Diplomatic immunity.

UrbanVixen

What is the conceptual basis of diplomatic immunity ?

Is it set out in statute and or under some convention ?

Does it apply to criminal and or civil law scenarios ?

Not a request for advice. My question is prompted by a very naughty piece of driving that I observed yesterday with a CD registration.

gimli2112

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity


Some good examples here of how it's applied to vehicle issues.

coylemj

UrbanVixen wrote: »

My question is prompted by a very naughty piece of driving that I observed yesterday with a CD registration.

Diplomatic Immunity has been invoked for far more serious offences than naughty driving. To answer your question, it can be invoked for criminal or civil actions. In very serious cases and if we're not talking about corrupt countries where the diplomats are all family and cronies, the embassy can withdraw immunity from the individual and they can be prosecuted. Otherwise, the only sanction the host country has is to ask the embassy to send the person home.

But a CD plate on a car means nothing, it could be privately owned where the driver bought the car from an embassy. You'll probably find that the likes of US and UK diplomats do not use them. Because it would only attract attention to them and if they're stopped by the cops, they can flash their diplomatic passports and they will be on their way before you can say 'Vienna Convention'.

GM228

Diplomatic immunity and associated privileges stem from the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961 and the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963 which codified time immemorial recognised rights.

The various provisions of the conventions are provided in Irish law via the Diplomatic Relations and Immunities Act 1967 as amended.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

But a CD plate on a car means nothing

+1, CD has no statutory backing, such plates are in fact non compliant with the law but tolerated.

A common misconception is that vehicles with CD plates are also subject to immunity and so for example can park how they like, they (and their drivers unless the driver themselves are the diplomat) are afforded no immunity and subject to the same laws as the rest of us, embassies however have a habit of simply ignoring vehicle related fines.

Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 sets it out. As said it is not a free for all.

ED E

If you can ID the nation in question the court of public opinion can have an impact when the traditional courts may not.

Hector Savage

BANG..... HAS JUST BEEN REVOKED !!!



* sorry

endacl

Off topic:

Who else always hears the phrase ‘diplomatic immunity’ in a South African accent?

coylemj

ED E wrote: »

If you can ID the nation in question the court of public opinion can have an impact when the traditional courts may not.

Don't think so. A few years ago, Joe Duffy had a call from a woman who picked up a dinge in her car thanks to a car driven by a Nigerian diplomat. He drove off so she contacted the Gardai and together the woman and the Gardai went to the embassy to see if it could be sorted. Instead, the so-called diplomat ordered them out and while they stood on the footpath, he stood in the garden of the embassy (Leeson Park, D4) and told them in very undiplomatic language what they could do with themselves. The Gardai told the woman there was nothing they could do about it. The woman told Joe that there was several scrapes and dinges on the embassy car so it appeared that the guy had been leaving his signature all over town with reckless abandon, knowing he could get away with it.

The 'court of public opinion' did you say?

Victor

UrbanVixen wrote: »

Does it apply to criminal and or civil law scenarios ?

Both. Sisk V Italy meant that Sisk had to chase their money in Italy for work in Dublin.

My question is prompted by a very naughty piece of driving that I observed yesterday with a CD registration.

Best avenue would be letter to embassy copied for Department of Foreign Affairs.

GM228 wrote: »

+1, CD has no statutory backing, such plates are in fact non compliant with the law but tolerated.

If it is genuinely owned by a diplomat, enforcement is difficult.

A common misconception is that vehicles with CD plates are also subject to immunity and so for example can park how they like, they (and their drivers unless the driver themselves are the diplomat) are afforded no immunity and subject to the same laws as the rest of us, embassies however have a habit of simply ignoring vehicle related fines.

As I understand it, the vehicle is covered while there is a diplomat in it, as which point all of the vehicle occupants are temporarily immune.

coylemj wrote: »

The 'court of public opinion' did you say?

It works better with the likes of Sweden and The Netherlands. The 'court of public opinion' that matters consists primarily of the minds of the ambassador and the deputy head of mission who don't want negative publicity associated with their country or diplomatic mission.

