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Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

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    #32
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,476 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    pat73 wrote: »
    I think your missing the point in my text,I have plenty 10 euro notes if u want some ,all these could add up to 400,00 euro.it isn't like we haven't seen an organisation representing farmers with people on huge wages doing very little.

    This is the point.
    Full transparency in the finances is important from day 1.


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    #33
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Suckler bred stock not only kill out at a higher %, they also have higher meat to bone ratios. This isn't always reflected in the grid price. Believe me the beef barons don't want to see the end of the suckler cow either.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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    #34
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,476 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    In the attached link above , Eamon Corley is introduced as the livestock chair of the Meath IFA. He is the spokesman for this new movement.

    I watched the Agriland interview there, he seems disappointed possibly disillusioned even with the IFA, surely the formation of this organisation shows a failure of the IFA to properly motivate and represent beef producers in sufficient numbers.


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    #35
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    I wonder with this gdpr craic should the factories have access to the aim


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    #36
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,209 ✭✭✭tanko


    DieselMad wrote: »
    @Bass_Reeves I completely agree with the you in that the suckler bred animal should not be singled out for a premium of subsidy or elevated reward vs the typical dairy cross bred animal. Similar as was the underlying tone in the Save Our Sucklers campaign. Backed by the cronies in the Irish Farmers Journal. (Same guys who have no issue increasing their papers price year on year on these hard pressed farmers). By getting involved they got increased sales of their paper due to association with this campaign that they were at the forefront of initiating.



    Both animals are meeting market requirements, It has been determined that there is no difference in eating quality of their respective meats ,in fact the suckler animal has a advantage over the dairy bred in that they have a higher feed efficiency conversion ration and will make heavier weights at younger ages. The suckler cow is able to make better use of more marginal land to produce a good sale able weanling. A good proportion of this land would not support the rearing and fattening of dairy bred beef which requires excellent grass growing skills and utilization to make a reasonable profit.

    Maybe the premium should be to the farmer fattening dairy cross bred beef due to all the issues that he/she has to overcome with the less efficient animals that they are fattening!

    I too was in Kilmallock mart on Monday, and did note that Friesian stores were extremely scarce on the ground. From my experience to date, a reasonable friesian that will often make as good a profit as any of the cross traditional breeds that I buy to fatten. They will take longer and often will go over the 30 months, but will make it back in the weight gain they throw on in Sep/Oct. No point having them under 30 months anyway as they will struggle to make the grade for the 12c QA bonus.

    These animals should be just as entitled to this 12c bonus as any suckler animal. Seeing as they will end up in the same restaurant on the same menu there is no reason why not, save for the nonsence that they don't make a grade benchmark that was set up by the factories in the knowledge that this is where the majority of their stock grade just not requiring them to pay out!

    So you "completely agree" with Bass Reeves and both of you happened to be in Kilmallock mart at the same time. Its a small world.


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    #37
    charolais0153
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153


    tanko wrote: »
    So you "completely agree" with Bass Reeves and both of you happened to be in Kilmallock mart at the same time. Its a small world.

    1 post in 6 years :)


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    #38
    DieselMad
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭DieselMad


    tanko wrote: »
    So you "completely agree" with Bass Reeves and both of you happened to be in Kilmallock mart at the same time. Its a small world.

    @tanko I don't even know the man, might even be a woman for all I know this Bass Reves client!

    Id estimate somewhere in the region of 300 people were also in Kilmallock on Monday. They seem to have a policy of admitting all that arrive to the gate.

    Yes, I do agree with his viewpoint. The primary issue is that the base price of beef in Ireland is to low for any farmer regardless of system or animal to make an acceptable and respectable profit for the time,capital invested and risks that he takes.Why should the suckler bred animal be singled out above other systems?

    Are you a suckler farmer Tanko? World isnt small at all,nor flat.Over the years I have been an observer to many of the beef farming related posts here, and from what I have read Bass Reeves operates a very similar system to mine fattening dairy cross and traditional breeds soley off grass if at all possible.


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    #39
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,058 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    _Brian wrote: »
    I watched the Agriland interview there, he seems disappointed possibly disillusioned even with the IFA, surely the formation of this organisation shows a failure of the IFA to properly motivate and represent beef producers in sufficient numbers.

