Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

03-11-2018 10:09PM

Phen2206 wrote: »

Not that I'm aware of but they've only recently installed around 8-10 ePassport reader machines which are rarely if ever actually working; so in fact they've reduced the amount of desks in passport control for no benefit at all. There's obviously a major issue with the machines.

This reduction in the number of desks and probably lack of staff too all contributed to what you saw last night. Maybe someone here can shed more light.

Multiple airports I’ve been through that have this technology available there has been queues or you aren’t allowed use them, Amsterdam was slow with queues and CDG we weren’t allowed use them mid afternoon and had a long queue to see a human. The aim at Dublin should be to have no queues and have staff waiting, but bosses don’t seem to like have idle staff in Ireland anymore and prefer to have staff overworked instead.

I think as people become more used to them there will be shorter queues. The system I find even when used perfectly is still slow while it checks. Honestly they need to speed the system up so from scan in to booth till doors open the other side is 10 secs or something. It can be that alone to get the reader to scan your passport.

sandbelter · 04-11-2018 12:57AM

Locker10a wrote: »

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What would Aer Lingus fleet expansion mean for Dublin as it's hub airport?

Will we see a lot of spin off growth do you reckon with other connecting airlines?

Seems ambitious.

Whether the DAA can deliver on infrastructure is another matter.

I think infrastructure will really make or break this ambition, they need to get those new piers up ASAP and seriously work on taxiways and planning for taxi routes and stand allocation

I agree infrastructure is the key, I suspect what we have been given is the base case growth scenario as it is silent on the following;

Update on status of AA JV;
Oneworld; and,
Growth via potential future franchise partners.

In an interview SK himself identified eight cities for growth ( Vancouver, [font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Las Vegas, Dallas, Denver, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit and Halifax) [/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif] yet the slide only have five, but he made it abundantly clear in the below interview it was contingent on growth. [/font]
[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Source: [/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]https://www.thejournal.ie/aer-lingus-new-canada-flights-2-4234167-Sep2018/[/font]

NH2013 · 04-11-2018 01:23PM

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-in-pilot-standoff-as-captains-refuse-5000-extra-to-fly-on-their-day-off-37489498.html

Aer Lingus Pilots refusing offers of over €5,000 to work days off.

Not quite fleet related but begs the question if it will impact on Aer Lingus’ ability to crew these expansion plans if the long haul fleet is to more than double over the next 5 years, if current pilots are refusing offers of over €5,000 to work days off.

€5,000 is a lot of money to turn your nose up to surely even for pilots who are very well paid, from what I’ve heard morale and relations between pilots and management are at all time lows, this would seem to back up those claims and explain the hireins and cancellations experienced recently on the Atlantic side of the Airline.

Jack1985 · 04-11-2018 01:29PM

NH2013 wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-in-pilot-standoff-as-captains-refuse-5000-extra-to-fly-on-their-day-off-37489498.html

Aer Lingus Pilots refusing offers of over €5,000 to work days off.

Not quite fleet related but begs the question if it will impact on Aer Lingus’ ability to crew these expansion plans if the long haul fleet is to more than double over the next 5 years, if current pilots are refusing offers of over €5,000 to work days off.

€5,000 is a lot of money to turn your nose up to surely even for pilots who are very well paid, from what I’ve heard morale and relations between pilots and management are at all time lows, this would seem to back up those claims and explain the hireins and cancellations experienced recently on the Atlantic side of the Airline.

It sends a strong message. They are not happy with the chopping and changing of rosters and the effects of working a FTL max Summer. Burnout is affecting crews but EI will tell you they have the correct resources... :rolleyes:

Management relations with frontline staff (Pilots, Cabin Crew, Ground, Line Maintenance list is endless..) is strained with penny pinching and added stresses over the course of the last 3-5 years.

