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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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    #7412
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,385 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    bk wrote: »
    An accident/fire is a more likely threat then terrorism, not that a gate would do anything to stop a terrorist anyway (see London and multiple bombings over the years).
    Yeah I had to laugh at the thought of some lad suited up with a suicide belt deciding against blowing up a dart because he didn't want to buy a ticket for €2


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    #7413
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    You would have other issues around an honour system to do with free access to the underground stations, which is a bigger problem then for on street platforms. Seems like a terrible idea to me.

    If underground stations are still staffed then I don’t see how this will be a problem


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    #7414
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,565 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    AngryLips wrote: »
    If underground stations are still staffed then I don’t see how this will be a problem

    But if they are still staffed then just put in the barriers?


    It does not cost the passenger except point something of a second and it keeps people who shouldn't be there out.

    We don't want the same issues as the red line on the metro basically.


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    #7415
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    But if they are still staffed then just put in the barriers?


    It does not cost the passenger except point something of a second and it keeps people who shouldn't be there out.

    We don't want the same issues as the red line on the metro basically.

    But the barriers aren't used in most DART stations also and it has never stopped anti-social behaviour.

    What has stopped anti social behaviour on the DART is those big security guys patrolling the DART and stations. The person hiding by the plexiglass at the ticket desk does little to improve security from what I've seen. I've seen them look the other way, not my problem, as "people" waltz through gates with no tickets.

    Active patrols, ticket checkers and preferably transport police actually patrolling stations and trains is the only real way to curb anti-scoial behaviour IMO.

    BTW going through most non central London Underground stations, they are mostly unmanned, you won't see any staff at the gates, down the stairs, through the long tunnels and onto the platforms. Of course there are cameras everywhere which are remotely monitored, along with emergency intercoms, basically any sniff of trouble, armed transport police are quickly dispatched to the station, which is why you see so little messing their IMO.

    BTW another point, many of our trouble makers often have free travel anyway, so a gate wouldn't stop them anyway. Not that they wouldn't just jump it anyway.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally against the idea of gates, but I don't think it really solves the problem you have in mind, it is just a distraction. It just slows down the honest commuter, it doesn't do anything to stop the trouble makers.

    The real solution IMO is transport police.


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    #7416
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭Qrt


    bk wrote: »
    BTW going through most non central London Underground stations, they are mostly unmanned, you won't see any staff at the gates, down the stairs, through the long tunnels and onto the platforms. Of course there are cameras everywhere which are remotely monitored, along with emergency intercoms, basically any sniff of trouble, armed transport police are quickly dispatched to the station, which is why you see so little messing their IMO.

    I'm fairly sure all underground stations (the actual underground ones) are staffed, by law they have to be. I remember reading about the Bank DLR extension, and how Bank is the only staffed DLR station due to the fact it's underground.

    Anyway, I just like barriers because they sound cool.


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    #7417
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,565 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    bk wrote: »

    The real solution IMO is transport police.

    Yes, but there seems to be no movement that way.

    What i'm saying is in the absence of that movement toward a proper resourced transport police there should be barriers.

    This is not a mickey mouse Luas line - it's an underground metro.

    A small example

    Have you ever seen the drug users that will walk along the tram line with a tram right behind them unaware and not caring?

    What if, while out of their heads, they wander in to tunnels?

    We can't ignore these issues in the city because they are there in your face everyday in town.

    Unless action is taken on multiple fronts but particularly transport police we need to plan around that unfortunately.

    We have to accept the fact this city is not run and managed properly and never has been. It's a cultural thing. We accept too much nonsense.


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    #7418
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Yes, but there seems to be no movement that way.

    Then fight and campaign for transport police, talk to your local TD's about it.

    Messing around with gates won't fix anything.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Have you ever seen the drug users that will walk along the tram line with a tram right behind them unaware and not caring?

    Most serious drug users have various disabilities, which in turn entitles them to free travel pass, so gates wouldn't stop them anyway, that is the core point. They'll be legally entitled to pass any such gates anyway.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    What if, while out of their heads, they wander in to tunnels?

    Access to the tunnels will be blocked by platform screen doors, which is a whole other matter. If they somehow bypass those, then it will lead to an immediate response, trains stopped and Gardai called to arrest the person for trespassing, etc.

    Trespassing on a segregated railway like this is treated as a very serious manner and I don't see many doing it often once they realise it can mean jail time.
    Qrt wrote:
    I'm fairly sure all underground stations (the actual underground ones) are staffed, by law they have to be. I remember reading about the Bank DLR extension, and how Bank is the only staffed DLR station due to the fact it's underground.

    That could well be the case, I very rarely saw any staff at stations outside the city, but maybe they are in some control room.


