Journalism and cycling

ford2600 · 08-10-2018 11:49AM

Rechuchote wrote: »

We could have automated cameras hidden in trees that can issue fines and send them out to speeders.

How do you propose we regularly calibrate all these cameras hidden in trees such that any evidence obtained in useable in a prosecution as per the relevant ISO/BS?

JMcL · 08-10-2018 12:26PM

Playing catch up here, been away for a few days

meeeeh wrote: »

So you don't want roads to be made safer and you get outraged when pedestrians are asked to adapt to the conditions on the roads to make themselves safer? OK.

Well, the problem is that if you make the road itself "safer" (remove the hedgerows, hard shoulder, etc. etc.) it encourages even faster driving as it's now considered a "great stretch of road". Other's have pointed out the ecological impact which is not insignificant - it's not just disrupting birds, it's the destruction of habitats for pollinators. What can be done is better traffic calming in villages. I'm not sure of the effectiveness of the narrow traffic calming bit at the entrance to villages frankly - it too often seems to be not much more than a target to aim for and creates a pinch point for cyclists. Maybe not speed bumps as they frequently seem to be in camoflage mode in this country, but chicanes (with bike/pedestrian access on the inside), even to the extent that cars can only go in one direction at a time. Latter is in place in the suburb of Paris my wive grew up in, and is seems to work well. I've seen them throughout France, in villages with little narrow streets that wouldn't be unsimilar to what was being discussed in Irish terms.

Open rural roads between villages are another matter - there's simply too many kilometers of them to do anything meaningful in terms of infrastructure

07Lapierre wrote: »

At least two were killed at junctions in Dublin City (HGV turning left)

The man killed at night was crossing the road near Christchurch Cathedral.

I'd have to look up the details regarding the others.

The guy killed in Waterford last December was on an 80kmph road - good quality and reasonable sightlines AFAIK at the point where it happened. It happened around 7am so it would be dark at that point and the road is unlit there.

ford2600 wrote: »

* as a 15 year old I was one of 9 in a mini. Driver wouldn't have been drunk but not sober either. An eye wouldn't have been blinked at the time. Around that time a local publican used to fit half of under 14 team in his Fiat Ritmo and rally drive to games..

I think our record was 8 in a Fiat 127, stopped by a guard who just shook his head and told us to get on an get them out quick as possible.

Not to mention the rush to be the one that gets to sit in the boot (usually with the dog). Contrast that to kids being secured in 5 point harnesses, booster seats with airbags etc and cars have become a lot safer. But again here, the feeling of personal safety contributes to a higher appetite for risk. Be it more powerful, safer cars (for the occupants), or in our own parish, somebody throwing themselves round hairpins on the wrong side of the road safe in the knowledge they have their foam hat on*

* I know I mentioned it, but please let's not go down that rabbit hole

Macy0161 · 08-10-2018 02:04PM

ford2600 wrote: »

With regard to speed/alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage there has been a seismic shift in attitudes and behaviour. I could tell countless stories of behaviours than were acceptable when I was a teenager and in my 20's which people would be afraid to tell no such is the taboo around them but would have been seen as funny at the time. I'm 43. (I'll add 3 below for demonstration) You might still hear them told in Kilgarvan...

We need a seismic shift with regard to phone usage.

Yes, on reflection you're right on stuff like overfilling and child safety (I think I was one of 12 in a car, sat on a knee, with a younger cousin on me knee. Maybe it was a big contributor to road deaths, but I'm not particularly aware of where it was families (as opposed to a load of youngsters, which unfortunately has still resulted in deaths in recent years)

However, I'm really not seeing the seismic shift to speed (and to a lesser degree alcohol). I would contend speeding is so endemic and accepted is the reason it's politically toxic to properly enforce. How can "shooting fish in a barrell" or "money making/ flash for cash" be so acceptable commentary to so many, if attitudes to speed had really changed?