NH2013 · 04-11-2018 01:44PM

Jack1985 wrote: »

It sends a strong message. They are not happy with the chopping and changing of rosters and the effects of working a FTL max Summer. Burnout is affecting crews but EI will tell you they have the correct resources... :rolleyes:

Management relations with frontline staff (Pilots, Cabin Crew, Ground, Line Maintenance list is endless..) is strained with penny pinching and added stresses over the course of the last 3-5 years.

The message is certainly very strong, I’m struggling to wrap my head around the fact that they must have offered multiple pilots on their days off these €5,000 offers to try and crew these flights and they all refused.

I understand and appreciate that time at home with your family can be very important especially for long haul pilots away from home for so many nights a month, but for that many pilots to turn their nose up at €5,000 just for coming in on a day off says an awful lot.

Recalling back to the Ryanair crew issues last year, I think they’re offer was along the lines of €20,000 for working 5 days off, just as a comparison.

A319er · 04-11-2018 01:53PM

Mmm well I never ever want to be on any aircraft where any pilot or cabin crew
Is working their days off. EI are huge,y profitable increase the promotional pipeline and cadet intake in line with fleet expansion.

04-11-2018 02:07PM

It’s not €5000 it is less than €2500 when taxes are paid. Yes it’s still a lot of money to turn down if true.

Jack1985 · 04-11-2018 02:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s not €5000 it is less than €2500 when taxes are paid. Yes it’s still a lot of money to turn down if true.

I had heard the figure 3,500 being banded about.

Mebuntu · 04-11-2018 02:27PM

"A spokeswoman for Aer Lingus said that hire-in aircraft were used on just four sectors out of 70,000 flown so far this year"

Being a little economical with the truth there!

billy few mates · 04-11-2018 05:33PM

The newspaper article suggests they're turning down €5K to give up one day off.
These are Trans Atlantic trips so factor in the night before the trip they won't be going out, two or three days away, a day off to recover afterwards and it's not that attractive. If that €5K is before tax it's even less attractive...

Locker10a · 04-11-2018 08:03PM

billy few mates wrote: »

The newspaper article suggests they're turning down €5K to give up one day off.
These are Trans Atlantic trips so factor in the night before the trip they won't be going out, two or three days away, a day off to recover afterwards and it's not that attractive. If that €5K is before tax it's even less attractive...

It is before tax

rivegauche · 04-11-2018 08:07PM

That news story looks poor for the Union and will limit their ability to garner support of the Public if the situation escalates.

Constructive suggestion:
If they are not too close to 900 hours then maybe they should do like the hospital Consultants and rack up a year or two extra carried over holidays at the end of their career to cover the shortfall. It beats paying over 50% tax and it allows the pilots to either retire early or find another employer on top of retirement for their last few productive years.
edit: 5000 euro is 5000 euro directly in to a pension fund if pension allowances are not maxed out. Maybe somebody isn't selling the idea of overtime to the pilots well enough be it HR or Unions and at 50 a portion can be drawn down. At least Ryanair would hint to their employees of possible tax manoevers which are to the Employees' advantage.

billy few mates · 04-11-2018 08:16PM

rivegauche wrote: »

That news story looks poor for the Union and will limit their ability to garner support of the Public if the situation escalates.

Where does it say anything about the union...?

This seems to be a case of individual pilots turning down a request to work overtime, this sort of thing happens in every walk of life.
There's nothing in that article to suggest it's any sort of an industrial action or union directive and nothing to suggest theres anything to prevent individual pilots taking up the offer if they so wish.
You seem to have a fixation with unions...;)

NH2013 · 04-11-2018 08:19PM

From what I understand it’s not the union behind this, rather the individual pilots themselves not being tempted by the money.

And as the article states I don’t think it’s an issue of hours, Aer Lingus 330 pilots as a rule generally don’t reach the 900 hour limit due to the duration of their sectors being shorter than day BA, KLM or Lufthansa due to Ireland’s proximity to the USA. From what I gather it’s more of a morale and burnout issue following from a long summer, with little let up that means no body is interested in working on days off or giving up free time to give their managers a dig out for messing up the numbers required.

