would support.

    Personally I don't think her underwear was relevant either but the barrister thought it would play well with the jury. All sorts of "irrelevant" evidence is routinely used, like the whatsapp messages in the recent rugby trial. No one was protesting that.

    Its up to the judge to stop the prosecution badgering the witness in this way.


  • #550
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭limnam


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    You think raping someone’s a joke yeah?




    You're out of your element Donny.


  • #551
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,469 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    You think raping someone’s a joke yeah?

    That is far from what was said and you are bang out of order.


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  • #552
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    professore wrote: »
    2%? Where are you getting that from??


    From Northern Ireland;




    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/north-s-justice-system-failing-sexual-violence-victims-report-finds-1.3696246


  • #553
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    From Northern Ireland;




    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/north-s-justice-system-failing-sexual-violence-victims-report-finds-1.3696246

    That's not the Republic. The religious Conservative culture up there is a big factor. The lowest figure I could find was 19%, with some up to 48%. Still too low I agree.


  • #554
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    nullzero wrote: »
    I think you are owed an apology for that. Talk about putting words in somebody's mouth.
    Ya, there’ll be no apology.


  • #555
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    Ya, there’ll be no apology.

    Just as well the likes of you isn't in charge of the justice system.


  • #556
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    professore wrote: »
    People like that aren't interested in discussion. They think they are 100% right about everything and want to shut down and destroy anyone who disagrees with them.

    I've repeatedly said rape is deplorable and I back stiff sentences for rapists. I would also back some better system for cross examining rape victims, perhaps one to one via video link. However censoring that cross examination would not be something I would support.

    Personally I don't think her underwear was relevant either but the barrister thought it would play well with the jury. All sorts of "irrelevant" evidence is routinely used, like the whatsapp messages in the recent rugby trial. No one was protesting that.

    Its up to the judge to stop the prosecution badgering the witness in this way.
    Nobody is questioning cross examination but I don’t think stating to the jury that the victim wore a thong (under her clothes I’m assuming) therefore consent was implied. That isn’t a cross examination.


  • #557
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,945 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    I’m not sure you grasp that a woman is raped from the moment someone inserts part of himself into her without consent, and whether she was wearing crotchless knickers or a full on Chastity belt has nothing to do with it.


    Are we speaking in the context of someone who is raped, or someone who is accused of rape? I just want to be clear here because what you’re saying doesn’t apply to anything I said. I’m very much aware that anyone, whether they are a man, woman or child, is raped, when someone rapes them.

    That’s not the same context as a criminal trial where someone is accused of rape, and then they have legal rights like the right to the presumption of innocence, the right to a fair trial and so on, and their accuser may or may not be called to give evidence in the States case against the defendant. In a criminal trial, the defendant is presumed innocent until they are found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    In the recent case which ignited this whole discussion, the defendant gave evidence that they weren’t sure had they actually even had sex as the defendant maintains they were unable to get fully erect -


    The defendant said they had gone up a lane and were lying down in a muddy area. He said that he could not get fully erect and did not think his penis went into her vagina. He said it was possible that it did but he did not think so.


    According to his evidence, that alone would be enough to suggest according to your definition that he did not commit rape. Whether the alleged victim were wearing crotchless knickers or a chastity belt would be very much a relevant factor in a similar scenario, and that’s why the idea of excluding specific evidence from being introduced at trial is a terrible idea. It may not be relevant to some people, but it should absolutely be up to a jury to make the determination as to whether or not it’s relevant or irrelevant in any specific case.


  • #558
    nullzero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,904 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    Ya, there’ll be no apology.

    I didn't think there would be, I reported the post anyway to be safe.

    Glazers Out!



  • #559
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    nullzero wrote: »
    I didn't think there would be, I reported the post anyway to be safe.
    Well done, I’m sure it took a lot of effort to do so, and I’m sure I’ll start to give a fûck any second now


  • #560
    nullzero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,904 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    Well done, I’m sure it took a lot of effort to do so, and I’m sure I’ll start to give a fûck any second now

    Right.

    I could say some stuff here about how I'd decode your attitude etc but I'm not going to stoop. Take care of yourself.

    Glazers Out!



  • #561
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Are we speaking in the context of someone who is raped, or someone who is accused of rape? I just want to be clear here because what you’re saying doesn’t apply to anything I said. I’m very much aware that anyone, whether they are a man, woman or child, is raped, when someone rapes them.

    That’s not the same context as a criminal trial where someone is accused of rape, and then they have legal rights like the right to the presumption of innocence, the right to a fair trial and so on, and their accuser may or may not be called to give evidence in the States case against the defendant. In a criminal trial, the defendant is presumed innocent until they are found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    In the recent case which ignited this whole discussion, the defendant gave evidence that they weren’t sure had they actually even had sex as the defendant maintains they were unable to get fully erect -


    The defendant said they had gone up a lane and were lying down in a muddy area. He said that he could not get fully erect and did not think his penis went into her vagina. He said it was possible that it did but he did not think so.


    According to his evidence, that alone would be enough to suggest according to your definition that he did not commit rape. Whether the alleged victim were wearing crotchless knickers or a chastity belt would be very much a relevant factor in a similar scenario, and that’s why the idea of excluding specific evidence from being introduced at trial is a terrible idea. It may not be relevant to some people, but it should absolutely be up to a jury to make the determination as to whether or not it’s relevant or irrelevant in any specific case.