I'm similar age as yourself. When I was the age of my eldest, I was off out on the bike all day long, walked to friends houses on rural roads etc. I won't let my 11 year old out like that, and I doubt my parents would given how the roads are either. No helmets or hi viz either (EverReady lamps or a bottle dynamo).

tomasrojo · 08-10-2018 07:23PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Except if you want to make sure that people don't speed and that part of the road is therefore a lot safer... Isn't that the aim? Actual garda manned speed checks can be for catching serious offenders.

As for average speed cameras I think they mostly work on motorways. Irish motorways are relatively empty and safe so I assume it would be more or less pointless. Average speed cameras on roads with turn off every 30 meters won't work (I think).

The idea should be that you never know when you'll be caught, so you'll stop speeding everywhere. But people love speeding and don't really think it's harmful, so we have this weird compromise.

AndrewJRenko · 08-10-2018 10:39PM

ford2600 wrote: »

With regard to speed/alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage there has been a seismic shift in attitudes and behaviour. I could tell countless stories of behaviours than were acceptable when I was a teenager and in my 20's which people would be afraid to tell no such is the taboo around them but would have been seen as funny at the time. I'm 43. (I'll add 3 below for demonstration) You might still hear them told in Kilgarvan...

We need a seismic shift with regard to phone usage.

We've had shifts on alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage all right, but I don't think we've had much of a shift on speed. RSA Speed Surveys show 3 or 4 out of 5 drivers breaking speed limits.

And phone use is endemic now. We are 2nd worst in Europe and the European League table of mobile phone abuse.

CramCycle · 08-10-2018 10:48PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

The idea should be that you never know when you'll be caught, so you'll stop speeding everywhere. But people love speeding and don't really think it's harmful, so we have this weird compromise.

People don't even think their speeding. Talk to most people about it. On country roads, shure i was at or below the limit, therefore I could not have been driving too fast, it's been an accepted defence in court. On motorways, look at here, facebook, twitter, all you hear are complaints, people saying we should have our motorways like the autobahn (typically people who have never been on an autobahn and don't realise how they operate), no need for a speed limit on our motorways.
I now avoid lifts with certain family members and friends because their driving is dangerous and offensive. They may not have had accidents but I don't want to be in the car when they do.

CramCycle · 08-10-2018 10:52PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We've had shifts on alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage all right, but I don't think we've had much of a shift on speed. RSA Speed Surveys show 3 or 4 out of 5 drivers breaking speed limits.

And phone use is endemic now. We are 2nd worst in Europe and the European League table of mobile phone abuse.

Interestingly I think we are the most honest about it to anonymous surveys, almost a silent F U to the establishment,

Rechuchote · 09-10-2018 07:56AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

personally, i'd like to see the money spent on more gardai than on speed cameras. i know it shouldn't be either/or, but it is. especially with the week that's in it.

Not the same.

a) Automated cameras would be a lot cheaper, and would catch a lot more people and therefore cut the speeding rates far more because the word would spread.
b) Before looking for more gardaí we'd need a change in garda culture.
c) The gardaí that we actually need are to investigate things like people creeping around farmyards with lurchers and then creeping off with expensive farm machinery.
d) (not in answer to MB's post) It's not on the M50 that we need automated speed cameras - at least the first to be installed - so much as on urban and suburban junctions.
e) We badly need traffic policing - illegal parking, mobile phone use in cars, speeding to be separated from Garda work and done by a new and separate group who can issue tickets, like the old meter maids; we also need to automate a lot of it - for instance having front and back cameras on buses to automatically issue fines to people illegally driving in bus lanes.
f) We need a cultural change so that all of the above is seen as safety, and as important for individuals and society, rather than a shocking and mean interference in the rights of private citizens to post a funny picture on Instagram while swerving back and forth through traffic and red lights at speed.

randomname2005 · 09-10-2018 11:38AM

Rechuchote wrote: »

Not the same.

