Dogs and babies

seannash · 27-10-2018 12:18AM

wexie wrote: »

....So let me get this right?

If you had a small baby (I'm going to guess that you don't) and see a potential but remote danger to it, a danger you can turn from remote into none very easily.

You think that taking that action is extreme?

Little things like not leaving medicine around the house, it's unlikely the child will be able to open them right?

Or getting an approved car seat? "I've never had an accident before, the odds are minuscule'?

Or getting a fire guard? I mean chances are baby won't actually climb in the fire after all.

5 month old, 2 dogs.
Car seats over 6 months old have been proven no more affective than a seat belt (great ted talk on that)but in your view I should never drive as the potential of a crash is so remote I shouldn't risk it. yes I view it as extreme but I get your point.
I don't know what to say to people like yourself.
Assuming the worst case scenario, it's quite frankly an awful view to have on life.
But yes, ill concede your overly unfounded approach is without a shadow of a doubt the safest because it completely removed all risk whether it's evidence based or not. But we simply do not apply that standard to every aspect of life.

Now does the OP have a reason to be concerned? In your way of parenting yes he does. Should he say anything, absolutely not and if he dared tell me what I should be doing with my dogs and baby based on a Facebook post id laugh in their face.

Cato the Elder · 27-10-2018 05:45AM

Never understood letting a biggish dog close to a baby. I wouldn't say it's bad parenting, but it does seem too risky. My friend's dog recently bit an old woman out of nowhere. You just never know.

Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.

steddyeddy · 27-10-2018 05:56AM

seannash wrote: »

5 month old, 2 dogs.
Car seats over 6 months old have been proven no more affective than a seat belt (great ted talk on that)but in your view I should never drive as the potential of a crash is so remote I shouldn't risk it. yes I view it as extreme but I get your point.
I don't know what to say to people like yourself.
Assuming the worst case scenario, it's quite frankly an awful view to have on life.
But yes, ill concede your overly unfounded approach is without a shadow of a doubt the safest because it completely removed all risk whether it's evidence based or not. But we simply do not apply that standard to every aspect of life.

Now does the OP have a reason to be concerned? In your way of parenting yes he does. Should he say anything, absolutely not and if he dared tell me what I should be doing with my dogs and baby based on a Facebook post id laugh in their face.

I would dare tell anyone who places an abused, nervous dog with a newborn child.

Sheepdish1 · 27-10-2018 06:22AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A friend of mine has recently given birth to a baby girl. She also has a rescue dog that she's rehabilitating. The dog is gentle but is quite large and jumpy. Somehow she thinks it's a good idea to post pics of the dog and the newborn beside each other on the couch.

I don't think that's particularly safe butwhat really gets me is the uploaded picture. I know a few people who do this and I get the impression they're trying to provoke a reaction. Should babies ever be left alone with dogs?

A newborn to a dog is quite confusing, they squirm, smell different, make strange noises and move different. Not a hope I’d be leaving a newborn out of arms reach with any dog no matter what the size, temperment, breed, background etc.

Imo if someone is on the couch with them that’s no problem but its stupid and really unfair on the dog as of course it’s to blame if it hurts the baby even accidentally. They are just so delicate when small and dogs can’t rationalise like humans. It’s not fair to expect them to.

It’s not your baby so you’ll be in hot water for saying anything. People upload stupid things all the time. The ones where people think dogs are protecting babies when they are actually resource gaurding makes me shudder.

Discodog · 27-10-2018 08:49AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I would dare tell anyone who places an abused, nervous dog with a newborn child.

Yet again you post about a subject that you clearly know little about but also that you will ignore the opinion of others who do.

In the previous threads, on this subject, very few people have ever suggested that you leave a baby alone with a dog - mainly for the sake of a dog.

We get it that you don't like dogs & your dislike prevents you listening to other opinion. But Ireland is changing. The old ignorance & abuse of dogs is reducing. Dogs are becoming part of the family rather than thrown out in the garden.

Now did you post because of the photo, of which there are thousands online or because you wanted to start another anti dog thread ?

Discodog · 27-10-2018 08:50AM

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

A newborn to a dog is quite confusing, they squirm, smell different, make strange noises and move different. Not a hope I’d be leaving a newborn out of arms reach with any dog no matter what the size, temperment, breed, background etc.