    That was the same reason that ICSA was reformed....IFA members disillusioned with representation, I know I travelled the country at the time recruiting members fro ICSA,.... now we'll have another organisation to finance


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    #40
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    That was the same reason that ICSA was reformed....IFA members disillusioned with representation, I know I travelled the country at the time recruiting members fro ICSA,.... now we'll have another organisation to finance

    What next step would you take Rangler? Taking into consideration that with 500 approx at Roscommon mart meeting and a general feel good report coming from anyone ive been talking to about it. What would need to be done to hit them where it hurts because talk is extremely cheap and actions speak volumes.


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    #41
    charolais0153
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    What next step would you take Rangler? Taking into consideration that with 500 approx at Roscommon mart meeting and a general feel good report coming from anyone ive been talking to about it. What would need to be done to hit them where it hurts because talk is extremely cheap and actions speak volumes.

    Withhold supplies


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    #42
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    charolais0153 wrote: »
    Withhold supplies

    Thats a given scan.
    What way of approaching that scenario and implementing it would be another days work.


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    #43
    DieselMad
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭DieselMad


    Why not withhold supplies throughout the supply chain from calf to finished animal all the way up? This,for a period of time, at all marts,factories and private sales/export is the only way you would really disrupt the whole trade and get everyone of the businessmen in the supply chain to wake up.

    Will all the suckler men withhold their weanlings from the autumn sales in solidarity with the finishing men who they expect to withhold their finished animals from the factor with the ultimate aim of increasing the breeder/suckler farmers margin? Forgive the cynic in me but I doubt it.

    All the action of withholding supplies, from my interpretation of the 'Beef Plan' document is targeted at the factory gate. Any action of wit holding supplies should be universal with all farmers at all production levels. This would put all the established trade paths out of kilter.


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    #44
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,180 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Suckler bred stock not only kill out at a higher %, they also have higher meat to bone ratios. This isn't always reflected in the grid price. Believe me the beef barons don't want to see the end of the suckler cow either.

    No the beef barons do not want to see the end of suckler beef. Neither do they want to see the end of friesian beef or even JEX beef. The more beef the less they pay for the product.

    What they want suckler beef for in general is the winter finishing system killing in the 330-380kg bracket. However it is uneconomical to kill suckler for this market. The heavier carcasses go onto the Continental market that is not as profitable as cattle into the UK market. It is intresting to see beef prices at present France si the same as us, only Poland and the Netherlands is cheaper one is 20c/kg cheaper and the other is 30c/kg cheaper both young bull prices.

    The issue is at what price is it viable to produce suckler beef in Ireland and what market is that targetted at. What weight confirmation and fatscore will these cattle be. It is interesting on Mart prices thread to see lads complaining about suckler bred weanling, they seems to expect suckler bred weanling in the 300ishkg bracket to make 3/kg. This is not a viable price in the Irish system. Such a weanling would want to come into 1800 euro at slaughter as a two year old. If factor spec is in the 360kg bracket we need the beef from them to be at 5/kg.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #45
    Seaba
    Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭Seaba


    I was at the meeting last night in Roscommon mart.

    Serious crowd there - 500 reported but seemed like a lot more. Anyone that knows the mart, Ring 2 (bullocks ring) was jammed.
    Myself and my Dad have about 60 acres, suckler to beef, decent enough land. I am working full time so Dad does most of the work, my wife is self employed, 3 kids. Like all the farmers there last night we are sick and tired of being screwed on price by the factories.

    I was impressed how everyone spoke last night. A few got very passionate and made some very heart felt speeches but in the main there was a quiet determination to wrestle back control from the factories and, as a few mentioned, the retailers - it was quoted that farmers make 20%, factories 29% and retailers 51%.


    I plan, like a few others I was talking to, to go to every farmer in my village that doesn't know about it, give them the membership form and the address to send the €10, and encourage them to go to the next meeting in the McWilliam Hotel, Claremorris, Co Mayo, November 14th at 8.30pm.

    For the first time in my short farming life I felt last night that things are about to change. As they said at the meeting, no other organisation is going to do it for us. We can either continue being exploited, continue bitching, sniping, crying etc or join together and do something about it.


