Are we a high wage economy

22-10-2018 11:25am #1

Having family in the uk, I notice this we seem to pay ourselves far more in general for a degree-related job in the health services or in general and have hight or very high expectations for salaries. I know of 3 different professions that in the UK are paid 2/3 of what the same profession would pay here, on the other hand, the UK has the NHS, genuine free schooling and in a lot of areas cheaper housing so maybe it's not comparing like with like?

artanevilla · 22-10-2018 11:27am

Absolutely not comparing like for like. We are a nation of under 5 million. There is more people in one city in the UK then there is on our whole island.

PirateShampoo · 22-10-2018 11:31am

Nope not at all. My job pays roughly €15 phr, the exact same job for the exact same company in America pays roughly $35-42 phr plus added benefits.

22-10-2018 11:31am

artanevilla wrote: »

Absolutely not comparing like for like. We are a nation of under 5 million. There is more people in one city in the UK then there is on our whole island.

What has that got to do with how we pay ourselves though.

Blitzkrieger · 22-10-2018 11:37am

At the height of the last boom, while our employers were bemoaning the cost of doing business here and saying our wages are too high, a study concluded that Irish people worked the longest hours for the least pay of all the major economies in Europe. Some people will tell you the minimum wage is too high, though most wouldn't consider it a living wage. Some roles might be paid relatively high compared to what is paid abroad, but in most cases I wouldn't say wages here are high.

Ray Palmer · 22-10-2018 11:51am

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Nope not at all. My job pays roughly €15 phr, the exact same job for the exact same company in America pays roughly $35-42 phr plus added benefits.

That is very unusual as the US cost of living is so much lower they tend to pay less. You certainly don't have as much rights as an employee over there.

Avatar MIA · 22-10-2018 11:55am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is very unusual as the US cost of living is so much lower they tend to pay less. You certainly don't have as much rights as an employee over there.

Agree with the above.

And the premise of the thread was not 'Are we the best paid in the world' - comparing to one country and saying no is of little benefit.

Clearly we are well paid by most if not all measures. Our cost of living is also high though.

But, all things being equal. We are a wealthy nation.

Avatar MIA · 22-10-2018 12:00pm

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

At the height of the last boom, while our employers were bemoaning the cost of doing business here and saying our wages are too high, a study concluded that Irish people worked the longest hours for the least pay of all the major economies in Europe. Some people will tell you the minimum wage is too high, though most wouldn't consider it a living wage. Some roles might be paid relatively high compared to what is paid abroad, but in most cases I wouldn't say wages here are high.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

Give a look at the above. Pretty much the same as Germany.

begbysback · 22-10-2018 12:01pm

If I was paying myself then I'd give myself a raise, and tell myself to take Fridays off, and don't come in until 11am

Thanks boss!!

stateofflux · 22-10-2018 12:02pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Having family in the uk, I notice this we seem to pay ourselves far more in general for a degree-related job in the health services or in general and have hight or very high expectations for salaries. I know of 3 different professions that in the UK are paid 2/3 of what the same profession would pay here, on the other hand, the UK has the NHS, genuine free schooling and in a lot of areas cheaper housing so maybe it's not comparing like with like?

Its all relative.

We are one of the most taxed nations in the world at the moment when you factor in cost of living , Health insurance, pension tax etc etc

It all comes down to disposable income

Dr Brown · 22-10-2018 12:04pm

We have "high" wages compared with other countries but the cost of living is also very high.

doolox · 22-10-2018 12:05pm

....of any job in Ireland you have very little rights to job security. You may have some vacation, work break, and hours worked rights but these are being eroded all the time and very few people have the bravery to look for and get their legal rights in this regard. Working through breaks and long hours etc is the new work norm.

France now has the ridiculous situation where people are officially paid for 32 hours per week but are secretly expected to work for much longer hours. If they do not cooperate in this subterfuge and do not have union protection they can be fired.

Ireland engages in similar stunts, loading down workers with more work than can be accomplished in the time allowed and expecting a lot of work to be done at home. Most training and development is now done on the employees time in the evenings, weekends or unpaid on their own time where this was on company time in the past. Also unpaid travel time to compulsory off site venues for work or training is now the norm.

Avatar MIA · 22-10-2018 12:08pm

doolox wrote: »

....of any job in Ireland you have very little rights to job security. You may have some vacation, work break, and hours worked rights but these are being eroded all the time and very few people have the bravery to look for and get their legal rights in this regard. Working through breaks and long hours etc is the new work norm.

France now has the ridiculous situation where people are officially paid for 32 hours per week but are secretly expected to work for much longer hours. If they do not cooperate in this subterfuge and do not have union protection they can be fired.

