Smart Voting

whisky_galore · 29-10-2018 08:52AM

If it isn't broken, why fix it?

People weren't arsed turning out. Bank hol weekend, lacklustre campaign and candidates for a, let's be honest, a largely ceremonial posting with little power. Oh and a referendum which was a slam dunk.

29-10-2018 10:57AM

twinytwo wrote: »

Nope way too easily manipulated/hacked etc

In fairness, if manipulating or attempting to manipulate voting were an offence, the media would be banned. Which is actually a genuinely great idea if we want to abolish in-bred, oligarch-owned, rightwing cliques and low-tax-for-the-rich agendas and instead promote democracy.

dulpit · 29-10-2018 11:13AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In fairness, if manipulating or attempting to manipulate voting were an offence, the media would be banned. Which is actually a genuinely great idea if we want to abolish in-bred, oligarch-owned, rightwing cliques and low-tax-for-the-rich agendas and instead promote democracy.

29-10-2018 11:16AM

dulpit wrote: »

Stunningly original of you. So, tell us, how many people own the vast majority of the national newspapers in Britain? 4? 5? 3? And in Ireland? 1? And if you don't think they're oozing in agendas you haven't been very attentive at all.

kneemos · 29-10-2018 11:24AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Stunningly original of you. So, tell us, how many people own the vast majority of the national newspapers in Britain? 4? 5? 3? And in Ireland? 1? And if you don't think they're oozing in agendas you haven't been very attentive at all.

Newspapers are so twentieth century.

Capt'n Midnight · 29-10-2018 11:27AM

dulpit wrote: »

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Tin_foil_hat_2.jpg

An MIT study found that tin-foil hats amplified "radio bands reserved for government use" rather than blocking signals.

They also make you easier to find using radar.

Collie D · 29-10-2018 11:31AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

An MIT study found that tin-foil hats amplified "radio bands reserved for government use" rather than blocking signals.

They also make you easier to find using radar.

I actually Googled that because I was afraid of looking foolish by asking in here.

I love their reasoning: A desire to play with some expensive equipment

Mint Sauce · 29-10-2018 11:38AM

Not sure Smart voting would encourge more to vote. If you dont want to, or not interested, with a smart app, you probably still wont. People will probably still forget to, or what if their ISP or Mobile Operator is down that day. Keep it they way it is.

kneemos wrote: »

Sites such as eBay, Amazon or your bank etc can maintain security, don't see why a voting site couldn't.

You would be surprised probably how often information is stolen or hacked. Companies dont release this information, beacuse they know they would lose custom if they did.

AndrewJRenko · 29-10-2018 12:20PM

Mr.S wrote: »

Home/eVoting (whatever you want to call it) would definitely improve voter turnout.

Would it definitely? Because the trials done in the UK on mobile voting, kiosk voting, TV voting showed no increase in turnout.

Mr.S wrote: »

The current system is fine, it works, but if the technology is there why not add a new way to vote?

Because it costs money, doesn't solve any particular problem, and puts election results in the hands of private companies.

JohnnyFlash · 29-10-2018 12:23PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In fairness, if manipulating or attempting to manipulate voting were an offence, the media would be banned. Which is actually a genuinely great idea if we want to abolish in-bred, oligarch-owned, rightwing cliques and low-tax-for-the-rich agendas and instead promote democracy.

Banning the media would be good for democracy? You smoking something, dude?

Capt'n Midnight · 29-10-2018 12:39PM

Collie D wrote: »

I actually Googled that because I was afraid of looking foolish by asking in here.

I love their reasoning: A desire to play with some expensive equipment

evoting machines leak. By scanning the RF emissions one group was able to get clues as to what was being displayed on the screen.

Only possible because the evoting industry doesn't have security at it's core.

Also you have to consider who is paying them, it's not like all politicians and all big businesses are totally honest.

As Juvenal pointed out 2,000 years ago - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

GreeBo · 29-10-2018 01:27PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

evoting machines leak. By scanning the RF emissions one group was able to get clues as to what was being displayed on the screen.

Only possible because the evoting industry doesn't have security at it's core.

you are still fixated on actual hardware I see

Also you have to consider who is paying them, it's not like all politicians and all big businesses are totally honest.