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    #46
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Guys, what would your opinion be on a 'Beef Futures Market'. I've mentioned it here numerous times and nobody has commented on it.
    They have one in the USA. I wouldnt know the ins and outs of it, to be honest, but my understanding is it allows finishers to take a hedged position to offset any unforseen loses. A kind of insurance policy against falling beef prices.
    Ryainair for example do this against rising oil prices.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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    #47
    tractorporn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭tractorporn


    pat73 wrote:
    I think your missing the point in my text,I have plenty 10 euro notes if u want some ,all these could add up to 400,00 euro.it isn't like we haven't seen an organisation representing farmers with people on huge wages doing very little.


    400000 to start an organisation representing 40,000 farmers is buttons, it wouldn't cover overheads tbh never mind wages, the company I work for has 1300 members and our running costs are over 1 million . I think it shows that the people involved are doing this purely voluntarily and because they want to change things. Look at the beet Ireland set up they are looking for 1000 euro per man to join the co-op


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    #48
    Cavanjack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Cavanjack


    What do they want the weanling and store producing farmers to do? The finishers are to hold stock on the receipt of a text message.
    Fattening bulls is costing up to €4 a day plus when they are fit to go they have to go. Age limits etc will also be a problem. If I Book cattle in today it'll be the week after next before they are killed. If I get a message that day will I have to wait another 10 days before I kill?
    Not knocking the group by the way.


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    #49
    Seaba
    Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭Seaba


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Guys, what would your opinion be on a 'Beef Futures Market'. I've mentioned it here numerous times and nobody has commented on it.
    They have one in the USA. I wouldnt know the ins and outs of it, to be honest, but my understanding is it allows finishers to take a hedged position to offset any unforseen loses. A kind of insurance policy against falling beef prices.
    Ryainair for example do this against rising oil prices.

    I don't know much about it either but similar to what was said last night, and I know you are only asking the question, but IF farmers were paid a FAIR base price and a margin on top, there would be no need for a futures market.

    Everyone said last night, and my Dad of 83 has always said, that all of these "schemes" (and scheming is all they are doing) is buying farmers off with a few quid e.g. €40 a cow for this BG thing scheme - as one fellow said last night - he gave €50 to his grandson as a christening present.

    Bord Bia are the same - it's a way of kicking the can down the road, avoiding one of main issues which is a fair base price. The factories love these schemes as they are getting someone else to support the farmer.


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    #50
    Seaba
    Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭Seaba


    Cavanjack wrote: »
    What do they want the weanling and store producing farmers to do? The finishers are to hold stock on the receipt of a text message.
    Fattening bulls is costing up to €4 a day plus when they are fit to go they have to go. Age limits etc will also be a problem. If I Book cattle in today it'll be the week after next before they are killed. If I get a message that day will I have to wait another 10 days before I kill?
    Not knocking the group by the way.

    In the short term of course you are out of pocket, in the long term you bring about change?


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    #51
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,058 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Cavanjack wrote: »
    What do they want the weanling and store producing farmers to do? The finishers are to hold stock on the receipt of a text message.
    Fattening bulls is costing up to €4 a day plus when they are fit to go they have to go. Age limits etc will also be a problem. If I Book cattle in today it'll be the week after next before they are killed. If I get a message that day will I have to wait another 10 days before I kill?
    Not knocking the group by the way.

    Therein lies the problem, If they threaten wthdrawal of supplies, they better be able to deliver, other wise it'll just be a joke.


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    #52
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,476 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    I think asking lads to withhold cattle is wrong.

    It places the burden of action on the finishers while letting the majority of lads who sell weanlings and stores to heckle fromnthe background and take no action.
    Processors will know who is withholding cattle and this will likely affect any future negotiation position they have with stock down the line.

    A proper French style farmer blockade has allot going for it. It allows opportunities for all beef farms to represent themselves at the frontline and not just the few. It gathers media attention to the cause too.


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    #53
    Seaba
    Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭Seaba


    _Brian wrote: »
    I think asking lads to withhold cattle is wrong.

    It places the burden of action on the finishers while letting the majority of lads who sell weanlings and stores to heckle fromnthe background and take no action.
    Processors will know who is withholding cattle and this will likely affect any future negotiation position they have with stock down the line.

    A proper French style farmer blockade has allot going for it. It allows opportunities for all beef farms to represent themselves at the frontline and not just the few. It gathers media attention to the cause too.