Imo if someone is on the couch with them that’s no problem but its stupid and really unfair on the dog as of course it’s to blame if it hurts the baby even accidentally. They are just so delicate when small and dogs can’t rationalise like humans. It’s not fair to expect them to.

It’s not your baby so you’ll be in hot water for saying anything. People upload stupid things all the time. The ones where people think dogs are protecting babies when they are actually resource gaurding makes me shudder.

Who took the photo - another dog ?

steddyeddy · 27-10-2018 10:30AM

Discodog wrote: »

Yet again you post about a subject that you clearly know little about but also that you will ignore the opinion of others who do.

In the previous threads, on this subject, very few people have ever suggested that you leave a baby alone with a dog - mainly for the sake of a dog.

We get it that you don't like dogs & your dislike prevents you listening to other opinion. But Ireland is changing. The old ignorance & abuse of dogs is reducing. Dogs are becoming part of the family rather than thrown out in the garden.

Now did you post because of the photo, of which there are thousands online or because you wanted to start another anti dog thread ?

To be honest D you consider anyone who disagrees with your attitudes towards handling dogs as being anti-dog. That's an ideaology you're coming from rather than one or expertise.

Discodog · 27-10-2018 11:45AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

To be honest D you consider anyone who disagrees with your attitudes towards handling dogs as being anti-dog. That's an ideaology you're coming from rather than one or expertise.

Have you ever considered trying to educate or rationalise your fear ? Dogs Trust do some excellent courses as do the DSPCA.

You already know that I support & encourage responsible dog ownership. The photo doesn't suggest that the dog was left alone with the baby.

steddyeddy · 27-10-2018 12:13PM

Discodog wrote: »

Have you ever considered trying to educate or rationalise your fear ? Dogs Trust do some excellent courses as do the DSPCA.

You already know that I support & encourage responsible dog ownership. The photo doesn't suggest that the dog was left alone with the baby.

Hey DD instead I'd suggest reading my posts. I have no fear of dogs. Just wary of placing infants who aren't socialised with dogs with dogs that are nervous around humans. The baby and dog have been left alone for small periods of time.

Discodog · 27-10-2018 12:17PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

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Hey DD instead I'd suggest reading my posts. I have no fear of dogs. Just

?

One eyed Jack · 27-10-2018 12:18PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't think that's particularly safe butwhat really gets me is the uploaded picture. I know a few people who do this and I get the impression they're trying to provoke a reaction. Should babies ever be left alone with dogs?

Do you mean trying to provoke a reaction from the dog, to show that the dog doesn’t react, or do you mean trying to provoke a reaction from people who think the people who disagree with the idea of dogs being left alone with small children?

Personally I think anyone who puts pictures up looking for a negative reaction is an idiot, but people who have dogs and small children? There’s no issue there as far as I’m concerned. It wouldn’t concern me in the slightest tbh.

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's everyone's business if a kid is put in potential danger.

I don’t agree with that at all. Have you called your local social worker and expressed your concerns that a child is as you see the situation, at risk? If not, why not, if you consider it everyone’s business. I don’t btw, just to be clear.

seannash wrote: »

There you go OP, you've found what you were looking for. Justification of your point of view, now go lambaste your friend and tell her shes an unfit mother.

or........
Just mind your business.....
But what to do with all your unused outrage....... i feel for you on that one.

Calm your tits mate. Neither eddy nor wexie nor anyone else suggested anyone was an unfit mother. The question was about leaving dogs alone with children, not about whether anyone who does so is an unfit mother. And when someone posts something on social media, it’s that person is responsible for making it everyone else’s business. People are reacting because that person has made it their business by making the images public. Some people won’t react at all, some people will, and how those people who react will react, can be unpredictable. Bit like leaving dogs and babies alone - I wouldn’t personally, because they’re both unpredictable as fcuk, but if someone else does - their dog, their child, their responsibility.

Discodog · 27-10-2018 12:25PM

Really irresponsible owners here:

wexie · 27-10-2018 12:34PM

Discodog wrote: »

Really irresponsible owners here:

Ah now, are you really telling me you don't see the difference between a service dog that's gone through incredibly rigorous training and numerous assessments and a rescue dog with an unknown history of abuse?