As Juvenal pointed out 2,000 years ago - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

These the same custodes who are looking after your boxes of paper yeah?:rolleyes:

AndrewJRenko · 29-10-2018 01:32PM

GreeBo wrote: »

you are still fixated on actual hardware I see

These the same custodes who are looking after your boxes of paper yeah?:rolleyes:

Do you have any solution to offer, one that doesn't facilitate vote selling or duress voting?

29-10-2018 01:43PM

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Banning the media would be good for democracy? You smoking something, dude?

As the biggest fan of the Sunday Independent - ha - on this website, I'm sure you can tell us how the "in-bred, oligarch-owned, rightwing cliques and low-tax-for-the-rich agendas" of the people who own and run the media are good for democracy?

kneemos · 29-10-2018 02:08PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As the biggest fan of the Sunday Independent - ha - on this website, I'm sure you can tell us how the "in-bred, oligarch-owned, rightwing cliques and low-tax-for-the-rich agendas" of the people who own and run the media are good for democracy?

The top 20% of earners pay around 70% of tax in Ireland.
Piss poor job they're making of their agendas.

AndrewJRenko · 29-10-2018 02:11PM

kneemos wrote: »

The top 20% of earners pay around 70% of tax in Ireland.
Piss poor job they're making of their agendas.

When you say 'tax', you really mean 'income tax', right? What happens to your 20% stat if you consider the big picture, including VAT for example?

Agent Smith · 29-10-2018 02:18PM

kneemos wrote: »

We know the elderly are dedicated voters,younger generation not so much. They even avoid holidays to hold elections to ensure a lower left/student outcome.

Since 2011 All votes have taken place on either Friday or Saturday. I call Bull on this claim.

I dont think Electronic voting will be trusted here, for a long time, either remotely or at the polling station.

To increase voter turnout, Other methods can be used, such as Offering more people postal votes, allowing proxy voting, Extending the polling time.

kneemos · 29-10-2018 02:26PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

When you say 'tax', you really mean 'income tax', right? What happens to your 20% stat if you consider the big picture, including VAT for example?

Income tax,PRSI and USC.

AndrewJRenko · 29-10-2018 02:36PM

kneemos wrote: »

Income tax,PRSI and USC.

And what happens when you include VAT, which brings in nearly as much as income tax overall?

kneemos · 29-10-2018 02:45PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And what happens when you include VAT, which brings in nearly as much as income tax overall?

Tax is based on income. You can't have a higher VAT rate for high earners.
Presumably the 20% proportionally pay more than their fair share.

Is your argument that the oligarchs are encouraging voters to vote for higher VAT rates?

JohnnyFlash · 29-10-2018 03:39PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As the biggest fan of the Sunday Independent - ha - on this website, I'm sure you can tell us how the "in-bred, oligarch-owned, rightwing cliques and low-tax-for-the-rich agendas" of the people who own and run the media are good for democracy?

Get down off that soapbox. Explain how banning the media would be good for the plain people of Ireland? What would you suggest we replace it with?

You seem to massively overstate the influence of your bogeymen on society, and to underestimate the ability of people to discern what is happening in the world around them.

Indeed, you’ve such extreme notions and opinions on the insidious nature of Perfidious Albion (can’t do italics like yourself), the ‘right wing media’, and other threats to the ideological purity of Ireland, that you end up portraying us as gormless and feckless idiots that wouldn’t look out of place in a Punch cartoon from the 19th century.

AndrewJRenko · 29-10-2018 03:48PM

kneemos wrote: »

Tax is based on income. You can't have a higher VAT rate for high earners.
Presumably the 20% proportionally pay more than their fair share.

Is your argument that the oligarchs are encouraging voters to vote for higher VAT rates?

Income tax is based on income. Other taxes have different bases.

For VAT, presumably lower earners pay a much higher proportion of their overall income, given that ALL of their income is spent, and spent locally. No investments, no pensions - just spending.

My arguement is the victimhood of the higher earners is slightly overplayed.

Capt'n Midnight · 29-10-2018 04:59PM

GreeBo wrote: »

you are still fixated on actual hardware I see

If the hardware isn't secure it means that evoting falls at the first hurdle.

At least with paper I know that my vote physically exists. And I can see it going into a sealed box.

With evoting there is nothing.

These the same custodes who are looking after your boxes of paper yeah?:rolleyes:

Sealed boxes.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/art-of-the-tallyman-returns-to-centre-stage-at-vote-counts-93540.html

Tallymen match the official counters “almost one-for-one” according to Mr Sherwin. Arriving at centres at about eight o’clock in the morning, they start their work before counting even begins.