Eric Cartman

is there any immunity from taxation or any way to have taxation immunity ?

bri007

A car hit my mirror a few years ago driven by a foreign diplomat. Got the reg and all, went to Garda and reported it Garda got back to me to inform me I’ve no chance with this and to go though my insurance.

I found it strange at the time, angry in fact that someone could do that and get away with it.

I withness very dangerous driving recently by a car with similar circumstances, overtaking at speed and not a care in the world, caught up with him at the next down and asked why he was driving like that, well I won’t write what he said!!

Find it crazy they can get away with what they like.

marieholmfan

American diplomat killed a kid in Ireland a while ago. nothing done at all,
the yanks are laughing at us.

bri007 wrote: »

A car hit my mirror a few years ago driven by a foreign diplomat. Got the reg and all, went to Garda and reported it Garda got back to me to inform me I’ve no chance with this and to go though my insurance.

I found it strange at the time, angry in fact that someone could do that and get away with it.

I withness very dangerous driving recently by a car with similar circumstances, overtaking at speed and not a care in the world, caught up with him at the next down and asked why he was driving like that, well I won’t write what he said!!

Find it crazy they can get away with what they like.

Victor

Eric Cartman wrote: »

is there any immunity from taxation or any way to have taxation immunity ?

Essentially yes. They might even be doubly exempt in the cases of certain taxes, e.g. they can reclaim taxes on purchases in the host country and import things from their own country tax free. Apparently, some west African country's embassy was, at one point, one of the UK's major tobacco importers.

A friend has worked for both the UN and another international organisation. With the UN, one pay's income taxes in your home country. With this particular international organisation, she has the option of paying no income tax, but this would also mean no social insurance.

Eric Cartman

Victor wrote: »

Essentially yes. They might even be doubly exempt in the cases of certain taxes, e.g. they can reclaim taxes on purchases in the host country and import things from their own country tax free. Apparently, some west African country's embassy was, at one point, one of the UK's major tobacco importers.

A friend has worked for both the UN and another international organisation. With the UN, one pay's income taxes in your home country. With this particular international organisation, she has the option of paying no income tax, but this would also mean no social insurance.

and how may I as a citizen of Ireland , Irish born start a company with this arrangement / achieve this in the north of Ireland.

aaakev

marieholmfan wrote: »

American diplomat killed a kid in Ireland a while ago. nothing done at all,
the yanks are laughing at us.

When did that happen? Iv looked but cant fimd anything online about it

ED E

coylemj wrote: »

Don't think so. A few years ago, Joe Duffy had a call from a woman who picked up a dinge in her car thanks to a car driven by a Nigerian diplomat. He drove off so she contacted the Gardai and together the woman and the Gardai went to the embassy to see if it could be sorted. Instead, the so-called diplomat ordered them out and while they stood on the footpath, he stood in the garden of the embassy (Leeson Park, D4) and told them in very undiplomatic language what they could do with themselves. The Gardai told the woman there was nothing they could do about it. The woman told Joe that there was several scrapes and dinges on the embassy car so it appeared that the guy had been leaving his signature all over town with reckless abandon, knowing he could get away with it.

The 'court of public opinion' did you say?

Maybe the French or German ambassador would be more conscious of PR than the Nigerian.

STB.

bri007 wrote: »

A car hit my mirror a few years ago driven by a foreign diplomat. Got the reg and all, went to Garda and reported it Garda got back to me to inform me I’ve no chance with this and to go though my insurance.

I found it strange at the time, angry in fact that someone could do that and get away with it.

I withness very dangerous driving recently by a car with similar circumstances, overtaking at speed and not a care in the world, caught up with him at the next down and asked why he was driving like that, well I won’t write what he said!!

Find it crazy they can get away with what they like.

DFA would be quick to remind the Embassy that they are not outside the law but it is abused.

Most countries waive the DI for serious enough stuff.

And hey it has been known to happen with our own abroad!

That claim about the US diplomat - there was a case earlier this year in Pakistan.

ED E wrote: »

Maybe the French or German ambassador would be more conscious of PR than the Nigerian.