a) Automated cameras would be a lot cheaper, and would catch a lot more people and therefore cut the speeding rates far more because the word would spread.
b) Before looking for more gardaí we'd need a change in garda culture.
c) The gardaí that we actually need are to investigate things like people creeping around farmyards with lurchers and then creeping off with expensive farm machinery.
d) (not in answer to MB's post) It's not on the M50 that we need automated speed cameras - at least the first to be installed - so much as on urban and suburban junctions.
e) We badly need traffic policing - illegal parking, mobile phone use in cars, speeding to be separated from Garda work and done by a new and separate group who can issue tickets, like the old meter maids; we also need to automate a lot of it - for instance having front and back cameras on buses to automatically issue fines to people illegally driving in bus lanes.
f) We need a cultural change so that all of the above is seen as safety, and as important for individuals and society, rather than a shocking and mean interference in the rights of private citizens to post a funny picture on Instagram while swerving back and forth through traffic and red lights at speed.

I agree with these ideas, but I don't think we, as a country are mature enough to accept these (echoing point f). There will be cries of nanny state, invasion of privacy etc. We have finally gotten to a point (in most of the country) where drink driving is seen as the dangerous activity that it is, but there is no widespread recognition that speeding can be as dangerous, that accelerating when the light goes orange and passing over the line when the light is red is not okay. And I have no idea how this message can be gotten through to Joe and Jane Soap while the gardai are either not there to enforce it, or turn a blind eye to it - if it is not being enforced then it must not be important, right?

meeeeh · 09-10-2018 11:48AM

CramCycle wrote: »

On motorways, look at here, facebook, twitter, all you hear are complaints, people saying we should have our motorways like the autobahn (typically people who have never been on an autobahn and don't realise how they operate), no need for a speed limit on our motorways.

I'm not in favour of no speed limit on motorways and a lot of German motorways have it anyway but I don't think higher 130 kph speed limit would be an issue. But can I ask how do autobahns operate? I drove there before and haven't noticed any major difference.

magicbastarder · 09-10-2018 11:56AM

autobahns are not necessarily safer.
i know a comparison is probably a little foolish, but they carry 30% of traffic in germany and account for 11% of fatalities.
in the UK, they carry 20% of traffic but account for 6% of fatalities.

plus, not all autobahns are limit-free.

meeeeh · 09-10-2018 12:04PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

autobahns are not necessarily safer.
i know a comparison is probably a little foolish, but they carry 30% of traffic in germany and account for 11% of fatalities.
in the UK, they carry 20% of traffic but account for 6% of fatalities.

plus, not all autobahns are limit-free.

I know that. I just don't there is anything different about them or at least I don't remember them being any different. Frankly driving on a busy autobahn when you are not used driving there constantly is not a picnic, you really need to concentrate. In comparison Irish motorways are very easy to drive on. Best I've driven on though are actually Hungarian because everyone knows very well how to behave on motorways and they are fairly empty.

Macy0161 · 09-10-2018 12:15PM

I really don't see motorways as the focus for speeding, especially in the context of the safety of vulnerable road users like cyclists and pedestrians. Urban and regional road should be the main focus for speeding, and compliance in general. I was in before 7 this morning - the 7-7 bus lanes were ridiculous for the speed that motorists were travelling, and driver behaviour in general.

Snickers Man · 09-10-2018 12:51PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

it completely negates the whole point of them. you shouldn't be given forewarning about the (very limited) specific spots you actually need to adhere to the speed limit on.

What IS "the whole point of them"? To catch a few people and fine them or to improve general road user behaviour and thereby improve safety?

I would suggest the latter but there are clearly some people with a taste for vindictiveness who would prefer the former.

It's analogous to the asinine point of view, forcibly expressed by some on these boards, that "flashing" oncoming motorists to warn them of a speed check should be an offence. It should be rewarded!!

Personally I find that one of the most effective ways of encouraging me to take my foot off the gas is the use of flashing electronic speedometers linked to speed limit signs at the side of the road which tell you your speed when it is approaching or exceeding the local limit. It's a great way of reminding you that you may have strayed into dangerous driving territory.

