Diplomatic immunity.

UrbanVixen · 08-10-2018 10:20AM #1

What is the conceptual basis of diplomatic immunity ?

Is it set out in statute and or under some convention ?

Does it apply to criminal and or civil law scenarios ?

Not a request for advice. My question is prompted by a very naughty piece of driving that I observed yesterday with a CD registration.

gimli2112 · 08-10-2018 10:27AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

Some good examples here of how it's applied to vehicle issues.

coylemj · 08-10-2018 11:42AM

UrbanVixen wrote: »

My question is prompted by a very naughty piece of driving that I observed yesterday with a CD registration.

Diplomatic Immunity has been invoked for far more serious offences than naughty driving. To answer your question, it can be invoked for criminal or civil actions. In very serious cases and if we're not talking about corrupt countries where the diplomats are all family and cronies, the embassy can withdraw immunity from the individual and they can be prosecuted. Otherwise, the only sanction the host country has is to ask the embassy to send the person home.

But a CD plate on a car means nothing, it could be privately owned where the driver bought the car from an embassy. You'll probably find that the likes of US and UK diplomats do not use them. Because it would only attract attention to them and if they're stopped by the cops, they can flash their diplomatic passports and they will be on their way before you can say 'Vienna Convention'.

GM228 · 08-10-2018 01:19PM

Diplomatic immunity and associated privileges stem from the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961 and the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963 which codified time immemorial recognised rights.

The various provisions of the conventions are provided in Irish law via the Diplomatic Relations and Immunities Act 1967 as amended.

GM228 · 08-10-2018 02:30PM

coylemj wrote: »

But a CD plate on a car means nothing

+1, CD has no statutory backing, such plates are in fact non compliant with the law but tolerated.

A common misconception is that vehicles with CD plates are also subject to immunity and so for example can park how they like, they (and their drivers unless the driver themselves are the diplomat) are afforded no immunity and subject to the same laws as the rest of us, embassies however have a habit of simply ignoring vehicle related fines.

08-10-2018 03:59PM

Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 sets it out. As said it is not a free for all.

ED E · 08-10-2018 04:03PM

If you can ID the nation in question the court of public opinion can have an impact when the traditional courts may not.

Hector Savage · 08-10-2018 04:04PM

BANG..... HAS JUST BEEN REVOKED !!!

* sorry

endacl · 08-10-2018 04:04PM

Off topic:

Who else always hears the phrase ‘diplomatic immunity’ in a South African accent?

coylemj · 08-10-2018 04:10PM

ED E wrote: »

If you can ID the nation in question the court of public opinion can have an impact when the traditional courts may not.

Don't think so. A few years ago, Joe Duffy had a call from a woman who picked up a dinge in her car thanks to a car driven by a Nigerian diplomat. He drove off so she contacted the Gardai and together the woman and the Gardai went to the embassy to see if it could be sorted. Instead, the so-called diplomat ordered them out and while they stood on the footpath, he stood in the garden of the embassy (Leeson Park, D4) and told them in very undiplomatic language what they could do with themselves. The Gardai told the woman there was nothing they could do about it. The woman told Joe that there was several scrapes and dinges on the embassy car so it appeared that the guy had been leaving his signature all over town with reckless abandon, knowing he could get away with it.

The 'court of public opinion' did you say?

Victor · 08-10-2018 05:41PM

UrbanVixen wrote: »

Does it apply to criminal and or civil law scenarios ?

Both. Sisk V Italy meant that Sisk had to chase their money in Italy for work in Dublin.

My question is prompted by a very naughty piece of driving that I observed yesterday with a CD registration.

Best avenue would be letter to embassy copied for Department of Foreign Affairs.

GM228 wrote: »

+1, CD has no statutory backing, such plates are in fact non compliant with the law but tolerated.

If it is genuinely owned by a diplomat, enforcement is difficult.

A common misconception is that vehicles with CD plates are also subject to immunity and so for example can park how they like, they (and their drivers unless the driver themselves are the diplomat) are afforded no immunity and subject to the same laws as the rest of us, embassies however have a habit of simply ignoring vehicle related fines.

As I understand it, the vehicle is covered while there is a diplomat in it, as which point all of the vehicle occupants are temporarily immune.

coylemj wrote: »

The 'court of public opinion' did you say?

It works better with the likes of Sweden and The Netherlands. The 'court of public opinion' that matters consists primarily of the minds of the ambassador and the deputy head of mission who don't want negative publicity associated with their country or diplomatic mission.