Wasn't a Nigerian Embassy official recalled a few years back for using diplomatic privilege to avoid having to pay a house maid a shed load of money ?

jhenno78

STB. wrote: »

Wasn't a Nigerian Embassy official recalled a few years back for using diplomatic privilege to avoid having to pay a house maid a shed load of money ?

UAE

link

Victor

ED E wrote: »

Maybe the French or German ambassador would be more conscious of PR than the Nigerian.

I suspect you will often find it is not the ambassador that engage in abuses, but the lower officials and families.

STB.

jhenno78 wrote: »

UAE

link

Nigerian was the one I was think of.


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/embassy-worker-claims-immunity-over-order-to-pay-46000-wage-bill-29535922.html

Cookie_Monster

Even the EU take the piss with this one, diplomat in NZ didn't bother paying $20k in rent and got away with it
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/105360300/european-diplomat-wont-have-to-pay-20000-bill-to-landlord

jhenno78

STB. wrote: »

Nigerian was the one I was think of.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/embassy-worker-claims-immunity-over-order-to-pay-46000-wage-bill-29535922.html

Well, that's depressing.

A quick search suggests that it's something that happens in a lot embassies all over the world.

lobbylad

Even worse, the prices that diplomatic staff pay for cars here is depressing.

Wander into Frank Keane BMW in Blackrock and they usually have an "Embassy Price list" for cars on the counter, about 50% of the price us locals have to pay (eh, and before someone comments, I can't afford one, I was only looking)

STB.

lobbylad wrote: »

Even worse, the prices that diplomatic staff pay for cars here is depressing.

Wander into Frank Keane BMW in Blackrock and they usually have an "Embassy Price list" for cars on the counter, about 50% of the price us locals have to pay (eh, and before someone comments, I can't afford one, I was only looking)

Same for all diplomatic staff all over the world. Once you are longer than 12 months in another country working in that game you are entitled to it!

Your rent is paid for too. And the allowance for doing the job nearly doubles your salary!

UrbanVixen

Thanks everyone for those replies - most illuminating.

At a practical level it seems that you deal with diplomatic types at your peril.

Seems that the only option is to cut off their Ferrero Rochers...........

coylemj

UrbanVixen wrote: »

At a practical level it seems that you deal with diplomatic types at your peril.

Seems that the only option is to cut off their Ferrero Rochers...........

When an embassy proposes to bring a new diplomat into a country, the name is submitted to the local foreign ministry and the locals can refuse him diplomatic accreditation. Which effectively means he is not welcome.

So I suspect that if you manage to get on a blacklist (I'm sure one exists) through bad behaviour in an earlier posting, it's probably the end of your career in the foreign service if you are working for a western government.

On the general issue of interactions with the locals, I'm sure that EU and most western embassies operating in Ireland have motor insurance on their cars. I have never heard of a situation where someone got their car smashed up by a car from a western embassy and was out of pocket as a result. Ambassadors (and often their spouses) are usually driven by a chauffeur who in most cases would be Irish and who would not have diplomatic immunity.

ED E

Victor wrote: »

I suspect you will often find it is not the ambassador that engage in abuses, but the lower officials and families.

I'm all too familiar with the antics of one of the RU attaches kids :rolleyes:

Duke O Smiley

The Irish papal nuncio claimed diplomatic immunity when Colm O'Gorman sued the Diocese of Ferns and JP 2 in 1998.

Embassy staff don't go pulling the diplomatic immunity card for things like traffic offences. If you know what embassy the car belongs to, you can write them, and often they will discipline the driver of the car if and as they see fit.

coylemj

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

Embassy staff don't go pulling the diplomatic immunity card for things like traffic offences.

So what you're saying is that every embassy in Dublin pays their parking tickets. And if an accredited diplomat from any embassy is pulled over by the Gardai for crashing a red light or parking in a disabled spot, he accepts a bollicking with good grace and does not flash his diplomatic passport?

Your statement is way too general, given that it covers hundreds of people who fall into the category of diplomat and their families. They are not all the saints that you make them out to be.

Duke O Smiley

You're right, that was a bit general. To rephrase: A large majority of minor staff from high profile embassies do not go pulling the immunity line for trivial things like traffic offences.

Most embassies try to maintain a good public image, and obviously do not want bad PR. Contrary to seemingly very popular belief, they aren't here with the sole intention of running amok.