Of course such signs don't discourage those who are tempted to speed regardless. No sympathy for THEM when they are caught. But they do act as a good spur (if that is the right analogy!) to those who may have absentmindedly failed to realise that they are in a lower speed limit area or that they have not noticed their speed has picked up. They/we tend to adjust accordingly and do so without the burden of a fine and points.

That's a good thing, as far as I am concerned. But it won't please the "Hang 'em and flog 'em!" brigade.

Snickers Man · 09-10-2018 12:58PM

meeeeh wrote: »

But can I ask how do autobahns operate? I drove there before and haven't noticed any major difference.

I know nobody hitch hikes any more but in my dim and distant youth (1980s) while hitchhiking in Europe, you would absolutely know the difference between an Autobahn in Germany and, say, a French Autoroute.

While hitching at a service area (hitchhiking on Autobahnen themselves is Strengst Verboten) the noise of the cars in Germany was quantitatively different from elsewhere.

In most countries cars sound like cars; on an Autobahn they sound like jet fighters on an airport runway. Yeeoowww!!!

randomname2005 · 09-10-2018 01:02PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

What IS "the whole point of them"? To catch a few people and fine them or to improve general road user behaviour and thereby improve safety?

Are the two mutually exclusive? As I see it, there is no catching and fining for a lot of offences (such as breaking red lights, using phones, driving in bus lanes during operation hours). If a few (or many) are caught then the general road user behaviour improves, as does road safety.

magicbastarder · 09-10-2018 01:12PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

It's analogous to the asinine point of view, forcibly expressed by some on these boards, that "flashing" oncoming motorists to warn them of a speed check should be an offence. It should be rewarded!!

**** 'em - if they're speeding, let them get caught. might cool their jets a bit.

Snickers Man · 09-10-2018 01:24PM

randomname2005 wrote: »

Are the two mutually exclusive?

No but they're not synonymous or symbiotic either and the latter is more important.

Internet Friend · 09-10-2018 01:52PM

Budget related: Funding (unspecified figure) is being allocated to planning and completing greenways, nothing more really said about it but we'll find out more at some stage.

Felexicon · 09-10-2018 02:20PM

Internet Friend wrote: »

Budget related: Funding (unspecified figure) is being allocated to planning and completing greenways, nothing more really said about it but we'll find out more at some stage.

€10m for Greenways I thought.

Internet Friend · 09-10-2018 02:22PM

Felexicon wrote: »

€10m for Greenways I thought.

Ah, must have missed that.

Macy0161 · 09-10-2018 03:15PM

Snickers Man wrote:

What IS "the whole point of them"? To catch a few people and fine them or to improve general road user behaviour and thereby improve safety?

I think the point is, if they were more of them, more randomly placed, there'd be more overall compliance. Rather than the compliance being just in the short runs that people know they are frequently. Even the whole restriction of private cameras to black spots is a sop to the social acceptance of speeding.

RobbieMD · 09-10-2018 03:19PM

Rechuchote wrote: »

Not the same.

a) Automated cameras would be a lot cheaper, and would catch a lot more people and therefore cut the speeding rates far more because the word would spread.
b) Before looking for more gardaí we'd need a change in garda culture.
c) The gardaí that we actually need are to investigate things like people creeping around farmyards with lurchers and then creeping off with expensive farm machinery.
d) (not in answer to MB's post) It's not on the M50 that we need automated speed cameras - at least the first to be installed - so much as on urban and suburban junctions.
e) We badly need traffic policing - illegal parking, mobile phone use in cars, speeding to be separated from Garda work and done by a new and separate group who can issue tickets, like the old meter maids; we also need to automate a lot of it - for instance having front and back cameras on buses to automatically issue fines to people illegally driving in bus lanes.
f) We need a cultural change so that all of the above is seen as safety, and as important for individuals and society, rather than a shocking and mean interference in the rights of private citizens to post a funny picture on Instagram while swerving back and forth through traffic and red lights at speed.

How would the bus camera differentiate between someone blatantly being in the bus lane, and someone entering the lane to turn left at a junction? Or would someone have to review 1000s hrs of bus footage to issue whatever the fine is... Seems mad to me.

randomname2005 · 09-10-2018 04:25PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

No but they're not synonymous or symbiotic either and the latter is more important.