Their first job is to observe ballot papers as they are removed from the box, unfolded and laid out face up to prepare them for counting.

“The staff will often open the paper and face it towards the tally people; that’s a real benefit,” says Sherwin.

Truckermal · 29-10-2018 05:04PM

Totally against it! Nothing like going voting then call for a few pints on the way home!

GreeBo · 29-10-2018 08:18PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If the hardware isn't secure it means that evoting falls at the first hurdle.

At least with paper I know that my vote physically exists. And I can see it going into a sealed box.

With evoting there is nothing.

Only if you are determine to insist that "smart voting" means a voting machine.
If you go back and read my post you will see that a machine is not required, everyone uses their own.

With a blockchain solution your vote also exists, cannot be tampered with and will remain for you and only you to check until the end of your days.

Sealed boxes.

Sealed code.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/art-of-the-tallyman-returns-to-centre-stage-at-vote-counts-93540.html

[/quote]
Yeah! More humans involved, thats always makes things better.
Humans are susceptible to bribery, mistakes and god knows what else.
Code just runs.

AndrewJRenko · 29-10-2018 08:23PM

GreeBo wrote: »

With a blockchain solution your vote also exists, cannot be tampered with and will remain for you and only you to check until the end of your days.

So you can definitely sell your vote then? Or be pressurised by your spouse or parent or employer to vote in a particular way?

Individual polling booths are there for good reason.

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah! More humans involved, thats always makes things better.
Humans are susceptible to bribery, mistakes and god knows what else.

The nature of vote counting (which you genuinely seem to know very little about) is that you have opposing 'forces' monitoring each other. So all parties are present, all watching each other, all making sure that no other party gets an unfair advantage. Multiple people with different incentives monitoring each other and monitoring the process.

xckjoo · 30-10-2018 01:21PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Only if you are determine to insist that "smart voting" means a voting machine.
If you go back and read my post you will see that a machine is not required, everyone uses their own.

With a blockchain solution your vote also exists, cannot be tampered with and will remain for you and only you to check until the end of your days.

Sealed code.

If you can't get it secure on dedicated hardware, how would you expect it to be secure in software only? I think you underestimate the difference between theory and practice with this kind of thing.

If this is just about increasing voter turnout, why not make voting mandatory like they do in Australia? >90% turnout for most votes!

whisky_galore · 30-10-2018 01:56PM

Mr.S wrote: »

Should we not always be looking at ways to improve things? If everyone followed that attitude we'd be stuck in the stone ages still

Home/eVoting (whatever you want to call it) would definitely improve voter turnout.

The current system is fine, it works, but if the technology is there why not add a new way to vote?

This is Ireland.
It's almost expected now that any new thing rolled out is half arsed, not fit for purpose and money pissed down the drain with no accountability.

El_Duderino 09 · 30-10-2018 02:04PM

Yes. A thousand times yes.

We use security measures in all walks of life. I use online banking and I consider my money to be important to me so why not vote by phone?

Any form of voting can be hacked. Make it as secure as possible and move on.

I also think polling stations should be open for more than one day to give easy access to more people who aren’t free that day. Polling should be open across the weekdays and weekend make sure it covers as many people’s time off work as possible.

Imagine if voting was easy for people other than retired old people. We might actually get politicians to care about young people and their needs. As it stands the best single demographic to aim for is the old people because they’re the ones most likely to vote.

Open voting by phone and open polling stations for 5-7 days for a vote. That would get your turnout up.

AndrewJRenko · 30-10-2018 02:22PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

This is Ireland.
It's almost expected now that any new thing rolled out is half arsed, not fit for purpose and money pissed down the drain with no accountability.

Are you sure about that? Because when they public international league tables on digitalisation and eGovernment, Ireland tends to rank fairly highly. There have been major developments by Revenue, SUSI, EPA, motortax.ie and many other public bodies that get no publicity because they basically work. You'll read lots in the paper and the thejournal about the few controversial projects, but they won't tell about what's working right.

But certainly, if we were to go down the 'online voting' route without any clear business case as to what problem we're trying to solve or any understanding of the challenges of the conflicting requirements for anonymity and auditibility of counting, we would certainly be pi$$ing more money down the drain.

Smart Voting

Comments