Ireland engages in similar stunts, loading down workers with more work than can be accomplished in the time allowed and expecting a lot of work to be done at home. Most training and development is now done on the employees time in the evenings, weekends or unpaid on their own time where this was on company time in the past. Also unpaid travel time to compulsory off site venues for work or training is now the norm.

Is that just anecdotal or any source?

lawred2 · 22-10-2018 12:10pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Having family in the uk, I notice this we seem to pay ourselves far more in general for a degree-related job in the health services or in general and have hight or very high expectations for salaries. I know of 3 different professions that in the UK are paid 2/3 of what the same profession would pay here, on the other hand, the UK has the NHS, genuine free schooling and in a lot of areas cheaper housing so maybe it's not comparing like with like?

and there are many careers that pay vastly more in the UK than here..

Dr Brown · 22-10-2018 12:10pm

doolox wrote: »

....of any job in Ireland you have very little rights to job security. You may have some vacation, work break, and hours worked rights but these are being eroded all the time and very few people have the bravery to look for and get their legal rights in this regard. Working through breaks and long hours etc is the new work norm.

France now has the ridiculous situation where people are officially paid for 32 hours per week but are secretly expected to work for much longer hours. If they do not cooperate in this subterfuge and do not have union protection they can be fired.

Ireland engages in similar stunts, loading down workers with more work than can be accomplished in the time allowed and expecting a lot of work to be done at home. Most training and development is now done on the employees time in the evenings, weekends or unpaid on their own time where this was on company time in the past. Also unpaid travel time to compulsory off site venues for work or training is now the norm.

They are also using Non-Nationals to drive down wages.

lawred2 · 22-10-2018 12:11pm

stateofflux wrote: »

Its all relative.

We are one of the most taxed nations in the world at the moment when you factor in cost of living , Health insurance, pension tax etc etc

It all comes down to disposable income

yup

and the numbers are not good

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?Ireland-in-19th-rank-for-disposable-income-22-below-OECD-average-749

Franz Von Peppercorn · 22-10-2018 12:13pm

lawred2 wrote: »

and there are many careers that pay vastly more in the UK than here..

Outside finance, hard to think.

Remember sterling is in a long term fall against the euro. It came in at 1.6 or so. Now it’s at 1.1. The Irish punt was 1.26 on entry.

Ray Palmer · 22-10-2018 2:22pm

doolox wrote: »

....of any job in Ireland you have very little rights to job security. You may have some vacation, work break, and hours worked rights but these are being eroded all the time and very few people have the bravery to look for and get their legal rights in this regard. Working through breaks and long hours etc is the new work norm.

France now has the ridiculous situation where people are officially paid for 32 hours per week but are secretly expected to work for much longer hours. If they do not cooperate in this subterfuge and do not have union protection they can be fired.

Ireland engages in similar stunts, loading down workers with more work than can be accomplished in the time allowed and expecting a lot of work to be done at home. Most training and development is now done on the employees time in the evenings, weekends or unpaid on their own time where this was on company time in the past. Also unpaid travel time to compulsory off site venues for work or training is now the norm.

Utter nonsense. We have very good employment protection.

One of my team is off all week getting training and 3 were off all of last week in the wider team doing training.

Redundancy rights here are pretty good and company now have to keep an insolvency fund.

Try the US where you can be fired on the spot with no notice or redundancy no matter how long you worked there.

22-10-2018 2:37pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is very unusual as the US cost of living is so much lower they tend to pay less. You certainly don't have as much rights as an employee over there.

I would say the opposite, wages in the US are far higher in skilled roles anyway. Jobs that pay in the 50 to 60k bracket here will be over 100k dollars (with less tax on that too so more into your hand).

A colleague of mine started on 125k dollars when he moved to the US and this is a started wage in the field with just a few years experience and all the tech companies in the region pay similar. He was on 40k euro here.

It is true you haven’t the same rights or holidays though.

Berserker · 22-10-2018 2:51pm

stateofflux wrote: »

Its all relative.

We are one of the most taxed nations in the world at the moment when you factor in cost of living , Health insurance, pension tax etc etc

It all comes down to disposable income

For me wages were higher in the USA and I got my health insurance, which is far more expensive in the US than here, covered. On the flip side, tax is too high here, for those of us who pay the higher rate and far too few people are being taxed. I'd also consider good work life balance to be worth a good chunk of cash. Work dominated my life in the US, whilst I tend to have a decent balance here.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Is that just anecdotal or any source?

I've noticed this personally. My last two employers blurbed on about their training budget and the amazing training they were going to give me but it failed to materialise on joining. The budget was there and it was spent but we never got to avail of it. The office darlings and people who weren't very good at their jobs were sent. One of the leads must have spent two weeks a month on training, no exaggeration.