Dogs are fabulous creatures and personally I think every child should have one or more canine buddies in their lives.

But let's not pretend that dogs with a history of abuse are just 'dogs'. They need extra care and vigilance and experienced owners.

Discodog · 27-10-2018 12:38PM

wexie wrote: »

Ah now, are you really telling me you don't see the difference between a service dog that's gone through incredibly rigorous training and numerous assessments and a rescue dog with an unknown history of abuse?

Dogs are fabulous creatures and personally I think every child should have one or more canine buddies in their lives.

But let's not pretend that dogs with a history of abuse are just 'dogs'. They need extra care and vigilance and experienced owners.

I agree. I haven't even seen the photo, let alone the history of the dog or the behaviorists report - just speculation. But enough to apparently condemn the owners. No one has answered how the photo could be taken if the dog is alone with the child. Is it trained to take selfies ?

wexie · 27-10-2018 12:48PM

Discodog wrote: »

I agree. I haven't even seen the photo, let alone the history of the dog or the behaviorists report - just speculation. But enough to apparently condemn the owners. No one has answered how the photo could be taken if the dog is alone with the child. Is it trained to take selfies ?

I haven't condemned the owner (although some people clearly read more into my posts than I intend for there to be) in any shape way or form.

In the simplest of forms this is what I would say :

Yes, dogs with a history of abuse are absolutely and unequivocally worth rehabilitating* (there's that word again) and that can (usually) be done to the point where they can be great family members.

But taking on that task needs to be done with care and consideration, by experienced owners who understand what they are taking on and quite frankly I would condemn any rescue that fails to distinguish between the requirements of a rescue dog needing rehoming and an abuse case that needs rehabilitating.

*I have two myself, one of those I would not have trusted with my children when they were younger, and if you are the poster I'm thinking of, with the experience I'm thinking of you would be lying if you told me that you wouldn't think the same having assessed the dog at the time.

wexie · 27-10-2018 12:49PM

Discodog wrote: »

I agree. I haven't even seen the photo, let alone the history of the dog or the behaviorists report - just speculation. But enough to apparently condemn the owners. No one has answered how the photo could be taken if the dog is alone with the child. Is it trained to take selfies ?

And just to clarify, I have no issues with a picture being taken with a child and a (happy, well adjusted) dog on a couch. Mine are on the couch with or under the dogs pretty regularly.

I just queried as to what the dog was being rehabilitated for and expressed a concern if it was for abuse.

steddyeddy · 27-10-2018 06:15PM

Discodog wrote: »

?

Sorry D. The post was meant to be:

I have no fear of dogs. I don't like the thought of leaving an abused dog alone with a newborn. If there's training to suggests this is a good idea I'd rather not go thanks.

Discodog · 27-10-2018 06:18PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry D. The post was meant to be:

I have no fear of dogs. I don't like the thought of leaving an abused dog alone with a newborn. If there's training to suggests this is a good idea I'd rather not go thanks.

I was asking for the photo, the evidence that the owner is irresponsible & the evidence/description of the abuse - as per your OP

One eyed Jack · 27-10-2018 06:39PM

Discodog wrote: »

I was asking for the photo, the evidence that the owner is irresponsible & the evidence/description of the abuse - as per your OP

The opening post was surely an example of the idea itself, rather than commenting specifically on any particular case. It’s not a good idea IMO to leave children and animals alone simply because both are unpredictable. Both require supervision. It can’t be that difficult to understand.

Paddy Cow · 27-10-2018 06:56PM

Discodog wrote: »

Really irresponsible owners here:

That's a trained service dog with an older child, not a jumpy rescue around a newborn.

super_furry · 27-10-2018 06:58PM

I just wouldn’t take the chance myself. Babies love biting everything and putting whatever they can grab in their mouth, even the most placid dog could snap if a baby bites their tail.

Discodog · 27-10-2018 07:30PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The opening post was surely an example of the idea itself, rather than commenting specifically on any particular case. It’s not a good idea IMO to leave children and animals alone simply because both are unpredictable. Both require supervision. It can’t be that difficult to understand.

Well it's an idea that's been discussed at length here before by the OP. It's pretty obvious that you don't leave young children & animals alone together.