Understandable not wanting to be away from home, especially those with young families, but still difficult to wrap my head around refusals to do so for that amount of money being offered, despite as mentioned the penal amount of tax on it.

rivegauche · 04-11-2018 08:19PM

Where do you think it will end up?
This is a holding company with multiple brands in their stable and they are at the moment being good as gold and leaving Ireland to the green tailed shamrocks.
They won't continue to pay exceptional leases in low season. The Union should be guarding their home turf and twisting arms to get these flights flow.
The Union has a relatively good relationship with their Company and that is worth preserving.

Locker10a · 04-11-2018 08:25PM

rivegauche wrote: »

That news story looks poor for the Union and will limit their ability to garner support of the Public if the situation escalates.

Constructive suggestion:
If they are not too close to 900 hours then maybe they should do like the hospital Consultants and rack up a year or two extra carried over holidays at the end of their career to cover the shortfall. It beats paying over 50% tax and it allows the pilots to either retire early or find another employer on top of retirement for their last few productive years.

I’m speculating here and it’s based on my observations of working in airlines, but it appears EI have probably calculated that’s it’s cheaper to be 1 or 2 pilots short for the scheduled every week or two and offer overtime than actually employ extra pilots. Pilots would be very expensive employees on paper and then theres the cost of their tranining etc
Someone somewhere calculated this as being cheaper for EI but now the pilots are probably sick of constantly being asked to work their days off.

Again from personal observation, captains who’ve been years and years in the job aren’t cash motivated, they earn a very very good salary and have already spent years of their career working around an airline schedule, so it’s absolutely no surprise to me that they aren’t taking up this offer. If your a long haul captain you’re probably looking to work as little as possible, simply because you’re likely to be at a stage where mortgages are paid off, bills are nothing to worry about you want to enjoy life and work less.
So this approach is unlikely to work out for EI

rivegauche · 04-11-2018 08:35PM

If a Consultant can be incentivised to do extra hours then a Pilot can be incentivised if you know what carrots to dangle. Pilots would be paupers in comparison to Hospital Consultants. A tax free payment at 50 and/or early retirement allowing the pilots to retire early to southern Europe and keeping his/her hand in the game in his/her early to mid fifties is an incentive.

kona · 04-11-2018 08:37PM

The issue with the pilots is the exact same in every other section of the company. Staff are getting rode solid and just getting grief in return. Couple that with the amount of tax the government are taking to piss away into the wind, theres an awful lot of worn out and fed up staff.

rivegauche · 04-11-2018 08:39PM

kona wrote: »

The issue with the pilots is the exact same in every other section of the company. Staff are getting rode solid and just getting grief in return. Couple that with the amount of tax the government are taking to piss away into the wind, theres an awful lot of worn out and fed up staff.

are these pilots maximising their pension contributions?
if they are being abused are they not trying to get to retirement day a year or two earlier.

NH2013 · 04-11-2018 08:42PM

rivegauche wrote: »

Where do you think it will end up?
This is a holding company with multiple brands in their stable and they are at the moment being good as gold and leaving Ireland to the green tailed shamrocks.
They won't continue to pay exceptional leases in low season. The Union should be guarding their home turf and twisting arms to get these flights flow.
The Union has a relatively good relationship with their Company and that is worth preserving.

Based on the IAG capital markets presentation from the other day it would appear that Aer Lingus is the star performer amongst the IAG group with the highest operating margin of 17.8% and highest RoIC of 27.9%, based on that I don't think IAG would attempt to disrupt Aer Lingus' DUBHUB strategy and would instead result in two outcomes;

a) You know what you're doing and your stratagey on undercrewing should have worked, it didn't this year but keep up the good work.

or

b) Hire enough more crew next summer to cover the flights you plan to operate.

Given that this has happened a number of times over the last few years I'd hazard a bet that IAG is within camp (a) and are happy that the cost of these hire-in aircraft is worth the reduced cost in pilot numbers overall, even if perhaps it didn't work this year like they might have hoped.