Samson Uninterested Pollution wrote: »

It is true you haven’t the same rights or holidays though.

Yep, I managed to bargain for a few days extra during a performance review, to bring mine up to a massive 18 days. Was told to keep it to myself.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 22-10-2018 3:13pm

Samson Uninterested Pollution wrote: »

I would say the opposite, wages in the US are far higher in skilled roles anyway. Jobs that pay in the 50 to 60k bracket here will be over 100k dollars (with less tax on that too so more into your hand).

A colleague of mine started on 125k dollars when he moved to the US and this is a started wage in the field with just a few years experience and all the tech companies in the region pay similar. He was on 40k euro here.

It is true you haven’t the same rights or holidays though.

More than half of that is shooting out on rent if he’s in SV.

_Kaiser_ · 22-10-2018 4:07pm

We're a high cost economy, and what's been exposed in the last few years is that despite the "recovery", many people are no better - or actually worse - off in real terms.

22-10-2018 4:54pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Having family in the uk, I notice this we seem to pay ourselves far more in general for a degree-related job in the health services or in general and have hight or very high expectations for salaries. I know of 3 different professions that in the UK are paid 2/3 of what the same profession would pay here, on the other hand, the UK has the NHS, genuine free schooling and in a lot of areas cheaper housing so maybe it's not comparing like with like?

And those in the care sector on €10 an hour. Give over with your sweeping generalisations.

22-10-2018 5:01pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

More than half of that is shooting out on rent if he’s in SV.

His rent is not too bad, can’t remember the exact numbers but somewhere between 2k and 2.5k dollars if I remember correctly and the rent in Ireland was close to 1500. Lovely place too 20 mins drive from work.

He told me that with his wife currently not working they are saving more at the end of the month on his salary alone than on their combined salaries in Ireland that tells it all really.

ToddyDoody · 22-10-2018 5:44pm

We actually do have one of the highest average industrial wages in the world, according to an article I read a while back. Small countries with small populations like Luxembourg tended to dominate the list of highest average industrial wages. I think a reason was given for this but I can't recall what it was.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 22-10-2018 6:53pm

Samson Uninterested Pollution wrote: »

His rent is not too bad, can’t remember the exact numbers but somewhere between 2k and 2.5k dollars if I remember correctly and the rent in Ireland was close to 1500. Lovely place too 20 mins drive from work.

He told me that with his wife currently not working they are saving more at the end of the month on his salary alone than on their combined salaries in Ireland that tells it all really.

2k in Silicon Valley would get a studio, at best. Unless he’s well away from SV proper. Also taxes are not that low there.

Wanderer2010 · 22-10-2018 6:55pm

It always makes me laugh when they throw out these figures around Budget Day example John is single 35 and earns 75k a year. Id love Johns job ha ha. I am highly qualified and the most ive earned in my industry (engineering) despite years of experience is 50k.

wakka12 · 22-10-2018 7:10pm

artanevilla wrote: »

Absolutely not comparing like for like. We are a nation of under 5 million. There is more people in one city in the UK then there is on our whole island.

Why does that matter? It is always calculated per capita

stateofflux · 24-10-2018 10:48am

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

It always makes me laugh when they throw out these figures around Budget Day example John is single 35 and earns 75k a year. Id love Johns job ha ha. I am highly qualified and the most ive earned in my industry (engineering) despite years of experience is 50k.

50K would be only slightly above average industrial wage.

seems low for an experienced engineer- you may be getting screwed

murpho999 · 24-10-2018 10:57am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is very unusual as the US cost of living is so much lower they tend to pay less. You certainly don't have as much rights as an employee over there.

I think this is a myth. Been to the US a few times and always found it to be expensive.

murpho999 · 24-10-2018 10:59am

Dr Brown wrote: »

They are also using Non-Nationals to drive down wages.

In all my time I have never met anybody who did not have a nationality.

Brian? · 24-10-2018 11:00am

Dr Brown wrote: »

They are also using Non-Nationals to drive down wages.

But I thought they came here to scam social welfare?

Brian? · 24-10-2018 11:02am

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

It always makes me laugh when they throw out these figures around Budget Day example John is single 35 and earns 75k a year. Id love Johns job ha ha. I am highly qualified and the most ive earned in my industry (engineering) despite years of experience is 50k.

You need to change job. Any engineer with over 10 years of experience should be earning at least 75k.

Dr Brown · 24-10-2018 11:35am

Brian? wrote: »

But I thought they came here to scam social welfare?

Your right that's also a problem with Non-Nationals.

24-10-2018 12:21pm

Dr Brown wrote: »

Your right that's also a problem with Non-Nationals.

Your sarcasm meter is defective.