    From what was said last night, the plan is not set in stone - they were asking what they could add, change, remove. How about a combination of blockades and withholding cattle? Give every group a chance to shout up. Would you go to the nearest meeting and say that? There were about 30 lads from "the floor" who spoke last night and everyone was treated very fairly.

    One guy mentioned blocking lorries as they were heading for the port as a tactic. He said outside of Dawn Meats in Ballyhaunis, Co Mayo a few weeks ago they put a tractor across the gates, stopping a lorry leaving and only then did the manager come out to them. One of the guys on the Beef Plan board said he was afraid to tell farmers to do this as it could potentially, legally, result in a farmer being brought to court and sued for physically obstructing the operations of a business. I can see why he was reluctant to do this.
    Also those lorries leave at all hours of the night - it would be difficult to monitor that, be at the gates at 3am etc


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    #54
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    How is this gonna be different from a couple of years ago? From my understanding there was more dairy lads turned up to protests than beef farmers? Not shouting it down just a genuine question


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    #55
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,476 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    My other wonder is what will the factory ask in return ??

    They’re not going to throw out a price increase for nothing, that’s like admitting they’ve been screwing beef farmers all along.

    A negotiation is only successful if everyone feels they have gained from the deal, they currently hold all the cards and get what they want, where is the incentive to negotiate and at what price ??


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    #56
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Funny but everyone blames the factories when prices go down, but when prices rise there is always some other reason, like increased demand from one country or another. Nobody will accept that maybe there is a reduced global demand for beef. Couple that to a fall in sterling and a small country like ours, that exports 90% of our beef is always going to get hit hard.

    (I'll run for cover.)

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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    #57
    DieselMad
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭DieselMad


    charolais0153 wrote: »
    1 post in 6 years :)

    @charolais0153 Have not been on boards in a good while for a look. Googled Beef Plan and this thread came up, thus here I am!

    Correct in your observation though, after 6 years in the shadows!

    And I'm contributing now because I feel that there is a genuine support and strength behind this 'Beef Plan' movement. And from talking to a few part time farmers at work today, they all know about it and have a genuine support for the movement too.

    Seems to be supported by the ordinary farmer, lot of the guys working off farm in full time jobs. Not like the political animal that is the IFA full of big beef farmers finishing hundreds of animals a year,intrinsically linked to the factories and their procurement men , with big a SFP to back them up and support their debt and expansion over the years.

    You will find me over in the thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php if you have any further doubts about me being a computer or a human!! Very good forum with lot of good info and discussion amongst the members if you have not yet visited. Lot of Irish members like myself on it too.


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    #58
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,476 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Mooooo wrote: »
    How is this gonna be different from a couple of years ago? From my understanding there was more dairy lads turned up to protests than beef farmers? Not shouting it down just a genuine question

    Beef farmers feel abandoned and disenfranchised by their so called representatives, and given the state of the industry it’s easy to see the viewpoint.


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    #59
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    _Brian wrote: »
    Beef farmers feel abandoned and disenfranchised by their so called representatives, and given the state of the industry it’s easy to see the viewpoint.

    I understand that? but when the protests were planned many didnt turn up?


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    #60
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,180 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Can any lad here tell me what is a sustainable beef price. We have heard a lot about a margin above cost of production how much is that what do weanling producers think is a sustainable price for them. There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking​with nobody putting up hard prices.

    We then have the issue of the aims of the beef plan. Why would finishers get involved in an organization who's aims may cause a reduction in price of 60% of the beef produced a static price for 10-20% and a small price for the rest. So I am sorry but I am a non believer that this beef plan is the solution and will do anything for me and may actually have negative conontations for my system.

    At the end of the time the best solution is:

    The setting up of producer's groups backed by legislation which is being proposed at EU level which will force processors to forward price cattle over a 3-4 months period.
    The control of feedlots being directly controlled or contracted to processors being used as market controlling measure's. However even in the last few weeks an ex President of the IFA spoke against this.
    The prevention of market control measure's used by processors to prevent the live trade in cattle.


    After that it would be mainly up to market forces but these measure's would prevent processors manipulation of supplies

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #61
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    How to hedge against Beef Price fluctuations;
    Worth a read.

    http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/3015/hedging-using-futures-price-protection-for-cattle-producers/

    In summary, hedging with futures is one of the marketing tools that can used to forward price a commodity to protect against a movement in the price.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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