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Licence dilemma

  • 16-10-2018 12:52AM
    #1
    MizzDoodles68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 ✭


    I have been driving for over 7 years on a provisional license and decided recently that it’s time to do the driving test again (4th time lucky right). However, when I did my application I realised that my license has expired. So I decided to go to apply to renew my license only to discover when I got there that my license was expired for five years so I have to go back to basics and do my theory test and my 12 EDT driving test lessons. I’m not happy!

    So my dilemma is do I continue driving? I really need to be able to - I have booked the theory test in the centre quite a distance from me (over an hours drive) to get soonest possible appointment. I have no way otherwise of getting to the testing centre and I really need to get my learners permit as soon as possible.

    Please refine from judging and criticising as I’ve done that myself plenty. Has anyone else found themselves in this predicament what they do and what are the potential penalties?


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Comments

  • #2
    FirefighterT7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭FirefighterT7


    Hi! If I were you I’d look up the bus timetables or try to find someone going that way. Potential penalties at best caught by checkpoint or Garda Automatic Numberplate recognition (ANPR) car and lengthy ban and points which will render near impossible to get insurance, worst case in an accident where someone seriously hurt or worse and a lot worse repricussions, I’ve been to plenty of those. Don’t beat yourself up over it I’m sure you didn’t mean to let it lapse, all you can do is do what you’re doing to sort it, at least you want to rectify it so that’s a positive start.. best of luck with the Theory and test 😊


  • #3
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    There's no dilemma, you never had a license to drive unaccompanied, you still don't.


  • #4
    bassy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭bassy


    bandit im gonna barbecue your ass you sum bitch.


  • #5
    V8 Interceptor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭V8 Interceptor


    Keep on driving. Just don't crash!


  • #6
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,882 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Potential penalties are-

    Driving without a license or Driving unaccompanied depending on if you get a new learners permit.

    Driving without insurance (you may have the car insured but the policy is void if you don't have a license or you are unaccompanied on a learner permit)

    Car seized and court.


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  • #7
    aido79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    MizzDoodles68 wrote: »
    I have been driving for over 7 years on a provisional license and decided recently that it’s time to do the driving test again (4th time lucky right). However, when I did my application I realised that my license has expired. So I decided to go to apply to renew my license only to discover when I got there that my license was expired for five years so I have to go back to basics and do my theory test and my 12 EDT driving test lessons. I’m not happy!

    So my dilemma is do I continue driving? I really need to be able to - I have booked the theory test in the centre quite a distance from me (over an hours drive) to get soonest possible appointment. I have no way otherwise of getting to the testing centre and I really need to get my learners permit as soon as possible.

    Please refine from judging and criticising as I’ve done that myself plenty. Has anyone else found themselves in this predicament what they do and what are the potential penalties?

    Its both ridiculous that you got away with this for so long and are considering continuing to do it.
    You don't have a licence and only one legal option as you have already acknowledged. That should answer any questions you have.
    Your insurance would most likely be invalid in the event of an accident too so is it really worth the risk?


  • #8
    cruizer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    Have you even got insurance?
    I thought insurance companies looked for licence number and expiry date when you renew.
    And also that they had access to some sort of database where they can check the validity of licence and if any convictions/points.

    Either way you shouldn't be driving, whatever about a few weeks or even months expired, 5 years :eek: how did you still think you had a licence.


  • #9
    Cutie 3.14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 610 ✭✭✭Cutie 3.14


    After your like, second or third provisional you have to renew it every single year after.
    They only last one year.

    5 years!? Come on, you knew well you were driving without a licence!


  • #10
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,111 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    MizzDoodles68 wrote: »
    I have been driving for over 7 years on a provisional license and decided recently that it’s time to do the driving test again (4th time lucky right). However, when I did my application I realised that my license has expired. So I decided to go to apply to renew my license only to discover when I got there that my license was expired for five years so I have to go back to basics and do my theory test and my 12 EDT driving test lessons. I’m not happy!

    So my dilemma is do I continue driving? I really need to be able to - I have booked the theory test in the centre quite a distance from me (over an hours drive) to get soonest possible appointment. I have no way otherwise of getting to the testing centre and I really need to get my learners permit as soon as possible.

    Please refine from judging and criticising as I’ve done that myself plenty. Has anyone else found themselves in this predicament what they do and what are the potential penalties?

    What do you think you should do?

    And what category of Irish citizen would you consider yourself as falling into were you to do what you are suggesting?


  • #11
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,234 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    1. You don't have a licence.
    2. You don't have insurance as insurance is based on the fact that you hold or have held in the last 5 years, a licence to cover the class of vehicle. You have never had a licence and therefore never had valid insurance either.