Avatar MIA · 24-10-2018 12:59pm

Brian? wrote: »

You need to change job. Any engineer with over 10 years of experience should be earning at least 75k.

Engineers typically aren't well paid as a profession when they are employees. They can make great entrepreneurs.

Skylinehead · 24-10-2018 1:12pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is very unusual as the US cost of living is so much lower they tend to pay less. You certainly don't have as much rights as an employee over there.

murpho999 wrote: »

I think this is a myth. Been to the US a few times and always found it to be expensive.

It's a huge country, it doesn't have a single cost of living. San Francisco and New York are eye-wateringly expensive, even compared to here, but places like Mississippi are far far cheaper.

For a reason.

professore · 24-10-2018 1:36pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is very unusual as the US cost of living is so much lower they tend to pay less. You certainly don't have as much rights as an employee over there.

I think this is a myth. Been to the US a few times and always found it to be expensive.

In Chicago right now and it's more expensive here than Ireland, and that's before you factor in 20% tips which are mandatory here.

ArnoldJRimmer · 24-10-2018 1:47pm

professore wrote: »

In Chicago right now and it's more expensive here than Ireland, and that's before you factor in 20% tips which are mandatory here.

I disagree, when you factor in the cost of renting, the number of cheap supermarkets, car insurance, and clothing, I find Chicago cheaper than living in Dublin. Income taxes are also lower. The only expense that is significantly higher is for healthcare, which is obviously very important, but the quality of treatment here is a million miles ahead of Ireland.

stratowide · 24-10-2018 1:58pm

professore wrote: »

In Chicago right now and it's more expensive here than Ireland, and that's before you factor in 20% tips which are mandatory here.

Tips were discretionary in August when I was there.When did this change to mandatory.

Geuze · 24-10-2018 2:54pm

This is Eurostat data, from the 2014 SES survey.

Median_gross_hourly_earnings%2C_all_employees_%28excluding_apprentices%29%2C_2014_YB17.png

Geuze · 24-10-2018 2:56pm

Estimated_hourly_labour_costs%2C_2017_%28EUR%29_CORR.png

Geuze · 24-10-2018 2:58pm

This data is from the 2014 Eurostat SES survey:

Median_gross_hourly_earnings_and_low-wage_earners%2C_2014_V3.png

Geuze · 24-10-2018 3:01pm

I like this data, that shows the 10th, 50th and 90th percentile:

Gross hourly earnings dispersion ratios, 2014.png

Table_2_Gross_hourly_earnings_dispersion_ratios%2C_2014.png

Table_2_Gross_hourly_earnings_dispersion_ratios%2C_2014.png

murpho999 · 24-10-2018 3:43pm

stratowide wrote: »

Tips were discretionary in August when I was there.When did this change to mandatory.

It's pretty much mandatory in the US. Only the lowest of the low don't tip there no matter how bad the service is.

ArnoldJRimmer · 24-10-2018 3:54pm

murpho999 wrote: »

It's pretty much mandatory in the US. Only the lowest of the low don't tip there no matter how bad the service is.

Yeah, but closer to 15% I'd say. Or maybe I'm just tight

Its still not a huge burden given how cheaply you can live here. Plenty of bars where you can get a pint of light beer for $2, or nicer beers for $4. And food shopping can be exceptionally cheap, even for good quality produce

Brian? · 24-10-2018 6:22pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Engineers typically aren't well paid as a profession when they are employees. They can make great entrepreneurs.

I have to disagree. I know exactly what some engineers earn as employees. Hence my 75k remark. I just left an engineering managers job in Ireland.

Brian? · 24-10-2018 6:23pm

Dr Brown wrote: »

Your right that's also a problem with Non-Nationals.

Schrodingers immigrant. They're here to steal your job and claim the dole at the same time.

24-10-2018 6:32pm

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Yeah, but closer to 15% I'd say. Or maybe I'm just tight

Its still not a huge burden given how cheaply you can live here. Plenty of bars where you can get a pint of light beer for $2, or nicer beers for $4. And food shopping can be exceptionally cheap, even for good quality produce

You are going to very different parts of the US than me as I find it very expensive and I’ve been around to a lot of different places. The cheapest pint I’ve seen is about 6 dollars (and they are small US “pints” and a 20% tip needed on top of that). As I’m usually there on holiday or for work I don’t food shop but eating out is very expensive also.

Electric Sheep · 24-10-2018 8:20pm

murpho999 wrote: »

I think this is a myth. Been to the US a few times and always found it to be expensive.

It's extremely dependent on location in the US. A salary of $115K in Boston MA is the equivalent of $74,645 in Charlotte NC. In San Francisco, you would need $149,757 for the same lifestyle.

I chose those cities as they are some of the locations of my employer.

https://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/index.html

Are we a high wage economy

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