Dravokivich · 27-10-2018 07:49PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I wouldn't have a baby around a dog, supervised or not. It only takes a split second for a dog to turn and there's no way of knowing if they will. Usually when you hear of these attacks it's always a lovely family dog who had never bitten anyone previously.

Dogs give plenty of warning. I wouldn't leave kids near them, because they more then likely don't understand it.

My son has taken about 3 years to learn how to recognise when one of our dogs is feeling unsettled.

steddyeddy · 27-10-2018 09:10PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Dogs give plenty of warning. I wouldn't leave kids near them, because they more then likely don't understand it.

My son has taken about 3 years to learn how to recognise when one of our dogs is feeling unsettled.

And that's what some people are missing. It doesn't have to be the dog thst instigates it. It could be the kid who does something unpredictable and the dog reacts. It's a rescue dog.

steddyeddy · 27-10-2018 09:36PM

I'd also dispute the sentiment that you know what your dog will do 100% of the time. It's a very arrogant position to take.

Sheepdish1 · 27-10-2018 10:39PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Dogs give plenty of warning. I wouldn't leave kids near them, because they more then likely don't understand it.

My son has taken about 3 years to learn how to recognise when one of our dogs is feeling unsettled.

Yep dogs do give plenty of warning however a lot of people don’t read these signals hence why most bites “happen out of the blue”

Sheepdish1 · 27-10-2018 10:44PM

Discodog wrote: »

Really irresponsible owners here:

I think it’s daft to compare this to a large jumpy dog lying beside a newborn on a couch.

Maybe the owner was on the couch with them or maybe she wasn’t. It hasn’t been made clear.

it’s completely different scenario due to the fact a newborn is so tiny and therefor quite Vulnerable.

It doesn’t even matter what breed or temperment it is, dogs can be unpredictable. I’ve seen a family members dog who has a lovely temperament change to defence mode in a second for some reason not known to me.

As stated, it’s not something I’d Be personally comfortable with but I don’t think I’d tell someone else what to do with their baby ðŸ˜Š

Ray Palmer · 28-10-2018 08:44AM

I have two dogs one I would not trust to be left with a child because if he was cornered in any way he would react strongly but I doubt he would bite.

The other is absolutely harmless adores babies and children and she keeps the other dog away from them. Still wouldn't leave her alone with them but if it was my child I would probably would.

For the talk of a dog will suddenly react to a tail pull or some other rough treatment I can say she has put up with it along with being poked in the eye and she was absolutely fine. She sees a baby or child as different to adults and seems to particularly like them. She is much more friendly to children than adults. She is a rescue and I have no idea about her upbringing other than she is incredibly friendly and passive. Even if she sees something she doesn't like she stands back from it and barks while backing away.

She was used in the rescue centre to calm down nervous dogs due to her mothering nature. I have had a lot of dogs and I genuinely see her as the exception but growing up there were dogs and babies about without any issue. It really depends on the dog.

kylith · 28-10-2018 06:36PM

I have a largish, jumpy rescue dog and a new baby. The dog has never shown any aggression toward humans and has never, afaik, been abused.

I have put a lot of effort into getting the dog to be calm when the baby is crying. There is always someone between the dog and the baby. If there is a reason that I have to put the baby in her basket and do something that means I will not be physically beside her the dog is locked in his crate. The dog and the baby are never alone together.

I trust my dog to act like a dog, and a nervous one at that. Babies are unpredictable; they make random flailing movements and make noises that sound very like a dog's squeaky toy. It is not, imo, fair to put a dog in a position where it may react badly to something the baby does.

Paddy Cow · 28-10-2018 08:26PM

Dog kills 3 day old baby on bed with the parents.

The above scenario while rare, is what the op is getting at. Even if you are beside the dog and baby, if the dog gets a fright and over reacts it can do fatal damage to a baby in seconds. What I find bizarre about that article is that the dog wasn't put to sleep and the parents are given 10 days to reclaim it. As if they'd want it back :eek:

I have dogs who are allowed on the couch and bed but no way would I continue that if I had a baby. Obviously I wouldn't wait until the baby was born to stop them doing this as it would lead to jealousy. You're supposed to start training them while pregnant to respect the baby's boundaries.

Dogs and babies

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