If a diplomatic car is pulled over, the driver doesn't just hold up two fingers in one hand and a diplomatic passport in another to the Guard before driving off into the sunset. The embassy in question will (or should) be notified and in many cases appropriate action is taken.

coylemj

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

If a diplomatic car is pulled over, the driver doesn't just hold up two fingers in one hand and a diplomatic passport in another to the Guard before driving off into the sunset. The embassy in question will (or should) be notified and in many cases appropriate action is taken.

There is a logical fallacy in that statement. Any diplomat who gives two fingers to a Garda will do so because he feels safe that there there will be no consequences from his ambassador or the the foreign service of his home country. And any diplomat who knows that there will be consequences will be polite and civil in his/her dealings with the local police.

And that's before you take into consideration that most Gardai wouldn't be bothered tackling the paperwork required to report such an incident. Because they know that nothing will come of it.

Peregrinus

Dept of Foreign Affairs policy is to encourage guards to report incidents, file paperwork, etc. In an individual case no enforcement action is possible, but if a pattern builds up Iveagh House will make representations to embassy concerned. Many embassies have policy that staff should pay parking tickets, etc; complaint to ambassador may result in kick-in-the-pants/career black mark for offending junior diplomat.

Cookie_Monster

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

Embassy staff don't go pulling the diplomatic immunity card for things like traffic offences..

Except they do, look at the rent example with the EU diplomat in NZ I've already given...

L1011

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and how may I as a citizen of Ireland , Irish born start a company with this arrangement / achieve this in the north of Ireland.

You would need to be accredited diplomatic staff of which we have none in NI since the GFA

coylemj

Peregrinus wrote: »

Dept of Foreign Affairs policy is to encourage guards to report incidents, file paperwork, etc.

And the reason the Gardai don't bother is because .....

Peregrinus wrote: »

In an individual case no enforcement action is possible.....

Peregrinus wrote: »

Many embassies have policy that staff should pay parking tickets, etc; complaint to ambassador may result in kick-in-the-pants/career black mark for offending junior diplomat.

The diplomats who work in those embassies are probably career diplomats who are careful about their reputation in the foreign service, they want to move up the ladder and unless absolutely necessary, they avoid invoking diplomatic immunity in case it creates a paper trail which might go on their record. Do you think the culture you've described applies in the Nigerian Embassy in Dublin? Hint: see post #10

Peregrinus

coylemj wrote: »

The diplomats who work in those embassies are probably career diplomats who are careful about their reputation in the foreign service, they want to move up the ladder and unless absolutely necessary, they avoid invoking diplomatic immunity in case it creates a paper trail which might go on their record. Do you think the culture you've described applies in the Nigerian Embassy in Dublin? Hint: see post #10

It doesn't apply in the Nigerian embassy anywhere, so far as I can see; Nigeria seems to regard its diplomatic service principally as a patronage mechanism for conferring perks on the spoilt offspring of political players and other influential people, while conveniently getting them out of the country to minimise the harm they can do. A Nigerian ambassador isn't in the least fazed if a junior diplomat repudiates a debt or runs away from a traffic accident, because he knows the whole reason they became diplomats in the first place was precisely so they could do such things.

But Nigeria is not typical; it's an outlier. It's at the far end of a range of civic responsibility displayed by embassies. Saudi Arabia is towards that end also.
At the other end, somewhat surprisingly, is China, whose diplomats are scrupulous about settling their bills and paying their parking tickets. Japan, Sweden, the UK are up there too. Basically, if a country is notoriously corrupt at home, it will tend to abuse diplomatic immunity, and vice versa.

Sometimes the matter is complicated by a genuine row. The US embassy in London is pretty effective at making sure staff pay tickets for parking, driving, etc infringements. But it refuses to pay the London congestion charge which it regards not as a penalty but as a tax from which, as an embassy, it should be exempt. And they've run up a huge unpaid bill for that.