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    #7419
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I would think that there should be barriers at the busier stations within the city centre they might not be nessecary outside the city centre mind you. I don't see the need to man the stations mind you let's face does anyone use the ticket office at most suburban DART stations considering they are nearly always closed and most people use leap these days or if buying a ticket or topping up a leap card use the tvms.

    However what I would favour is in busier stations have security there permanently patrolling the station and standing at the barriers to prevent fare dodgers and other potential troublemakers entering the system. Noticed this on the metro in Rome armed as they have security guards standing at the ticket barriers at most busy metro stations. Another security related I would like to see is dog patrols noticed this in other countries and is something which would prevent further troublemakers.


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    #7420
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    Should we all email our TDs just to make our support clear before the next round of consultation? Especially if you live near Ranelagh. We can do it again when the next round is published.


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    #7421
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Irish Times have an article on the Townsend St apartments here.

    The NTA have rightly prioritised the development of a seamless interchange station at Tara St, and a few TDs and councillors are unhappy with the fact that "they are undermining their own consultation". They don't seem to realise that some parts of the plan are open to change, and others simply are not.


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    #7422
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,191 ✭✭✭prunudo


    No infrastructure will ever get built in Dublin if politicians keep sticking their oar in. Sometimes, in order for the greater good and the future development of the city there has to be collateral damage along the way.


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    #7423
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Worrying about terrorism is loopy thinking, there are far better reasons to prefer a barrier system. For all the faults of the DART, anti-social behaviour isn't really one of them, and I've always felt the DART is a much more relaxing ride because of the barriers.

    It doesn't even require that many staff, you look at the likes of the NYC Subway and it's largely one staff member per major station exit (ie. Some of the bigger stations there have two or more exits per station that are very far apart). Metrolink would be even simpler.

    I'm not *opposed* to the honour system, I just think it ends up requiring many more staff than using barriers.

    The LA metro rail system (including underground stations) used the honour system with minimal staff and about the only staff you’d see besides drivers were LA Sheriff officers doing checks on trains or platforms.

    The reason they brought in barriers was terrorism.

    Edit: to be clear: my point here is the system worked just fine as an open one and I recall reading at the time that some of the core people behind it were really against barriers as it removed the open feeling of stations and the vision they had for Metro in LA.


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    #7424
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    According to Eoghan Murphy's website:
    My office met with the National Transport Authority this week to clarify the status of the project. What we were told is:

    – The next phase – the publishing of an updated ‘preferred route’ and a further round of public consultation – will most likely happen in January.

    – It is expected that there will be changes made to the original plan – these changes include the Ranelagh / Rathmines area. Solutions are being considered at the moment but currently nothing has been finalised for the preferred route.

    – The level of feedback to respond to and the necessary design work required for assessing changes are the reasons given for the delay.

    – The project is expected to proceed as follows: another round of public consultation occurs when the updated plan is published; final revisions are made to the scheme; a business case is prepared for Government approval; an Environmental Impact Assessment Report is prepared (this includes how communities will be affected), and finally, if those stages are passed; an application is made to An Bord Pleanála.


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    #7425
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,565 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I know it's pessimistic attitude but this has the usual stench of delay, delay, delay until it's never actually built due to a recession or whatever.

    In my opinion deadlines should be iron clad and heads should roll every time a deadline is not met.

    This flippant "ah sure, it will be January now *probably*" is not good enough.


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    #7426
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I know it's pessimistic attitude but this has the usual stench of delay, delay, delay until it's never actually built due to a recession or whatever.

    In my opinion deadlines should be iron clad and heads should roll every time a deadline is not met.

    This flippant "ah sure, it will be January now *probably*" is not good enough.

    The NTA are very short staffed at the moment, and that's one of the main reasons why everything is being delayed. One of the other main reasons is that infrastructure is politic. The NTA could design the best thing in the world with a price tag of a pittance, and if the politicians don't like it, then it's dead in the water.

    As it is, there hasn't actually been that much political blowback on Metrolink, fingers crossed that continues to be true.


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    #7427
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    I would agree, also the fact that they're listing reasons for delays as engineering alternative options is a good sign I think. Although I hope that they're not being bullied by the Ranelagh TDs into abandoning the Green Line upgrade given it seems to be sorely needed.

    The fact that they're taking this round very seriously and clearly trying to iron out any issues before going out again seems like a very good sign.

    Given they only have about 50 staff (+ consultants of course) how they could be organising Metro, BusConnects corridors, network etc, Dart expansion, Galway ring road, Cork-Limerick Motorway on top of everything else that they have to do day-to-day anyway is beyone me.


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    #7428
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII have tendered for legal services for the project

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=137420&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

    €17.5m over 10 years


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    #7429
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    marno21 wrote: »
    TII have tendered for legal services for the project

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=137420&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

    €17.5m over 10 years

    Whoever gets it will earn their money, I'd say.


