Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

Dannyriver · 06-10-2018 2:39pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

There has been two pages of nonsense about whether the organiser of the door-step protest against Flake is a full-time paid activist - it is nonsense.

For f*ck sake - Washington has more than 15,000 full-time paid lobbyists who do exactly the same thing across a whole range of issues.

Trump hired actors to turn up and cheer at his events (Clinton also hired actors) - lobby groups hire 'rent-a-crowd' all the time in the US.

It is a completely superfluous argument to the much bigger - and more concerning - issues.

I actually disagree with you on this - the GOP and the Democrats are two cheeks off of the same a*se - they just represent different wings of the rich elite establishment (GOP the old money and the oil money - the Democrats financial capital and the vulture funds).

The real struggle is not between these two cheeks - it is a struggle between progressive elements and reactionary elements in society - and the USA has reactionary elements to spare (the creationists who want to control the curriculum in schools - the religious fundamentalists who want their 'religious beliefs' to dominate society - the racists who want white domination re-established - the misogynists who want patriarchy to be the dominant mode of relationships etc).

The struggle for rights is now manifesting itself on the streets and in a major strike wave that has spread across America - manifest in movements like the -

- The 15Now movement for a minimum wage of $15 an hour (a movement that forced low pay onto the political agenda in 2016 and has seen its latest success, after a series of strikes, in forcing Jeff Bazos to increase the minimum wage for Amazon workers to $15 an hour).
- The BlackLivesMatters movement that has brought racism back onto the political agenda after several decades
- The MeToo movement that has focused massive attention on the issue violence against women, sexism, discrimination, patriarchy and misogyny - and the attempt to limit abortion rights in the US
- The strike wave among teachers that has been sweeping across America this year as a result of the fact that education is falling apart at the seams as the vulture funds jockey to fleece the education system for as much money as they can get.

These are the struggles that are taking place - and the opposition to Kavanaugh is a manifestation of how traditional elephant and donkey politics no longer represents the majority of the American population. And lost in all the kerfuffle about Kavanaugh is that a few weeks ago Trump blocked a pay increase for more than 2 million civilian federal employees - federal employees now earn significantly less thatn they did ten years ago (while at the same time handing $100billion tax cut to the super-rich in America).

Party voter registration has been consistently falling since 2006 - when the wheels began to come off the economic bubble. For example - just 8% of registered Republicans are under 30 years of age.

The nature of party affiliation is demonstrated by the fact that 54% of registered Republicans said they support Kavanaugh's ratification to the Supreme Court - even if he is guilty of sexual assault against Ford - how sick is that - being willing to put a perpetrator of sexual assault onto the Supreme Court because it serves your wider political interests. This of course represents the roughly 10% of American society that is in-your-face predominantly older, white, male. redneck, christian fundamentalist, misogynist (and often racist).

There was a political sea-change since 2008 - Obama brought visions of hope to large swathes of American society - but he was just another run-of-the-mill corporate president. Since then an increasing percentage of the American population have been abandoning 'traditional' politics and taking to the streets.

The nature of this sea-change was demonstrated by the massive support for Sanders in the primaries - despite the fact that Sanders' programme was not particularly radical, but it was seen as a major departure from the staid politics of the elephant and the donkey. The mistake Sanders made was not abandoning the Democrats and running as an independent when he was shafted by the top dogs in the DNC. He may not have won - but it would have been fun to see Trump and Clinton lining up up to attack him - and his campaign would have built a mass radical movement around his candidacy.

The divide in American society is a class divide - a divide between wealth and poverty - a divide between power and hopelessness. There are the initial signs of changes occurring that could harness the movements on the streets and in the workplaces.

e.g.
- the re-election of Kshama Sawant in 2015 to Seattle City Council (the first Marxist elected in Seattle in more than 100 years - Sawant is a member of Socialist Alternative which is a sister party of the Socialist Party in Ireland) - re-elected despite the fact that the GOP and the DNC combined and threw an estimated $3million into a campaign to unseat her

- the victories in the primaries for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib for Congress - members of the Democratic Socialists of America (who have seen their membership increase ten-fold since 2015) - coupled with state victories for DSA members in Iowa, Montana, Tennessee, Virginia, Minnesota and Massachusetts in 2017. There is an increasing number of DSA candidates in city and state elections who could potentially win over the coming period.

As happens in times of crisis (and the US is going through a crisis) the political norm is thorn asunder and large sections of the population begin searching for alternative politics. The Democrats should be wiping out the Republicans in the elections next month - they aren't because they can't - and this year's mid-terms is likely to see an attitude of a plague on both yer houses - because neither of the two cheeks offer anything to a significant majority of the American population.

