Long Term Leasing to Council

twoshortlegs · 13-11-2018 12:33pm #1

Has anyone here gone down the route of renting out their property to the council?

My current situation is this; living in South Dublin (Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co.Co) in a 1 bed apartment, at the moment there's potentially 50k negative equity. Current repayments are €843 per month and the management fee was €1500 this year, although I suspect that may increase next year.

We're currently trying to save enough of a deposit to move, although it's slow going with the mortgage and associated costs. We're going to need a very substantial deposit because of the negative equity. My wife's sisters have all moved out, and her parents are now on their own in a 5 bed house. They've offered to let us move in and stay there rent-free while we save up for a deposit. If we could make this work it would be great, because we could probably save about 100k in 3 years. The problem is our apartment.

We DO NOT want to be private landlords, but the bank won't let us sell the apartment and repay the rest of the negative equity as a loan. We're looking into the council as an option, because it would take away the day-to-day management of the apartment/tenancy. We wouldn't actually be the landlord, the council would.

Has anyone else done this, and what has your experience of it been?

We're totally clueless about the whole process, particularly the tax aspect.

It says on the county council website that they pay 80% market rate, who decides what market rate is? If they say market rate is €1400, but we can prove it's higher by taking the rents from similar properties in the area, will they amend their figure?

Is all rental income taxed at 40%?

Can we offset the management fees against our taxes?

Are we likely to lose our tracker if we go down this route?

Does the council have to hand the property back to you in good order at the end of this? It says on their website 'general wear and tear' is allowed, but say the tenants decided to do something nuts like paint all the walls black, would we be expected to fix that at the end?

I'd be grateful if anyone could share their experiences of this.

iwilldare · 13-11-2018 12:57pm

I'd check this out further If I was you. I looked into this and from what I know its similar to HAP - if the tenant stops paying their percentage of the rent the council stop all payment too....

DubCount · 13-11-2018 1:11pm

iwilldare wrote: »

I'd check this out further If I was you. I looked into this and from what I know its similar to HAP - if the tenant stops paying their percentage of the rent the council stop all payment too....

I dont think that is correct. Its a lease between 10-20 years and the CC pay the lease.

The downside is its a fixed commitment for at least 10 years - no breaks, no way out, and rent is about 80% of market value.

I never tried it, but it does look interesting.

Xterminator · 13-11-2018 1:20pm

iwilldare wrote: »

if the tenant stops paying their percentage of the rent the council stop all payment too....

absolutely wrong. rent is guaranteed, return condition is guaranteed. The reason it may suit OP is because they can literally take back possession on 10 years, with mortgage paid down, and reassess any negative equity.

copy and paste from DCC website.

Benefits Of Long Term Leasing:
Guaranteed Rental Income
No management of tenants
No rent or arrears collections
No maintenance of the residential property after the first six months of the lease
No requirement to register with the Residential Tenancy Board
No advertising or administration fees

The Student · 13-11-2018 2:13pm

DubCount wrote: »

I dont think that is correct. Its a lease between 10-20 years and the CC pay the lease.

The downside is its a fixed commitment for at least 10 years - no breaks, no way out, and rent is about 80% of market value.

I never tried it, but it does look interesting.

You are correct, you don't have to supply any white goods etc. You may however be liable for the Management fee although I am not sure. It is a very attractive proposition if you don't want to be a landlord.

The two parties to the lease are you and the council. They decide who they put in the property and they are liable for the payment of the rent.

Samuel T. Cogley · 13-11-2018 3:03pm

85% of market rate if there is a management fee and you have to supply the apartment fully furnished - at least for Dublin City you do. If after 6 months something goes wrong you're no longer liable - longer for structural works but I forget how long.

Income tax will be more like 50%+ if you're going to be able to save 100K in 3 years. It's exactly the same as your wages except you can claim back for a myriad of expenses. I doubt it will cover itself if that's the main thrust of what you're looking at.

Rent is reviewed every 2 years on the 10 year fixed agreement and every 4 years on the 20 year - no need to register with the RTB.

I'm assuming that it's the same as the Dublin City scheme I defer to posters who say different.

machalla · 13-11-2018 3:21pm

You have to wonder if you went with a 10 year lease what the legislative environment might in 10 years time?