    You have been lucky in that you have managed to avoid getting caught for 5 years, I suggest you stop driving now and sort out your licence issue before driving again.

    Ignorance is not an excuse in the event that your caught or in an accident.


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  • #12
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Driving without insurance (you may have the car insured but the policy is void if you don't have a license or you are unaccompanied on a learner permit)

    Car seized and court.
    I wish people would stop trotting this out as it's just not true. The comprehensive portion of the insurance (if they had it) will likely be invalid but they will still pay out to third parties in the event of a crash. The conpany might look to recover costs from the OP but if they've paid for insurance then legally they're ok on that point. No risk of seizure for lack of insurance. Big risk of being sued by your insurance company though.


  • #13
    troyzer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,170 ✭✭✭troyzer


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I wish people would stop trotting this out as it's just not true. The comprehensive portion of the insurance (if they had it) will likely be invalid but they will still pay out to third parties in the event of a crash. The conpany might look to recover costs from the OP but if they've paid for insurance then legally they're ok on that point. No risk of seizure for lack of insurance. Big risk of being sued by your insurance company though.

    From Liberty Insurance's website:
    Am I covered to drive, unaccompanied, on a learner permit?
    Car or Van
    No, you are not covered to drive, unaccompanied, on a learner permit. The Road Traffic Act states that learner permit drivers must be accompanied by a full licence holder at all times when driving. Therefore, no cover will apply if you drive unaccompanied on a learner. The accompanying driver must have held a full licence for a continuous period of at least 2 years.

    I presume the rest of them would have the same clause in the terms and conditions.


  • #14
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,777 ✭✭✭Isambard


    I thought people had got to the point where they realised a learner permit was to permit you to learn, not to commute half way across the County.


  • #15
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    troyzer wrote: »
    From Liberty Insurance's website:



    I presume the rest of them would have the same clause in the terms and conditions.
    You can't terms and conditions yourself out of legal obligations. This topic comes up literally every thread on expired licenses, I'll see if I can find someone quoting the law on this.


  • #16
    troyzer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,170 ✭✭✭troyzer


    TheChizler wrote: »
    You can't terms and conditions yourself out of legal obligations. This topic comes up literally every thread on expired licenses, I'll see if I can find someone quoting the law on this.

    Work away and if you do, I'd be writing an email to Liberty if I were you.


  • #17
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,434 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Your in a predicament of tour own making. No licence or insurance for 7 years is insane.....(2 years validity plus 5 years expired) no excuses...you need to start from scratch.


  • #18
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    troyzer wrote: »
    Work away and if you do, I'd be writing an email to Liberty if I were you.
    I won't be cause I couldn't be bothered and they're not going to change their terms and conditions on the basis of a non-customer's observation. The law still applies no matter what their terms and conditions say so if something happened they'll cover the bare minimum necessary by law and no more.

    On the learner driving accompanied thing, if they're named on the certificate of insurance and have or have held a license and are not disqualified, then 3rd party obligations are covered. Seamus describes it better than I could here. Haven't found any links to laws yet though.

    On the expired license thing, I think we're both half right. I think I was getting mixed up partly with driving unaccompanied which gets brought up a lot. But again what matters is what's on your certificate of insurance. Most seem to say you're covered if you have or have held a license (and are not disqualified). This is why people aren't arrested and cars seized for driving with licenses expired by a few days.


  • #19
    troyzer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,170 ✭✭✭troyzer


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I won't be cause I couldn't be bothered and they're not going to change their terms and conditions on the basis of a non-customer's observation. The law still applies no matter what their terms and conditions say so if something happened they'll cover the bare minimum necessary by law and no more.

    On the learner driving accompanied thing, if they're named on the certificate of insurance and have or have held a license and are not disqualified, then 3rd party obligations are covered. Seamus describes it better than I could here. Haven't found any links to laws yet though.

    On the expired license thing, I think we're both half right. I think I was getting mixed up partly with driving unaccompanied which gets brought up a lot. But again what matters is what's on your certificate of insurance. Most seem to say you're covered if you have or have held a license (and are not disqualified). This is why people aren't arrested and cars seized for driving with licenses expired by a few days.

    I imagine this is all being cleared up in the Road Traffic Act. Are the Healy Rae's still fighting it?

    I know that if you're blind drunk and crashed, you're still covered for 3rd party.


  • #20
    cruizer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I won't be cause I couldn't be bothered and they're not going to change their terms and conditions on the basis of a non-customer's observation. The law still applies no matter what their terms and conditions say so if something happened they'll cover the bare minimum necessary by law and no more.