NH2013 · 04-11-2018 08:46PM

rivegauche wrote: »

are these pilots maximising their pension contributions?
if they are being abused are they not trying to get to retirement day a year or two earlier.

To answer your question, yes I believe all Aer Lingus pilots max their pensions to the maximum allowable tax free amount.

rivegauche · 04-11-2018 08:46PM

proposed option c) make option "a" more attractive/attainable through non-monetary inducements.

rivegauche · 04-11-2018 08:47PM

NH2013 wrote: »

To answer your question, yes I believe all Aer Lingus pilots max their pensions out to the pension cap standard fund threshold of €2m prior to retirement.

Do it in 18 years instead of 20.

NH2013 · 04-11-2018 09:08PM

rivegauche wrote: »

proposed option c) make option "a" more attractive/attainable through non-monetary inducements.

What would count as a non-monetary inducement though? They can't offer them more time off as it seems that is the issue they're having the problem with.

Perhaps some morale boosting inducements, but they take time to have an effect and wouldn't kick in overnight. Morale is something that needs to be built over time and notice taken when it starts to slip, once it's gone it take a lot more work to get it back than it takes to maintain it all along.

I mean these are pilots that got an 11% pay rise earlier this year with back pay (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-pilots-back-pay-11-pay-increase-1.3395269 )and they're still feeling undervalued and overworked, says a lot about the atmosphere and culture in the place if everyone's as burnt out and disinterested as it's being made out on here. Clearly money is not the issue the pilots have if they're turning their nose up for €5,000 to work a day off, so what are the "non-monetary inducements" that you'd suggest?

trellheim · 04-11-2018 09:13PM

It was interesting to read that capital markets presentation end to end - many things were mentioned but people strategies did not figure at all except a tiny part in the BA section which probably tells you all you need to.

rivegauche · 04-11-2018 09:29PM

Largest inducement is early retirement by hook or by crook. All my more senior Colleagues want it and it is attractive the employer when done in a controlled fashion as they get more expensive staff off the roster.
My senior Colleagues aren't even looking to continue their careers.
A former Aer Lingus pilot ticking every box like type rating on multiple airframes, line training, ETOPS experience with a few good years left in him or her can get a contract somewhere desirable and at terms that meet their desired level of idleness e.g. 75 or 80%
"Hey Honey, I've been offered a position in <insert Country name with pleasant climate and good quality of life>. We can buy a place as a holiday home and keep the place here in Howth". Will not be greeted by the response "No, it's too hot".

rivegauche · 04-11-2018 09:32PM

Willie Walsh will not be around forever. He will be replaced by someone with less experience of Dublin who will try to sweat the assets and will not be able to justify to themselves leasing in planes when they have planes sitting idle. That is when the Unions will start striking. Find solutions, don't complain about problems.

billy few mates · 05-11-2018 12:08AM

Anyone who's ever worked long haul or extended spells away from home will understand how precious the home time is and how you have to try and cram so much of the ordinary things other people take for granted into the days when you're at home. Everything has to be planned and arranged around the roster and sometimes other things are more important than money. Some people are trying to spin this into some sort of a coordinated union action against the company when it's more likely individuals wanting to spend more time with their families at the end of a long season or not wanting to change their personal plans at short notice to end up giving half of it to the taxman.
We could all do with more money but there has to be a work life balance and it's hard enough to achieve that at times.

sdanseo · 05-11-2018 02:30AM

Are there plans to start replacement of the short haul fleet? A few A320 are starting to go grey at the edges now as well.

smurfjed · 05-11-2018 05:57AM

A hospital consultant can wake up in his own bed every night, attend most family gatherings and special events, and not feel totally drained after work. There comes a point in your life when your values change and quality of life becomes more important than money.
By the sounds of it, EI arent just one or two pilots down, plus I understand that quite a number of foreign pilots headed home as soon as local jobs became available so that also had an impact on crew levels.

Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

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