The rules may change in the meantime to say that if someone is living in a house over x number of years they can stay there for good.

In that case you won't be able to sell the property or if you do it will be at a massive discount. Likely to the council. All speculation of course, no-one knows the future.

The Student · 13-11-2018 3:40pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

85% of market rate if there is a management fee and you have to supply the apartment fully furnished - at least for Dublin City you do. If after 6 months something goes wrong you're no longer liable - longer for structural works but I forget how long.

Income tax will be more like 50%+ if you're going to be able to save 100K in 3 years. It's exactly the same as your wages except you can claim back for a myriad of expenses. I doubt it will cover itself if that's the main thrust of what you're looking at.

Rent is reviewed every 2 years on the 10 year fixed agreement and every 4 years on the 20 year - no need to register with the RTB.

I'm assuming that it's the same as the Dublin City scheme I defer to posters who say different.

Has changed since I looked at it. I did not realize it has now to be furnished. Although if you have to furnish it then you can claim capital allowances over the 8 yr period and mortgage interest relief so your tax should be reduced.

I would have thought you could review the rent each two years as per the RTA and the Rent Pressure Zone as opposed to every four years although I am only thinking out loud on this aspect.

Toots · 13-11-2018 3:40pm

I'd be interested in this too, I'm in a similar situation, also in Dun Laoghaire Rsthdown.

My concerns are that it would cover itself (my mortgage is 856 a month, so fairly close to the OP), or that the shortfall would be fairly small. My husband's income is 60k gross. I'm at home with kids.

Someone said to me that income from renting to the council is tax free? I'm sure that would be too good to be true.

Also I'd be worried about what they'd deem fair wear and tear - I read online that they may agree to pay for damage over and above wear and tear up to the value of one months rent, but say the tenants destroyed the place and did thousands of Euro worth of damage, what recourse would you have?

Samuel T. Cogley · 13-11-2018 3:45pm

Toots wrote: »

I'd be interested in this too, I'm in a similar situation, also in Dun Laoghaire Rsthdown.

My concerns are that it would cover itself (my mortgage is 856 a month, so fairly close to the OP), or that the shortfall would be fairly small. My husband's income is 60k gross. I'm at home with kids.

Someone said to me that income from renting to the council is tax free? I'm sure that would be too good to be true.

Also I'd be worried about what they'd deem fair wear and tear - I read online that they may agree to pay for damage over and above wear and tear up to the value of one months rent, but say the tenants destroyed the place and did thousands of Euro worth of damage, what recourse would you have?

You'll be in the top bracket for tax and it's not tax free. If they wreck the place it's up to the council to fix it, however after ten years everything in the apartment is effectively spent and worthless so plan to a refurbishment prior to selling.

Toots · 13-11-2018 3:57pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You'll be in the top bracket for tax and it's not tax free. If they wreck the place it's up to the council to fix it, however after ten years everything in the apartment is effectively spent and worthless so plan to a refurbishment prior to selling.

A refurbishment we could deal with, ie replacing carpets/laminate, painting etc. However if they did something extreme like destroyed the kitchen units or pulled down drywall etc that's what I would be concerned about.

Toots · 13-11-2018 5:17pm

Another quick question, don't mean to hijack the OPs thread but this may be helpful to them.

With regard to tax, say the council pays us 1250 per month in rent, and the bank takes the tracker away and puts us on an investment mortgage rate (currently around 5%) That would put our repayments at about 1500 per month. So given that we'd have a shortfall, would we still be liable for tax on the rental income?

DubCount · 13-11-2018 5:30pm

Toots wrote: »

Another quick question, don't mean to hijack the OPs thread but this may be helpful to them.

With regard to tax, say the council pays us 1250 per month in rent, and the bank takes the tracker away and puts us on an investment mortgage rate (currently around 5%) That would put our repayments at about 1500 per month. So given that we'd have a shortfall, would we still be liable for tax on the rental income?

Income from a lease to the CC is taxed just like other rental income. Its not exempt.