    My understanding, and I could be wrong as not sure where I heard it, is that you are not insured but even as an unisured driver the third party claim still has to get paid out. The insurance company takes responsibilty for this and are then obliged to try get the money back from the driver if they can't then MIBI pays out to the insurance company.


  • #21
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    There is a big difference between being 'covered' and your insurer having to meet their obligations under the Road Traffic Act to pay a 3rd party for their loss. Because you are not covered, the insurer can recoup their losses from you and it does happen.

    Secondly, you are covered if you "hold a licence, or having held a licence and are not disqualified from holding a licence". In other words, if your licence has expired, you are still covered by the policy and an insurer cannot recover their loss. A learners permit is not a licence. So this does not apply.

    Finally, if you misrepresent you licence circumstances to your insurer, this gives them the right to avoid a claim (subject to the RTA situation above) and recover their loss from you


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  • #22
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    Secondly, you are covered if you "hold a licence, or having held a licence and are not disqualified from holding a licence". In other words, if your licence has expired, you are still covered by the policy and an insurer cannot recover their loss. A learners permit is not a licence. So this does not apply.
    Just on that point, the OP had a provisional license they say, since it was back in the old system when they last sorted it out. Secondly, how is a learner ever covered even when driving accompanied if they'll only cover you when you have something called a license? The cert is the same whether you have a learner permit or full license, isn't it?


  • #23
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Just on that point, the OP had a provisional license they say, since it was back in the old system when they last sorted it out. Secondly, how is a learner ever covered even when driving accompanied if they'll only cover you when you have something called a license? The cert is the same whether you have a learner permit or full license, isn't it?

    Lots of people say they have Road tax too. But they are wrong.

    Not saying it's definately the case for the op but even people that only ever had learners permits are going around calling them provisionals. Learners permits are around a fair few years at this stage are they not.


  • #24
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Lots of people say they have Road tax too. But they are wrong.

    Not saying it's definately the case for the op but even people that only ever had learners permits are going around calling them provisionals. Learners permits are around a fair few years at this stage are they not.

    The obligation to be accompanied has been around since at least 1999, not sure which SI was in operation prior to 1999

    SI352/1999
    (iv) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless he or she is accompanied by and is under the supervision of a qualified person,


  • #25
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Just on that point, the OP had a provisional license they say, since it was back in the old system when they last sorted it out.

    They only claimed they've been driving "over 7 years". They'd need to be driving over 11 years now for it to have been a provisional.

    They're on a learner's permit.


  • #26
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    zilog_jones wrote: »
    They only claimed they've been driving "over 7 years". They'd need to be driving over 11 years now for it to have been a provisional.

    They're on a learner's permit.
    I'm fairly sure I had a provisional in 2009 (definitely the blue paper one) so I don't think it's that long ago. Anyway, for the purpose of the certificate of insurance don't they mean the same thing? To my knowledge no cert says "Provided that the person holds a learner permit", they all say license. How do people on learner permits get around that one if it's as specific as claimed?


  • #27
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    The "Provisional Licence" ("licence", not "license", because we're not yanks :) ) has been gone since October 2007. I know because I applied for the test immediately then after all the scaremongering about clamping down on unaccompanied drivers which apparently never happened. (Note: I was on my first provisional, not tearing the arse out of it for years)

    The original Learner Permits were also blue/green paper.


  • #28
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    zilog_jones wrote: »
    The "Provisional Licence" ("licence", not "license", because we're not yanks :) ) has been gone since October 2007. I know because I applied for the test immediately then after all the scaremongering about clamping down on unaccompanied drivers which apparently never happened. (Note: I was on my first provisional, not tearing the arse out of it for years)

    The original Learner Permits were also blue/green paper.
    Fair enough. I thought the first permits were cards. But still the certificate of insurance says license, how do you get around people with learner permits being insured if that excludes permits?


  • #29
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Fair enough. I thought the first permits were cards. But still the certificate of insurance says license, how do you get around people with learner permits being insured if that excludes permits?

    Get around it in what way? They are insured for the purposes of learning to drive while accompanied by a full licence holder.


  • #30
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Get around it in what way? They are insured for the purposes of learning to drive while accompanied by a full licence holder.
    Someone said that since the certificate of insurance says the word "licence" therefore learner permits don't count, and if the permit is expired the entire insurance is invalid (whereas an expired license would be ok).

    I'm making the point that non-expired learner permits are clearly covered by this clause, so how could the above be true?


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  • #31
    mikeecho
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    My reading is that the OP has been driving for 7yrs, and the learns permit has been expired for 5yrs.

    That means, the OP only ever got 1 learners permit, and never ever renewed it.

    FFS. How long did you think it was going to be valid for.


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