    Is there a report of the context of the thong reference? I couldn't find any, only hysterical clickbait articles.


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  • #562
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    nullzero wrote: »
    Right.

    I could say some stuff here about how I'd decode your attitude etc but I'm not going to stoop. Take care of yourself.
    Thanks for sharing what you could say, but that you’ll stop. You take care too.


  • #563
    nullzero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,904 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote: »
    Thanks for sharing what you could say, but that you’ll stop. You take care too.

    All I'm saying is, you accused the other poster of trivialising rape which they didn't, which is libelous, so an apology would have been fitting at the very least.

    Glazers Out!



  • #564
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    I'm out. Goodnight everyone.


  • #565
    retro:electro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    professore wrote: »
    Personally I don't think her underwear was relevant either but the barrister thought it would play well with the jury. All sorts of "irrelevant" evidence is routinely used, like the whatsapp messages in the recent rugby trial. No one was protesting that.

    I don’t think that’s true, plenty of people protested against the examinination of their WhatsApps.
    The two are incomparable though. The WhatsApp’s were relevant insofar as they provided context to the alleged rape. Although they weren’t enough to prove she was raped, they were relevant to the discussion because it was a running narrative concerning the events of the night before. Their comments did not paint them in a flattering light, and this was used to prop up the plaintiffs case. Their WhatsApps weren’t examined from before they met the girl were they? I’m unsure on that but I don’t think they were. But I know its the ones sent after the fact that were most pertinent.

    The underwear a victim wears has no bearing on whether or not she intends to have sex, because it’s an item of clothing that’s put on before the possibility of sex is even on the table. She could have went for the laciest thong in Ireland because a) she felt hot in it or b) the rest was in the wash. It does not give anyone the right to assign meaning to them, and infer that sex was on the table cos Glamour magazine or whoever the fcuk said so.

    Btw her WhatsApps were analysed too.


  • #566
    Pentatonic Intonation
    Site Banned Posts: 11 ✭Pentatonic Intonation


    Let's face it, if any of us was up on a rape charge we'd be expecting our barrister to do everything possible to get us off the hook.


  • #567
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,945 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    professore wrote: »
    Is there a report of the context of the thong reference? I couldn't find any, only hysterical clickbait articles.


    Same tbh, unfortunately all the evidence we have to go on are articles in the media which exclude any context for the barristers comments. Perhaps they too thought context is irrelevant.


  • #568
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    professore wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    From Northern Ireland;




    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/north-s-justice-system-failing-sexual-violence-victims-report-finds-1.3696246

    That's not the Republic. The religious Conservative culture up there is a big factor. The lowest figure I could find was 19%, with some up to 48%. Still too low I agree.
    I found 8% for Ireland.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/sexual-offences-a-system-in-need-of-change-1.3443529

    Would you be advising a family member to take on the intense trauma of a court case with an 8% chance of conviction?


  • #569
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    professore wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    From Northern Ireland; https:/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/north-s-justice-system-failing-sexual-violence-victims-report-finds-1.3696246
    That's not the Republic. The religious Conservative culture up there is a big factor. The lowest figure I could find was 19%, with some up to 48%. Still too low I agree.
    I found 8% for Ireland.https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/sexual-offences-a-system-in-need-of-change-1.3443529Would you be advising a family member to take on the intense trauma of a court case with an 8% chance of conviction?
    Pentatonic Intonation wrote: »
    Let's face it, if any of us was up on a rape charge we'd be expecting our barrister to do everything possible to get us off the hook.
    Everything? Would you expect them to lie? Would you expect them to blame other family members for your crime?

    Are there any ethical limits as to what you expect your barrister to do?


  • #570
    titan18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,063 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Harvey Attractive Baby wrote:
    Nobody is questioning cross examination but I don’t think stating to the jury that the victim wore a thong (under her clothes I’m assuming) therefore consent was implied. That isn’t a cross examination.


    Tbf, a lot of the exact same people (Coppinger etc) considered the WhatsApp messages to be proof that the rugby players did rape the girl, just cos of the talk that went on in it.

    Can't really have it both ways.

    To me, anything is allowed to be presented into evidence in court. It's on the judge and jury whether it's considered admissable and what they want to take from it. Just cos defense uses it as an argument, doesn't mean you have to consider it. But legislating on what can and cannot be presented is retarded.


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  • #571
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    professore wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    From Northern Ireland; https:/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/north-s-justice-system-failing-sexual-violence-victims-report-finds-1.3696246
    That's not the Republic. The religious Conservative culture up there is a big factor. The lowest figure I could find was 19%, with some up to 48%. Still too low I agree.
    I found 8% for Ireland.https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/sexual-offences-a-system-in-need-of-change-1.3443529Would you be advising a family member to take on the intense trauma of a court case with an 8% chance of conviction?
    Pentatonic Intonation wrote: »
    Let's face it, if any of us was up on a rape charge we'd be expecting our barrister to do everything possible to get us off the hook.
    Everything? Would you expect them to lie? Would you expect them to blame other family members for your crime?

    Are there any ethical limits as to what you expect your barrister to do?


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