The amount of tax payable depends on the mortgage interest, and not the mortgage repayment. Your repayments may be 1500 p.m., but the interest might be say 900 per month. In that case, you would have a taxable profit of 1250 income less interest of 900 giving a profit of 350p.m.

Its a bit more complicated than that depending on the tax year, if you have other allowable costs etc., but its just to show the general principal that you may have a net cash outflow each month, and still have a tax bill, as the capital repayments on your mortgage are not tax allowable.

Toots · 13-11-2018 5:52pm

Forgot to add to that post that the interest on the monthly payments is 1333, so of the 1500, 1333 is interest.

hoocher · 04-01-2019 3:18am

twoshortlegs wrote: »

Has anyone here gone down the route of renting out their property to the council?

My current situation is this; living in South Dublin (Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co.Co) in a 1 bed apartment, at the moment there's potentially 50k negative equity. Current repayments are €843 per month and the management fee was €1500 this year, although I suspect that may increase next year.

We're currently trying to save enough of a deposit to move, although it's slow going with the mortgage and associated costs. We're going to need a very substantial deposit because of the negative equity. My wife's sisters have all moved out, and her parents are now on their own in a 5 bed house. They've offered to let us move in and stay there rent-free while we save up for a deposit. If we could make this work it would be great, because we could probably save about 100k in 3 years. The problem is our apartment.

We DO NOT want to be private landlords, but the bank won't let us sell the apartment and repay the rest of the negative equity as a loan. We're looking into the council as an option, because it would take away the day-to-day management of the apartment/tenancy. We wouldn't actually be the landlord, the council would.

Has anyone else done this, and what has your experience of it been?

We're totally clueless about the whole process, particularly the tax aspect.

It says on the county council website that they pay 80% market rate, who decides what market rate is? If they say market rate is €1400, but we can prove it's higher by taking the rents from similar properties in the area, will they amend their figure?

Is all rental income taxed at 40%?

Can we offset the management fees against our taxes?

Are we likely to lose our tracker if we go down this route?

Does the council have to hand the property back to you in good order at the end of this? It says on their website 'general wear and tear' is allowed, but say the tenants decided to do something nuts like paint all the walls black, would we be expected to fix that at the end?

I'd be grateful if anyone could share their experiences of this.

Hi did you proceed? We are looking at this too so curious.....

blaze1 · 28-02-2019 11:43pm

Hi, not sure if anyone is still looking over this thread, but we're in a similar situation and also arrears on our mortgage, would this be something the CC would still take on?

Also in regards to tax on the rental, our mortgage repayments would be around 1900 per month, I suspect this would be roughly the going rate for rental in our area, would we be taxed on this if we weren't actually making a profit on the mortgage payments?

Caranica · 01-03-2019 4:09am

blaze1 wrote: »

Hi, not sure if anyone is still looking over this thread, but we're in a similar situation and also arrears on our mortgage, would this be something the CC would still take on?

Also in regards to tax on the rental, our mortgage repayments would be around 1900 per month, I suspect this would be roughly the going rate for rental in our area, would we be taxed on this if we weren't actually making a profit on the mortgage payments?

You are taxed on income not on profit. There are certain deductibles that will help reduce tax liability but you'd still have a significant tax liability on rent that high.

twoshortlegs · 10-03-2019 4:49pm

hoocher wrote: »

Hi did you proceed? We are looking at this too so curious.....

We haven't, so far anyway. Because we'd lose our tracker, it's looking like a less attractive option. We're most likely going to try and save as big a deposit as possible and then our bank will let us take our tracker with us +1% so we'll probably have to move further out, but at least we'll have more space. When we looked at the numbers, it would actually be better for us to move down to the in-laws and just leave the apartment vacant. We're going to see if any family members would like to house sit for us while we're not there.

blaze1 wrote: »

Hi, not sure if anyone is still looking over this thread, but we're in a similar situation and also arrears on our mortgage, would this be something the CC would still take on?

Also in regards to tax on the rental, our mortgage repayments would be around 1900 per month, I suspect this would be roughly the going rate for rental in our area, would we be taxed on this if we weren't actually making a profit on the mortgage payments?