Eric Cartman · 08-10-2018 05:43PM

is there any immunity from taxation or any way to have taxation immunity ?

bri007 · 08-10-2018 05:49PM

A car hit my mirror a few years ago driven by a foreign diplomat. Got the reg and all, went to Garda and reported it Garda got back to me to inform me I’ve no chance with this and to go though my insurance.

I found it strange at the time, angry in fact that someone could do that and get away with it.

I withness very dangerous driving recently by a car with similar circumstances, overtaking at speed and not a care in the world, caught up with him at the next down and asked why he was driving like that, well I won’t write what he said!!

Find it crazy they can get away with what they like.

marieholmfan · 08-10-2018 05:53PM

American diplomat killed a kid in Ireland a while ago. nothing done at all,
the yanks are laughing at us.

bri007 wrote: »

A car hit my mirror a few years ago driven by a foreign diplomat. Got the reg and all, went to Garda and reported it Garda got back to me to inform me I’ve no chance with this and to go though my insurance.

I found it strange at the time, angry in fact that someone could do that and get away with it.

I withness very dangerous driving recently by a car with similar circumstances, overtaking at speed and not a care in the world, caught up with him at the next down and asked why he was driving like that, well I won’t write what he said!!

Find it crazy they can get away with what they like.

Victor · 08-10-2018 06:02PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

is there any immunity from taxation or any way to have taxation immunity ?

Essentially yes. They might even be doubly exempt in the cases of certain taxes, e.g. they can reclaim taxes on purchases in the host country and import things from their own country tax free. Apparently, some west African country's embassy was, at one point, one of the UK's major tobacco importers.

A friend has worked for both the UN and another international organisation. With the UN, one pay's income taxes in your home country. With this particular international organisation, she has the option of paying no income tax, but this would also mean no social insurance.

Eric Cartman · 08-10-2018 06:04PM

Victor wrote: »

Essentially yes. They might even be doubly exempt in the cases of certain taxes, e.g. they can reclaim taxes on purchases in the host country and import things from their own country tax free. Apparently, some west African country's embassy was, at one point, one of the UK's major tobacco importers.

A friend has worked for both the UN and another international organisation. With the UN, one pay's income taxes in your home country. With this particular international organisation, she has the option of paying no income tax, but this would also mean no social insurance.

and how may I as a citizen of Ireland , Irish born start a company with this arrangement / achieve this in the north of Ireland.

aaakev · 08-10-2018 06:07PM

marieholmfan wrote: »

American diplomat killed a kid in Ireland a while ago. nothing done at all,
the yanks are laughing at us.

When did that happen? Iv looked but cant fimd anything online about it

ED E · 08-10-2018 06:16PM

coylemj wrote: »

Don't think so. A few years ago, Joe Duffy had a call from a woman who picked up a dinge in her car thanks to a car driven by a Nigerian diplomat. He drove off so she contacted the Gardai and together the woman and the Gardai went to the embassy to see if it could be sorted. Instead, the so-called diplomat ordered them out and while they stood on the footpath, he stood in the garden of the embassy (Leeson Park, D4) and told them in very undiplomatic language what they could do with themselves. The Gardai told the woman there was nothing they could do about it. The woman told Joe that there was several scrapes and dinges on the embassy car so it appeared that the guy had been leaving his signature all over town with reckless abandon, knowing he could get away with it.

The 'court of public opinion' did you say?

Maybe the French or German ambassador would be more conscious of PR than the Nigerian.

STB. · 08-10-2018 06:16PM

bri007 wrote: »

A car hit my mirror a few years ago driven by a foreign diplomat. Got the reg and all, went to Garda and reported it Garda got back to me to inform me I’ve no chance with this and to go though my insurance.

I found it strange at the time, angry in fact that someone could do that and get away with it.

I withness very dangerous driving recently by a car with similar circumstances, overtaking at speed and not a care in the world, caught up with him at the next down and asked why he was driving like that, well I won’t write what he said!!

Find it crazy they can get away with what they like.

DFA would be quick to remind the Embassy that they are not outside the law but it is abused.

Most countries waive the DI for serious enough stuff.

And hey it has been known to happen with our own abroad!

That claim about the US diplomat - there was a case earlier this year in Pakistan.

ED E wrote: »

Maybe the French or German ambassador would be more conscious of PR than the Nigerian.