If I may presume that the benefits of the symbiotic relationship would be the reduction in the number of fines and points on one side and the increase in driving standards on the other, then it won't happen because there will always be people who value five minutes of their time over the safety of others.

cdaly_ · 09-10-2018 05:12PM

RobbieMD wrote: »

How would the bus camera differentiate between someone blatantly being in the bus lane, and someone entering the lane to turn left at a junction? Or would someone have to review 1000s hrs of bus footage to issue whatever the fine is... Seems mad to me.

Presumably if they're within the dashed line area at the junction they're ok, otherwise they get points and fine. It wouldn't be hard to either have dashed line recognition or gps-based location recognition.

CramCycle · 09-10-2018 05:36PM

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not in favour of no speed limit on motorways and a lot of German motorways have it anyway but I don't think higher 130 kph speed limit would be an issue. But can I ask how do autobahns operate? I drove there before and haven't noticed any major difference.

I suppose the point is that our lanes are only rated to safely drive at 120kmph. There is a specific minimum width that a lane must be to accomodate the almost unnoticed drifting that increases with a vehicle, directly related to its speed. Parts of the M50 are not 100kmph for the fun of it, they are like that because it has been assessed that the lanes are not suitable for higher speed limits. We won't ever see those limits increase IMO, no matter how people feel about how safe it is.

magicbastarder wrote: »

autobahns are not necessarily safer.
i know a comparison is probably a little foolish, but they carry 30% of traffic in germany and account for 11% of fatalities.
in the UK, they carry 20% of traffic but account for 6% of fatalities.

plus, not all autobahns are limit-free.

They are not, which alot of people don't realise, the speed limit often changes on them depending on other things going on.

cdaly_ wrote: »

Presumably if they're within the dashed line area at the junction they're ok, otherwise they get points and fine. It wouldn't be hard to either have dashed line recognition or gps-based location recognition.

Put a decent margin of error in there and your sorted

Lumen · 09-10-2018 05:44PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

autobahns are not necessarily safer.
i know a comparison is probably a little foolish, but they carry 30% of traffic in germany and account for 11% of fatalities.
in the UK, they carry 20% of traffic but account for 6% of fatalities.

plus, not all autobahns are limit-free.

From what I read, almost no autobahns are limit free. I think I've seen 4% quoted. And many of those are dual carriageways.

RobbieMD · 09-10-2018 05:49PM

cdaly_ wrote: »

Presumably if they're within the dashed line area at the junction they're ok, otherwise they get points and fine. It wouldn't be hard to either have dashed line recognition or gps-based location recognition.

And how much would these cameras cost? An absolute fortune. Cost prohibitive I'd say. Dublin bus and other bus services would have to be onboard with this. And then who pays to run it? How would the data be stored? If the prosecution is in the name of AGS, then how do they account for the custody of the evidence? Ie the hard drive or whatever. In theory it's a fine idea, but in practice, to prosecute it criminally would be a nightmare

cdaly_ · 09-10-2018 06:26PM

RobbieMD wrote: »

And how much would these cameras cost? An absolute fortune. Cost prohibitive I'd say.

Cameras already on board, just a data stream problem.

Dublin bus and other bus services would have to be onboard with this.

BusConnects...

And then who pays to run it?

See my first point + your taxes.

How would the data be stored?

Who knows.

If the prosecution is in the name of AGS, then how do they account for the custody of the evidence?

Some clever method I don't doubt, just like they do with privately operated speed camera vans.

Ie the hard drive or whatever. In theory it's a fine idea, but in practice, to prosecute it criminally would be a nightmare

Just like with privately operated speed camera vans.

magicbastarder · 09-10-2018 06:35PM

is the data not already stored? it's mainly a jurisdictional issue i suspect.
if the traffic corps can act on footage sent in from joe soap in pursuing a complaint, how would scaling up such a system work?

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