I'm not sure about the arrears, but when I asked DLRCOCO they said that they will want a letter of consent from your lender to say that they will allow you to rent to the council long term. You'd have to speak to your lender about it because if you're in arrears, they may not allow it.

Yes, you'll be taxed even if you're not making a profit. As far as we could see, you can write off the interest portion of your mortgage repayment against your tax, but the rest is taxed. So say your mortgage repayment is 1900 per month, and that's made of up 1300 interest and 600 capital, and you rent your place for 1900, you'll be liable for the tax on the 600, or say if you were renting it out for 1800 you'd have to pay tax on the 500.

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-03-2019 5:01pm

Ah sheet, if Dublin City CoCo need a similar letter then that's out for me then too. Thanks for the update.

tvjunki · 11-03-2019 12:48pm

You may be limited with the income if it is a one bed in Dublin. If it is an apartment they may not take it if there are stairs etc.

Also the market rent is not council rent level. The council look at the property and if the council HAP level is say €900 for a couple(you have a one bed) and the market rent in the area is €1600(IFC) they will only pay maybe €900 or less if long term rental....so 80% of €900.00

If it is a person with a baby €1250.00. If you are at the higher tax rate you pay 41% Also usc on the gross income not after costs. You then have property tax increase in insurance as rented out and other costs associated with rental. All adds up.

Samuel T. Cogley · 11-03-2019 1:22pm

Dublin City Co. Use the daft rate.

twoshortlegs · 11-03-2019 1:27pm

From my research DLR CoCo give 80% of market rate. What I was looking into wasn't HAP, it was basically I would be leasing my apartment to the council for 20 years, and they would pay the rent directly to me. I would have nothing to do with the day to day stuff. They would be responsible for thr tenant, and I get paid whether or not it is occupied. There was a shorter term option, but in that case I would have been the land lord, and I have no desire to go down that road.

thomasjad · 19-03-2019 6:24pm

Anyone in a similar situation considering renting to the council please PM me

LizardKing · 20-03-2019 11:15am

I did this with my apartment which was also down from celtic tiger 360k -> today selling for about 210k-230k (maybe a little more now)

We went for the 10 year lease with DCC and it took a long time to get over the line. (Needed certs and solicitor etc)

Once we did finally get sorted though its been smooth sailing.

No need to register on RTB and 2 yearly rent reviews.

They use daft rates and reviews are negotiable ( Negotiation is key to initial rent payment too)

payment is monthly and prompt

I used the services of taxassist.ie to help with all my taxes for this.

They are really helpful with what can and cannot be offset

I did not lose my Tracker (EBS)

I did lose my mortgage relief as it is no longer principal property (had to contact the revenue myself to do this)

Some may leave it but I wanted to do everything legit

I still get some emails etc from apartment mgmt co. and still have to pay mgt fee annually but overall I think it is worth it

Mad_maxx · 19-04-2019 4:09pm

Xterminator wrote: »

absolutely wrong. rent is guaranteed, return condition is guaranteed. The reason it may suit OP is because they can literally take back possession on 10 years, with mortgage paid down, and reassess any negative equity.

copy and paste from DCC website.

Benefits Of Long Term Leasing:
Guaranteed Rental Income
No management of tenants
No rent or arrears collections
No maintenance of the residential property after the first six months of the lease
No requirement to register with the Residential Tenancy Board
No advertising or administration fees

One major downside is the local authority use the long term lease scheme as a dumping ground for repeat toxic tenants

Prepare to have your neighbours hate you as the council will not evict no matter if the tenants use the property as a grow house

august12 · 19-04-2019 4:33pm

LizardKing wrote:

I did lose my mortgage relief as it is no longer principal property (had to contact the revenue myself to do this)

Is mortgage interest deductible as an allowable expense against rental income, I understood one had to be registererd with RTB to claim this, can anyone verify.

Mad_maxx · 19-04-2019 5:51pm

august12 wrote: »

Is mortgage interest deductible as an allowable expense against rental income, I understood one had to be registererd with RTB to claim this, can anyone verify.

Yes it's deductible

The_Conductor · 19-04-2019 7:11pm

august12 wrote: »

Is mortgage interest deductible as an allowable expense against rental income, I understood one had to be registererd with RTB to claim this, can anyone verify.

