Dublin 15 schools to be shut down over structural defects

thomasj · 23-10-2018 05:33PM #1

Just breaking on RTE now

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2018/1023/1006092-school-buildings/

Tyrrelstown educate together and at lukes mulhuddart are the two schools in question .

Hurrache · 23-10-2018 06:12PM

The same building, big impact. Issues were found a long time ago within the building, not sure if they're related and they didn't realise the full extent until the concentrated survey today after similar issues found in schools built by the same builder.

hotmail.com · 23-10-2018 06:28PM

LCC and Scoil Choilm built by the same guys. Dreadful news.

AlanG · 24-10-2018 01:45PM

An engineer on the pat kenny show this morning was saying that there is a good chance they may be able to fence off the perimeter of the building and put safety scaffolding over the doors to allow occupation to continue. The risk is not of the building falling down but of the outer shell (outside the insulation structural wall) falling off as it is not properly secured to the structural wall. Hopefully he is right and the school can reopen soon.

thomasj · 24-10-2018 08:28PM

Latest report from RTE states
https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1024/1006361-school-construction/

The Department of Education has clarified details of the findings of a risk assessment carried out at Ardgillan Community College last Friday.

It says the assessment found that there was an 80% risk of parts of the school external wall falling in the event of storm force winds. This could be bricks dislodging and falling.

Structural engineers who examined the school also found a 20% risk of collapse of internal walls under the same circumstances.

The Department of Education said yesterday that issues discovered in two Tyrrelstown schools yesterday were similar to those found at Ardgillan.

Nijmegen · 25-10-2018 12:39AM

Ok, a 20% risk of internal wall collapse during a storm just can't be acceptable.

Larbre34 · 25-10-2018 01:39AM

This is awful stuff. Obviously the 40 odd schools in question will have to be properly inspected, but even these three are an indictment of procurement and oversight practices.

Its bad enough that folk buying new build homes in the last 15 years have had to worry about pyrite, fire protection and sound insulation, now that same generation can't trust the buildings supposed to protect their kids.

This is potentially so bad that we'll see some civil servants immediately retiring with only 90% of their pension secured. Catastrophic.

JupiterKid · 25-10-2018 02:25AM

Larbre34 wrote: »

This is awful stuff. Obviously the 40 odd schools in question will have to be properly inspected, but even these three are an indictment of procurement and oversight practices.

Its bad enough that folk buying new build homes in the last 15 years have had to worry about pyrite, fire protection and sound insulation, now that same generation can't trust the buildings supposed to protect their kids.

This is potentially so bad that we'll see some civil servants immediately retiring with only 90% of their pension secured. Catastrophic.

Yes, shocking but all part of the piss poor construction practices by cowboy builders during the so called Celtic Tiger era. The legacy is to be seen in Priory Hall, the pyrite scandal, the mica scandal and now this..

How many more incidences of atrocious building practices will come to light? Self-certification has been a total disaster as we can now clearly see that builders and those supplying builders with materials just cannot be trusted.

beauf · 25-10-2018 02:28AM

You'd have to wonder how (be they CS or private sector) how these things came to be missed, both by the people building it and those checking it.

oblivious · 25-10-2018 06:19AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes, shocking but all part of the piss poor construction practices by cowboy builders during the so called Celtic Tiger era. The legacy is to be seen in Priory Hall, the pyrite scandal, the mica scandal and now this..

How many more incidences of atrocious building practices will come to light? Self-certification has been a total disaster as we can now clearly see that builders and those supplying builders with materials just cannot be trusted.

LCC was opened in 2011, so not Celtic tiger. By all means blame the builders , but equally there a civil services that's responsible too for singing off on these builds

Hurrache · 25-10-2018 12:17PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes, shocking but all part of the piss poor construction practices by cowboy builders during the so called Celtic Tiger era. The legacy is to be seen in Priory Hall, the pyrite scandal, the mica scandal and now this..

How many more incidences of atrocious building practices will come to light? Self-certification has been a total disaster as we can now clearly see that builders and those supplying builders with materials just cannot be trusted.

Most of these weren't built during the Celtic Tiger period though?

Don't think they were self certified either, someone from the Department of Education was supposed to have inspected the progress periodically. Questions could be asked if they did inspect, and to what extent, or if they just submitted travel expenses.

advertsfox · 25-10-2018 01:35PM

Update from the school via an email today...