Wasn't a Nigerian Embassy official recalled a few years back for using diplomatic privilege to avoid having to pay a house maid a shed load of money ?

jhenno78 · 08-10-2018 06:26PM

STB. wrote: »

Wasn't a Nigerian Embassy official recalled a few years back for using diplomatic privilege to avoid having to pay a house maid a shed load of money ?

UAE

link

Victor · 08-10-2018 07:04PM

ED E wrote: »

Maybe the French or German ambassador would be more conscious of PR than the Nigerian.

I suspect you will often find it is not the ambassador that engage in abuses, but the lower officials and families.

STB. · 08-10-2018 07:19PM

jhenno78 wrote: »

UAE

link

Nigerian was the one I was think of.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/embassy-worker-claims-immunity-over-order-to-pay-46000-wage-bill-29535922.html

Cookie_Monster · 08-10-2018 07:26PM

Even the EU take the piss with this one, diplomat in NZ didn't bother paying $20k in rent and got away with it
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/105360300/european-diplomat-wont-have-to-pay-20000-bill-to-landlord

jhenno78 · 08-10-2018 07:58PM

STB. wrote: »

Nigerian was the one I was think of.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/embassy-worker-claims-immunity-over-order-to-pay-46000-wage-bill-29535922.html

Well, that's depressing.

A quick search suggests that it's something that happens in a lot embassies all over the world.

lobbylad · 08-10-2018 08:13PM

Even worse, the prices that diplomatic staff pay for cars here is depressing.

Wander into Frank Keane BMW in Blackrock and they usually have an "Embassy Price list" for cars on the counter, about 50% of the price us locals have to pay (eh, and before someone comments, I can't afford one, I was only looking)

STB. · 08-10-2018 08:33PM

lobbylad wrote: »

Even worse, the prices that diplomatic staff pay for cars here is depressing.

Wander into Frank Keane BMW in Blackrock and they usually have an "Embassy Price list" for cars on the counter, about 50% of the price us locals have to pay (eh, and before someone comments, I can't afford one, I was only looking)

Same for all diplomatic staff all over the world. Once you are longer than 12 months in another country working in that game you are entitled to it!

Your rent is paid for too. And the allowance for doing the job nearly doubles your salary!

UrbanVixen · 09-10-2018 10:26AM

Thanks everyone for those replies - most illuminating.

At a practical level it seems that you deal with diplomatic types at your peril.

Seems that the only option is to cut off their Ferrero Rochers...........

coylemj · 09-10-2018 11:33AM

UrbanVixen wrote: »

At a practical level it seems that you deal with diplomatic types at your peril.

Seems that the only option is to cut off their Ferrero Rochers...........

When an embassy proposes to bring a new diplomat into a country, the name is submitted to the local foreign ministry and the locals can refuse him diplomatic accreditation. Which effectively means he is not welcome.

So I suspect that if you manage to get on a blacklist (I'm sure one exists) through bad behaviour in an earlier posting, it's probably the end of your career in the foreign service if you are working for a western government.

On the general issue of interactions with the locals, I'm sure that EU and most western embassies operating in Ireland have motor insurance on their cars. I have never heard of a situation where someone got their car smashed up by a car from a western embassy and was out of pocket as a result. Ambassadors (and often their spouses) are usually driven by a chauffeur who in most cases would be Irish and who would not have diplomatic immunity.

ED E · 09-10-2018 05:48PM

Victor wrote: »

I suspect you will often find it is not the ambassador that engage in abuses, but the lower officials and families.

I'm all too familiar with the antics of one of the RU attaches kids :rolleyes:

Duke O Smiley · 09-10-2018 05:58PM

The Irish papal nuncio claimed diplomatic immunity when Colm O'Gorman sued the Diocese of Ferns and JP 2 in 1998.

Embassy staff don't go pulling the diplomatic immunity card for things like traffic offences. If you know what embassy the car belongs to, you can write them, and often they will discipline the driver of the car if and as they see fit.

coylemj · 09-10-2018 06:47PM

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

Embassy staff don't go pulling the diplomatic immunity card for things like traffic offences.

So what you're saying is that every embassy in Dublin pays their parking tickets. And if an accredited diplomat from any embassy is pulled over by the Gardai for crashing a red light or parking in a disabled spot, he accepts a bollicking with good grace and does not flash his diplomatic passport?

Your statement is way too general, given that it covers hundreds of people who fall into the category of diplomat and their families. They are not all the saints that you make them out to be.

Diplomatic immunity.

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