When letting to a local authority the interest component of mortgages are wholly allowable costs before calculation of taxable income. Note- so is the management charge.

Bazz1234 · 24-12-2019 3:33am

Very interesting concept? Anyone here done it and recommend it? Or not? Also, is it taxed?

The_Conductor · 24-12-2019 8:38am

Bazz1234 wrote: »

Very interesting concept? Anyone here done it and recommend it? Or not? Also, is it taxed?

Discount of at least 10% (possibly significantly higher) to open market rental rates.
In exchange for this- the council looks after the tenancy- you have no dealings with the tenant.
However, typically there is no break clause- and if the tenant is unable or unwilling to move at the end of the duration- the council prove exceedingly unhelpful despite the fact that they are overstaying their tenancy with their tenant.

And yes- its taxed, of course it is.

It was particularly attractive for someone who bought a property with as near as possible to a 100% mortgage- as the larger portion of the costs- the interest on the mortgage, was wholly deductible- whereas now its wholly deductible for all landlords.

All-in-all there are landlords out there- who are very happy with the scheme- particularly as it insulates them from dealing with the day-to-day issues that arise with the tenant. There are however, far more landlords who for various reasons have sworn off ever dealing with local authorities/councils ever again- as its a very one sided relationship where the landlord is never told anything.

In practice councils have often used these units as dumping grounds for 'problem tenants' that they have difficulty housing elsewhere- which also sours any relationship a landlord may have with neighbours- not to mention the properties are often returned in exceedingly poor states of repair.

So- all-in-all its a bit of a mixed bag really. It had its place in the mix at one stage in the rental crisis- that stage has probably moved on (and been subsumed into the whole HAP saga).

If you're not looking for top dollar- are glad to tie up your property for 10 years (or however long a contract you negotiate with the council), are pleased with not dealing with tenants, don't care about neighbours or the state of the property when its returned to you- then maybe it is something that you could consider.

At this point in time- there are not a cohort of landlords queuing up to join the scheme- and those who are currently in the scheme don't tend to renew when the contracts come up.

A far more interesting source of vacant property in reasonable state of repair- are the tens of thousands of vacant homes of people who have elected to partake in the 'Fair Deal' scheme. Its criminal that it pays to keep them vacant........

TuringBot47 · 24-12-2019 5:12pm

Bazz1234 wrote: »

Very interesting concept? Anyone here done it and recommend it? Or not? Also, is it taxed?

Of course it's taxed.

Currently on a long term lease with a council... didn't want a second job of a landlord on top of my normal job. ( Wife had house too before we met )

Points to note
- We're getting probably less than 80% of what we could if we rented privately
- We had to spend a lot to bring the house to spec... insulation, electrical reports, architectural reports (even though house was as per plan), insulating attic doors, smoke and heat alarms, child proof window locks etc...
- It took feckin 6-9 months for them to get their act together
- You need the explicit approval of your mortgage provider... that "might" give them an opportunity to drop your from a tracker rate or increase your rate.

A solicitor reviewed the contract and said there were so many holes in the contract and interpretation that it was probably worthless as a contract.
Eg. they said after 10-20 years you must give the existing tenants "first refusal" of the sale price... How would that work? You could make up an initial price that was ridiculous. And the council only have to give you back a shell of a house (in theory) any sofas or white appliances you have now would be depreciated to zero in 10-20 years.

But, for accidental landlords... it's an option outside of the private rental route where payment is guaranteed.

randomname2005 · 14-04-2021 11:35am

Apologies if this zombie thread should be left in the past.
Has anyone recently taken up this option (with any local council)? It is something being considered but would like to see what the current realities are.

Best wishes,
RN

Samuel T. Cogley · 14-04-2021 12:17pm

randomname2005 wrote: »

Apologies if this zombie thread should be left in the past.
Has anyone recently taken up this option (with any local council)? It is something being considered but would like to see what the current realities are.

Best wishes,
RN

We've a couple of these in our complex. It seems to me it's where they dump the problem cases.

mel123 · 14-04-2021 12:43pm

randomname2005 wrote: »

Apologies if this zombie thread should be left in the past.
Has anyone recently taken up this option (with any local council)? It is something being considered but would like to see what the current realities are.