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    #7430
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,565 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    How is this going to work with Luas?

    I presume with the green line upgraded it won't be luas anymore?

    Or what way is this all going to work!?

    Does that mean we also have to change Luas CC and the red line as well??

    What about the Sandyford Luas depot as well?


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    #7431
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    How is this going to work with Luas?

    I presume with the green line upgraded it won't be luas anymore?

    Or what way is this all going to work!?

    Does that mean we also have to change Luas CC and the red line as well??

    What about the Sandyford Luas depot as well?

    TheNorthern section of the Green Line will terminate where the Metrolink emerges from the soil. It will remain as is from there (Charlemont or further south) on its slow wander through the City Centre. Red Line will see no change. The current Green Line south of Sandyford will become a separate line, using the Sandyford depot, sharing it with Metrolink.


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    #7432
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Metro update from Eoghan Murphy

    http://www.eoghanmurphy.ie/2018/10/26/metro-update-2/

    Updated route to be published in January

    NTA currently working on changes in Ranelagh/Rathmines


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    #7433
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Just got an email there from TII:
    Dear Sir or Madam,

    In May 2018 you made a submission to Transport Infrastructure Ireland about the Emerging Preferred Route for MetroLink.

    There was huge interest in the project and we were very pleased to receive a high volume of submissions. The MetroLink engineering designers have been studying them all carefully and as a result, are making some design changes to take into account the concerns raised and suggestions made.

    As a result, the process is taking longer than we anticipated, so this is to let you know that our second non-statutory consultation will take place early in the new year.

    We are very grateful for your interest in MetroLink and hope that the level of detail we’ll be able to provide at our next discussion will prove beneficial. In the meantime, we appreciate your patience.

    We’ll be in contact once the latest designs are finalised and we can confirm a new date for the next round of consultations.

    Kind Regards

    Suzanne Angley

    Stakeholder Communications Co-ordinator


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    #7434
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Just got an email there from TII:

    Be great if it was "January Early" rather than "April Early".


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    #7435
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Rural broadband scheme seems to be quietly canned. That was foreseeable of course because the task was undeliverable from day 1, the scope is just too big and the costs too high.

    I remain to be convinced that metro won't be canned for made-up reasons such as the Ranelagh-Berlin wall and so on.


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    #7436
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Metrolink article in the Irish Times:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/metro-route-decision-delayed-until-next-year-1.3680830

    According to this, the tunnel will now continue south past Dunville Avenue to stop the apparent transition of Ranelagh into a 1980s east German ghetto.

    Mobhi Road station to be built on Home Farm grounds.


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    #7437
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    Got the email from Metrolink this morning about the delay. Getting sorta worried now; nimbyism and the associated parish pump polticians could actually scupper the whole thing. That 'Rethink Metrolink' seems to be getting a lot of press, as is that building that may have to be demolished plus Na Fianna's pitch/Glasnevin school... All the potential negatives are shouting louder than the many benefits.

    Time to have vocal, citizens group to promote the postives?


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    #7438
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    marno21 wrote: »
    According to this, the tunnel will now continue south past Dunville Avenue to stop the apparent transition of Ranelagh into a 1980s east German ghetto.

    It isn't surprising, options for just south of Dunville Avenua were considered as part of the tie-in report and those options came just a close second to the Charlemont tie-in. The only difference, was that they were a little bit more expensive. But given the opposition, a very solid plan B.


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    #7439
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I'd be concerned that there wouldn't be proper interchange between luas an metro at Ranelagh/beachwood. The Charlemont option left the luas and metro stops quite accessible to each other.


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    #7440
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    If the tunnel portal is now south of Dunville Avenue, is the Luas proposed to run as far as Beechwood? Is there proposals for underground stations between Charlemont and Beechwood?


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    #7441
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    marno21 wrote: »
    If the tunnel portal is now south of Dunville Avenue, is the Luas proposed to run as far as Beechwood? Is there proposals for underground stations between Charlemont and Beechwood?

    I'd assume they are looking at either Option 6 or 6(A) now. My comments are based on those, of course they might go with a variation on these now.

    Yes, the Luas would run as far as Beechwood.

    They don't mention extra stations and I don't see why there would be a need for one. Someone at Charlemont heading to the Airport would just get the Luas to Stephens Green and transfer to Metrolink there.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    I'd be concerned that there wouldn't be proper interchange between luas an metro at Ranelagh/beachwood. The Charlemont option left the luas and metro stops quite accessible to each other.

    Both option 6 and 6A have interchanges with the Luas at Beechwood. Option 6 have the stations right next to one another. Option 6A mentions a 10m walk.


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