Tyrrelstown Educate Together wrote:

Dear Parents / Guardians,

As you may know, the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and Minister for Education Joe McHugh visited Tyrrelstown Educate Together NS, St Luke’s NS and the Community Centre earlier this morning.

Following a brief observation of the external buildings the Taoiseach and Minister met with both Principals and the Manager of the Community Centre, among others, to discuss the impact the recent closure has had on the local community.

Having raised a variety of concerns that directly impact the children, parents and community in general, we have received assurances and a commitment from the Taoiseach and the Department of Education in finding a suitable solution that would allow children to return to education as soon as reasonably possible. We have also been informed that the Department of Education are assessing a range of viable options for both schools and will inform of us of these in the coming days.

We are committed to keeping our school community informed of any developments as they occur and will update you as soon as we have any tangible information from the Department of Education.

Kind regards

Tim Stapleton

rolion · 25-10-2018 09:06PM

advertsfox wrote: »

Update from the school via an email today...

http://tetns.ie/2018/10/update-25th-october-2018/

deandean · 25-10-2018 09:49PM

Well if the structural assessment concluded there is an 80% chance of the outer walls falling down in the event of a storm, and bearing in mind the storms those schools have been subjected to in the last couple of years, I would say the assessment is completely wrong.
Sensationalism at its worst.

oblivious · 25-10-2018 10:20PM

deandean wrote: »

Well if the structural assessment concluded there is an 80% chance of the outer walls falling down in the event of a storm, and bearing in mind the storms those schools have been subjected to in the last couple of years, I would say the assessment is completely wrong.
Sensationalism at its worst.

It's a probability not a predictions........tin hat time

LorelaiG · 25-10-2018 10:31PM

deandean wrote: »

Well if the structural assessment concluded there is an 80% chance of the outer walls falling down in the event of a storm, and bearing in mind the storms those schools have been subjected to in the last couple of years, I would say the assessment is completely wrong.
Sensationalism at its worst.

An 80 percent chance it will means a 20 percent chance it won't. If my kids were in that school there'd have been hell to pay if they were injured in the event of the wall collapsing.

byhookorbycrook · 25-10-2018 10:34PM

DES has emailed all school principals looking for extra space in other schools, even those outside the catchment areas.

thomasj · 25-10-2018 10:44PM

deandean wrote:

Well if the structural assessment concluded there is an 80% chance of the outer walls falling down in the event of a storm, and bearing in mind the storms those schools have been subjected to in the last couple of years, I would say the assessment is completely wrong. Sensationalism at its worst.

One thing you do not gamble on , is life.

Nijmegen · 25-10-2018 11:21PM

deandean wrote: »

Well if the structural assessment concluded there is an 80% chance of the outer walls falling down in the event of a storm, and bearing in mind the storms those schools have been subjected to in the last couple of years, I would say the assessment is completely wrong.
Sensationalism at its worst.

That shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of how probabilities work, I would suggest. A 1% chance of failure on an airplane doesn’t mean you should feel comfortable hopping on the first 99 flights. The 1% could happen on flight 1 or flight 1,001

deiseindublin · 26-10-2018 09:30AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

DES has emailed all school principals looking for extra space in other schools, even those outside the catchment areas.

Just what distance could students (and staff) be reasonably expect to travel each day?

beauf · 26-10-2018 10:27AM

deiseindublin wrote: »

Just what distance could students (and staff) be reasonably expect to travel each day?

Anything on a public transport link within an hour or so?

lawred2 · 26-10-2018 10:32AM

So will the state seek redress/compensation for this?

Are the builders remedying the situation?

Are they solvent?

Hurrache · 26-10-2018 11:27AM

beauf wrote: »

Anything on a public transport link within an hour or so?

Well take the 40D out as that doesn't hit anywhere residential until it gets to Finglas, and I wouldn't say there's much spare capacity there.

advertsfox · 26-10-2018 11:46AM

Fresh email in from the school just now:

Tyrrelstown Educate Together - Newsletter wrote:

Dear Parents / Guardians,

Over the course of yesterday and into today we have been in regular discussion with
the Department of Education and their Consultants regarding the options for an
interim accommodation solution for Tyrrelstown Educate Together NS. As I'm sure
you can appreciate, this is a fast-moving situation but we want to keep you as
informed as we can, as things progress.