Best wishes,
RN

I have not taken up the option but i do know the ins and outs of it well. To me its a great idea in theory. Once you hand over the property to the council, they become the landlord so you have nothing to do with the property for the lease term. There are different lease terms you can choose. But a worry would be if i lease my property out for 10 years, after the ten years, is the tenant going to move if i want the property back? The council seem to have a bad rap for helping with the eviction process and even advising tenants to over hold.

The technical end of it, your property gets inspected to make sure it meets regulations. If it doesnt you can do the works and they will come back. If it gets accepted then you need to have the contents they tell you plus it has to be all new white goods, or they must have a minimum warranty left on them (cant remember off the top of my head).
As others have said, you get no say in who they put in there, you could get someone from hell to terrorise your neighbours, or you could get the best tenant going, pure luck of the draw.

JimmyVik · 14-04-2021 12:54pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

We've a couple of these in our complex. It seems to me it's where they dump the problem cases.

My friend is literally in tears every night now after leasing to the council 2 years ago on a 10 year lease.
It was fine for the first 1.5 years.
Then they started getting knocks on their door in a different town from irate neighbours of the tenants the council put in their apartment.

Now they are daily getting threats and solicitors letters as well as letters from the management company telling them to do something about the anti social tenants.

They have contacted the council numerous times and asked them to sort out the anti social behavior. Council just say, we have spoken to them, and thats it.

My friend can do nothing whatsoever about the situation, yet they are the ones the neighbours and management company are focusing on. They are really in a bad place.

Council dumped some scumbag in there and they have proceeded to make life a living hell for all the people living around them. #And the council will do nothing at all to sort out the situation and basically told my friend its none of their business to get lost.

The funny thing is that it was Aribnbd for the summer before they leased it to the council. They got lots of complaints about luggage wheel noise, so they just decided to lease it to the council when airbnb became illegal.
I bet all those people would love it to be airbnbd now.

cruizer101 · 14-04-2021 1:21pm

Feel sorry for your friend, I had always thought the great advantage of it was the detachment as you are not really the landlord the council is.

Have they tried to get in contact with local councillors they may be able to push it more with the council.
Also maybe talk to a solicitor as that sounds like harassment, it is not their responsibility, how did they get their address.

JimmyVik · 14-04-2021 2:18pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Feel sorry for your friend, I had always thought the great advantage of it was the detachment as you are not really the landlord the council is.

Have they tried to get in contact with local councillors they may be able to push it more with the council.
Also maybe talk to a solicitor as that sounds like harassment, it is not their responsibility, how did they get their address.

Im sure it is harassment, but at the same time they dont want the people to be going through this.
They have been on to local councilors but just got the usual, thankyou for your email, i will look into it stuff.

They are thinking about going to a solicitor but they would probably have to have a separate case against all the people who are harassing them. Must be about 5 at this point.

Looking from the other peoples points of view, they are just looking for someone, anyone to do something about this tenant.

Really all thats needed is for the council to put manners on their tenant which they are not doing.

LizardKing · 14-04-2021 2:30pm

They should talk to the solicitor whom they used to setup the original 10 year lease with the council.

Get them to write a letter to the council to outline the issues and the complaints

The council 100% have to manage the tenants they put into the units and if they are not abiding by the house rules as outlined in the lease they should be warned and then if they continue they should be moved out.

(Problem is the pandemic and evictions are outlawed mostly)

LizardKing · 14-04-2021 2:36pm

mel123 wrote: »

I have not taken up the option but i do know the ins and outs of it well. To me its a great idea in theory. Once you hand over the property to the council, they become the landlord so you have nothing to do with the property for the lease term. There are different lease terms you can choose. But a worry would be if i lease my property out for 10 years, after the ten years, is the tenant going to move if i want the property back? The council seem to have a bad rap for helping with the eviction process and even advising tenants to over hold.

The technical end of it, your property gets inspected to make sure it meets regulations. If it doesnt you can do the works and they will come back. If it gets accepted then you need to have the contents they tell you plus it has to be all new white goods, or they must have a minimum warranty left on them (cant remember off the top of my head).
As others have said, you get no say in who they put in there, you could get someone from hell to terrorise your neighbours, or you could get the best tenant going, pure luck of the draw.