The matter can also be complicated because some embassies like on principle to assert and exercise diplomatic immunity, and they never waive it, but they punish the offending diplomat under their own law. A Romanian diplomat, for instance, who escaped punishment in Singapore for a dangerous-driving-causing-death incident, was prosecuted for manslaughter on his return to Romania, was convicted, and died in prison. A Russian diplomat who was immune from a similar charge in Canada spent four years in a Russian prison.

marieholmfan

Whatever about the Romanian (and frankly I doubt Romanian prisons are soft) the Russian must have been wishing he had contrived to waive his immunity.

Peregrinus wrote: »

It doesn't apply in the Nigerian embassy anywhere, so far as I can see; Nigeria seems to regard its diplomatic service principally as a patronage mechanism for conferring perks on the spoilt offspring of political players and other influential people, while conveniently getting them out of the country to minimise the harm they can do. A Nigerian ambassador isn't in the least fazed if a junior diplomat repudiates a debt or runs away from a traffic accident, because he knows the whole reason they became diplomats in the first place was precisely so they could do such things.

But Nigeria is not typical; it's an outlier. It's at the far end of a range of civic responsibility displayed by embassies. Saudi Arabia is towards that end also.
At the other end, somewhat surprisingly, is China, whose diplomats are scrupulous about settling their bills and paying their parking tickets. Japan, Sweden, the UK are up there too. Basically, if a country is notoriously corrupt at home, it will tend to abuse diplomatic immunity, and vice versa.

Sometimes the matter is complicated by a genuine row. The US embassy in London is pretty effective at making sure staff pay tickets for parking, driving, etc infringements. But it refuses to pay the London congestion charge which it regards not as a penalty but as a tax from which, as an embassy, it should be exempt. And they've run up a huge unpaid bill for that.

The matter can also be complicated because some embassies like on principle to assert and exercise diplomatic immunity, and they never waive it, but they punish the offending diplomat under their own law. A Romanian diplomat, for instance, who escaped punishment in Singapore for a dangerous-driving-causing-death incident, was prosecuted for manslaughter on his return to Romania, was convicted, and died in prison. A Russian diplomat who was immune from a similar charge in Canada spent four years in a Russian prison.

Marcusm

Peregrinus wrote: »

It doesn't apply in the Nigerian embassy anywhere, so far as I can see; Nigeria seems to regard its diplomatic service principally as a patronage mechanism for conferring perks on the spoilt offspring of political players and other influential people, while conveniently getting them out of the country to minimise the harm they can do. A Nigerian ambassador isn't in the least fazed if a junior diplomat repudiates a debt or runs away from a traffic accident, because he knows the whole reason they became diplomats in the first place was precisely so they could do such things.

But Nigeria is not typical; it's an outlier. It's at the far end of a range of civic responsibility displayed by embassies. Saudi Arabia is towards that end also.
At the other end, somewhat surprisingly, is China, whose diplomats are scrupulous about settling their bills and paying their parking tickets. Japan, Sweden, the UK are up there too. Basically, if a country is notoriously corrupt at home, it will tend to abuse diplomatic immunity, and vice versa.

Sometimes the matter is complicated by a genuine row. The US embassy in London is pretty effective at making sure staff pay tickets for parking, driving, etc infringements. But it refuses to pay the London congestion charge which it regards not as a penalty but as a tax from which, as an embassy, it should be exempt. And they've run up a huge unpaid bill for that.

The matter can also be complicated because some embassies like on principle to assert and exercise diplomatic immunity, and they never waive it, but they punish the offending diplomat under their own law. A Romanian diplomat, for instance, who escaped punishment in Singapore for a dangerous-driving-causing-death incident, was prosecuted for manslaughter on his return to Romania, was convicted, and died in prison. A Russian diplomat who was immune from a similar charge in Canada spent four years in a Russian prison.

When BoJo tried to force the congestion charge the US retaliated in the most exquisite way. He had been born in the US and was this a US citizen from birth. He and his wife had recently sold their home which was a PPR for U.K. CGT. The US equivalent is much less generous and the IRS sought to recover US tax from him. I cannot recall how the matter was ultimately settled.

hullaballoo

BJ paid his taxes because it was the only way to get the IRS to let it go. He then renounced his citizenship so that he won't be caught again but it wasn't open to him to renounce and seek to rely on the renunciation to avoid the tax.