We are all in agreement that the preferred solution would involve staying on-site in
alternative accommodation, keeping our pupils, teachers, staff and community
together as much as possible. Investigations on establishing whether this is a viable
option will be carried out over the next few days as well as establishing other
possibilities as a contingency.

We will endeavour to keep you updated as things develop and in the meantime,
please find below a statement received from the Department last night.

Kind regards

Tim Stapleton

Thursday October 25th 2018

Update on WBS Building Issues

The Department of Education and Skills has today been in contact with all schools
constructed by Western Building Systems, and which are due to undergo a structural
assessment, to confirm the arrangements for that assessment. The assessments are
proceeding over the weekend and mid-term break in order to minimise disruption to
schools and ensure that they can be completed as quickly as possible.

The Department’s interim accommodation team has been working intensively over
the course of today, in consultation with the school principals, to secure an interim
accommodation solution for Tyrrelstown Educate Together National School and St
Luke’s National School.

Minister McHugh added, “Good progress has been made today in ensuring that the
students and staff of the affected schools in Tyrrelstown will have an interim
accommodation solution by the end of the mid-term break. While we await the
outcome of further structural assessments, we would wish to be clear that school
buildings will only be closed where it is deemed necessary to do so, and every effort
will be made to minimise disruption to students, staff and families.”

Site visits at Ardgillan Community College and the schools in Tyrrelstown also took
place today, involving Department of Education and Skills officials, structural
engineers and representatives of Western Building Systems. This provided Western
Building Systems with the opportunity to view the structural issues identified at the
three schools. The Department is awaiting a response from Western Building
Systems. The overriding priority of the Department remains the health and
safety of the schoolnpupils and staff.

PhoenixParker · 26-10-2018 11:56AM

deiseindublin wrote: »

Just what distance could students (and staff) be reasonably expect to travel each day?

beauf wrote: »

Anything on a public transport link within an hour or so?

Generally a bus would be provided between the existing school site and the new school site.

Least that's what happened when my local (primary) school had insufficient space and used empty classrooms in a school 20 minutes away.

blanch152 · 26-10-2018 04:04PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

This is awful stuff. Obviously the 40 odd schools in question will have to be properly inspected, but even these three are an indictment of procurement and oversight practices.

Its bad enough that folk buying new build homes in the last 15 years have had to worry about pyrite, fire protection and sound insulation, now that same generation can't trust the buildings supposed to protect their kids.

This is potentially so bad that we'll see some civil servants immediately retiring with only 90% of their pension secured. Catastrophic.

How are civil servants to blame for private sector contractors criminally ripping off the state by building sub-standard schools?

deiseindublin · 26-10-2018 07:50PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Generally a bus would be provided between the existing school site and the new school site.

Jeez, bus would have to be on the go over and back all day in some schools, so many not arriving for first class and signing out early.

ozmo · 27-10-2018 09:23PM

LCC And 4 others got the all clear according to RTE 9pm News

A Shaved Duck? · 01-11-2018 04:51PM

blanch152 wrote: »

How are civil servants to blame for private sector contractors criminally ripping off the state by building sub-standard schools?

The civil service had to sign off on the builds, so questions quite rightly have to be asked and evidence of any due dilligence provided.

People simply cant blame the builders here...somebody in the department of education has to sign off.

beauf · 01-11-2018 05:03PM

Its a systemic failure of the whole system from the top to the bottom. Public and Private.

its not just schools, its all building. Its all standards, Fire, energy and structural.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/news/government/unpublished-seai-report-showed-systemic-building-control-failure

Its been going on for decades.

ozmo · 01-11-2018 05:12PM

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

People simply cant blame the builders here...somebody in the department of education has to sign off.

Im told by a builder friend that this is complex who is at fault...

It may even be the hired Brick layers at fault - there are these things apparently called "FishTails" which are metal bars with hooks each end - put in to tie the inner walls to the outerwalls - they go in the morter under the bricks.

The issue is that these have to align right on each side or the bricks will not site right - will look crooked - so some brickers may take the shortcut and pull them out if they dont align or not fit them at all in order to keep their brick productivity up - which affects what they are paid.

Once the wall is built - you cannot see them - so inspection would have been difficult.

This may all the out of date information - my builder pal hasn't been a builder for several years.

http://www.btpreservation.co.uk/wp-content/files_mf/1392560703expansivecorrosion.jpg

Dublin 15 schools to be shut down over structural defects

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