I have not heard of any Long-Term Leases being turned back to owners with tenants in place. The contract states the term of the lease and they are required to hand back the property in the same state they were given bar the fixtures and fittings , furniture etc..It would be crazy if they tried to hand back the unit with tenants still in place.

There are shorter term RAS leases perhaps that this could happen on where the owner remains the landlord and deals direct with the tenants and is paid by the council.

JimmyVik · 14-04-2021 2:57pm

LizardKing wrote: »

They should talk to the solicitor whom they used to setup the original 10 year lease with the council.

Get them to write a letter to the council to outline the issues and the complaints

The council 100% have to manage the tenants they put into the units and if they are not abiding by the house rules as outlined in the lease they should be warned and then if they continue they should be moved out.

(Problem is the pandemic and evictions are outlawed mostly)

Ive had dealings with councils myself in the past. Co-operative is not a word i would use to describe them. The opposite in fact.

randomname2005 · 14-04-2021 3:25pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

We've a couple of these in our complex. It seems to me it's where they dump the problem cases.

Thanks for the info.

mel123 · 14-04-2021 3:32pm

LizardKing wrote: »

I have not heard of any Long-Term Leases being turned back to owners with tenants in place. The contract states the term of the lease and they are required to hand back the property in the same state they were given bar the fixtures and fittings , furniture etc..It would be crazy if they tried to hand back the unit with tenants still in place.

There are shorter term RAS leases perhaps that this could happen on where the owner remains the landlord and deals direct with the tenants and is paid by the council.

Yes correct, perhaps i worded it wrong. You certainly are meant to get it back unoccupied after the lease expires, what i mean is, if the tenant doesnt move willingly at expiry, how much does the council push them out?! Hence loads of stories on here of local councils telling tenants to overhold. The council is back to the same situation with the tenant, they have to find them a new property.

Listen its prob much of a muchness in a way, you get a bad tenant weather its through this scheme or one you found yourself, then your up the creek either way. For me, the issue is if my life circumstances change and i need that house back then ive an even slimmer chance of getting it back from the council because i have signed a contract for a certain period of time.

mgn · 14-04-2021 3:45pm

LizardKing wrote: »

I have not heard of any Long-Term Leases being turned back to owners with tenants in place. The contract states the term of the lease and they are required to hand back the property in the same state they were given bar the fixtures and fittings , furniture etc..It would be crazy if they tried to hand back the unit with tenants still in place.

There are shorter term RAS leases perhaps that this could happen on where the owner remains the landlord and deals direct with the tenants and is paid by the council.

I thought the RAS scheme was replaced by the HAP scheme,

At least with RAS you were paid every month regardless of what happened, with the HAP scheme, if the tenant stops paying their share of the rent to the council the council stops paying the landlord.

LizardKing · 14-04-2021 4:19pm

I dunno about RAS / HAP I was just pointing out there is other types of lease and perhaps it was more them than the long term which I have.

The lease states being returned in vacant possession , which means empty

Lease also has clauses if you wish to sell early and you can give council first offer to buy

The_Conductor · 14-04-2021 4:42pm

mel123 wrote: »

Listen its prob much of a muchness in a way, you get a bad tenant weather its through this scheme or one you found yourself, then your up the creek either way. For me, the issue is if my life circumstances change and i need that house back then ive an even slimmer chance of getting it back from the council because i have signed a contract for a certain period of time.

Its not much of a muchness though- if the local authority/council, have an active policy of housing their 'most demanding' tenants in these units.
Aka- the council puts the tenant in. They know they're the dregs of society. You are known to your neighbours who make your life hell, when in actual fact there is nothing whatsoever you can do. When/if a neighbour takes a third party case to the RTB for antisocial behaviour- both you and the council are found guilty- however, they only chase you........

If it was a random tenant being homed in the property, law of odds would suggest you'd probably end up with a tenant who is perfectly fine- however, the odds are stacked against you from the get go on this.

Samuel T. Cogley · 14-04-2021 4:54pm

Just to add to the above, the owner is trying her best with one of the units, but not getting a lot of support from the council (Dublin City) as far as I can tell. It's her we've gone after and potentially (although extremely unlikely) I imagine this sort of thing could go to forfeiture.

mrslancaster · 14-04-2021 6:06pm

A friend of mine started to do a 10 year lease with DCC last year. He got a list of stuff over and above the rented house requirements. House had to have new white goods if over 6 months old, new boiler if over 1 year old, fully furnished with curtains & blinds in all rooms, extra smoke & CM alarms, extractors in bathroom, non slip flooring, freshly painted in & out, attic insulation had to be replaced. He had to send a load of paperwork eg proof of ownership, property tax receipts, insurance, tax clearance and certs for elec/gas. The council sent an inspector to see if everything was ok. He got a report & afair they wanted new locks on hall door, different coffee table & the staircase replaced. They were paying 80% with 3 year reviews based on some EU table and it could go up or down. He didnt go ahead in the end.
Edit: Also, the lease had to be done by a solicitor afair.

The_Conductor · 14-04-2021 6:13pm

That does sound extreme.
New white goods if over 6 months old?
Love to see someone try to explain to Revenue how/why all the white goods have to be replaced on that schedule.
That little shopping list of work- sounds like someone's dream list- new boiler if over a year old- someone is seriously extracting the urine...........

Just out of interest- which local authority was this?

Mad_maxx · 14-04-2021 6:26pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not much of a muchness though- if the local authority/council, have an active policy of housing their 'most demanding' tenants in these units.
Aka- the council puts the tenant in. They know they're the dregs of society. You are known to your neighbours who make your life hell, when in actual fact there is nothing whatsoever you can do. When/if a neighbour takes a third party case to the RTB for antisocial behaviour- both you and the council are found guilty- however, they only chase you........

If it was a random tenant being homed in the property, law of odds would suggest you'd probably end up with a tenant who is perfectly fine- however, the odds are stacked against you from the get go on this.

you cant take a third party case to the RTB where the tenancy involves the local authority , the RTB has no jurisdiction to resolve those matters

mrslancaster · 14-04-2021 6:29pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

That does sound extreme.
New white goods if over 6 months old?
Love to see someone try to explain to Revenue how/why all the white goods have to be replaced on that schedule.
That little shopping list of work- sounds like someone's dream list- new boiler if over a year old- someone is seriously extracting the urine...........

Just out of interest- which local authority was this?

It was DCC and I saw the list allright and it seemed ott. The white goods were about 2/3 years old and he had to get all new plus a new gas boiler. He had to install extra mains smoke & CM alarms in living room and landing. They wanted drapes on all windows as well as blinds and he had to get an electric extractor in the bathroom even though theres a big window. The locks on the front door were new and they had to be changed- small job for a locksmith but everything took months to get done with tradesmen in short supply and lockdowns.

Mad_maxx · 14-04-2021 6:31pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

A friend of mine started to do a 10 year lease with DCC last year. He got a list of stuff over and above the rented house requirements. House had to have new white goods if over 6 months old, new boiler if over 1 year old, fully furnished with curtains & blinds in all rooms, extra smoke & CM alarms, extractors in bathroom, non slip flooring, freshly painted in & out, attic insulation had to be replaced. He had to send a load of paperwork eg proof of ownership, property tax receipts, insurance, tax clearance and certs for elec/gas. The council sent an inspector to see if everything was ok. He got a report & afair they wanted new locks on hall door, different coffee table & the staircase replaced. They were paying 80% with 3 year reviews based on some EU table and it could go up or down. He didnt go ahead in the end.
Edit: Also, the lease had to be done by a solicitor afair.

everything about that is correct bar the having to get a solicitor to draw up the lease , the council present the property owner with a standard lease and the property owner accepts it or lumps it

i have a ten year lease with Limerick CC , none of the above demands would i view as a big deal bar replacing the staircase but perhaps it was in poor order , engineer who inspected my place was pretty reasonable i have to say

i have a rent review in July of this year as three years will have passed , its worked well for me so far but my property was a very small capital investment

Long Term Leasing to Council

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