Well argued very refreshing addition to the thread. Kudos.:)

Jolly Red Giant · 06-10-2018 3:20pm

I posted this earlier on another platform - and it is relevant here as well

Here is one for the 'irony' folder.

In 1989 a woman was sexually assaulted and badly beaten in Central Park New York. The police arrested five black youths aged between 14-16, and forced confessions from them in the absence of their parents and lawyers. The five all pleaded not guilty in court but were convicted on the basis of their forced confessions. There was zero physical evidence and no witnesses. The boys spent between 6-13 years in prison. In 2012 DNA evidence recovered from the victim in 1989, was matched to a known sex offender - a serial rapist and convicted murderer - that the police allowed to escape and continue to rape women. The five boys were exonerated in 2002 and their records expunged. NYC ended up paying out $41million in compensation.

But guess where the frenzy accusing the boys came from - you go it - it came from the Trumper - Donald Trump took out full page adverts in four NYC newspapers (at a cost of $86,000) trying to whip up a lynch mob against the five boys - for a crime they did not commit. Trump attempted to whip up a frenzy by engaging in a racist campaign against five young boys saying 'I want to hate these muggers and murderers. They should be forced to suffer'. When asked during the election campaign in 2016 if he would apologise to the five men for his actions - Trump stated "They admitted they were guilty. The police doing the original investigation say they were guilty. The fact that that case was settled with so much evidence against them is outrageous. And the woman, so badly injured, will never be the same' - DNA evidence exonerated the five men - a serial rapist and murderer was proven to be the perpetrator (he even confessed to the crime) - but Trump is Trump - and even when evidence exists Trump will dismiss it and claim he was right to demand a return of the death penalty.

Compare all of this to Trump's behaviour over the past few weeks (ignoring everything else he has done since elected) - and for Trump if the accused is a white, privileged, misogynist then he deserves to be believed - if the accused is a young black teenager (five of them) then it is another story.

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MightyMandarin · 06-10-2018 3:28pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

The past month has shown Kavanaugh is totally unsuitable for the role. He has shown himself to be a liar, completely partisan and dangerously unhinged under pressure. The fact that the Republican party are enabling him highlights they will do everything possible to hold onto power for as long as possible.

I agree with this.

Your argument that if Dr Ford had said nothing and stayed at home the Republicans wouldn't be as riled up doesn't have any basis in fact. Everything that's happened last 10 years and longer suggests that. When Obama was elected you had hordes of Republicans taking to the streets to protest. They spent 8 years blocking him at every turn. He spent a full year trying to incorporate bi-partisan ideas into the health care bill was was told to go f**k himself. They made sure that the supreme court seat was empty for 14 months so Obama couldn't get his pick nominated.

I never mentioned Ford, I'm on about the protestors (who do more harm than good) and the Democrats (who've virtue-signalled Kavanaugh to the SC because they want to boost their chances in the midterms). Let's not forget Ford wanted to remain anonymous, it was the Democrats who leaked her story. The poor woman did not want to go to DC, she said it herself, but they rolled out the red carpet and pushed her all the way to the hill. Feinstein, Schumer, Blumenthal et al behaved in a disgusting manner imo.

Let's also not forget it was Schumer who described Kavanaugh as 'evil' and swore he would block him, before he even knew anything about him. They're as dreadful as the GOP in this regard, yet the media loves to act like they're the moral beacons of innocence in this saga.

The Republicans have been riled up for a long time. Everyday you have millions listening to far-right propaganda on tv, radio and online and buying into it. Its been that way for 20+ years. They couldn't wait to rub it everyone's faces when they passed the health bill in the house..celebrating with a party on the white house lawn.

If you look at the figures though, Democrat voters were 20% more concerned about the mid-terms than Republican voters were 6 months ago. In fact they had a huge gap the past 2 years. That's been completely wiped away the past few weeks. This whole ordeal has been brilliant for the GOP in riling up their base.

Doesn't explain why its out of control though. Will there be people who abuse its good intentions..of course there will.

I can't speak for the women who who worked for Weinstein. I can't speak for the kids who were abused by a Marist Brother in my small hometown either.

You can't speak for anyone, but Meryl Streep and Oprah have no problem grandstanding every bloody week about 'feminism' while their convicted-rapist buddy Polanski hides away in France. The #metoo movement is crippled with hypocrisy from head-to-toe.

Dannyriver · 06-10-2018 3:46pm

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I agree with this.

I never mentioned Ford, I'm on about the protestors (who do more harm than good) and the Democrats (who've virtue-signalled Kavanaugh to the SC because they want to boost their chances in the midterms). Let's not forget Ford wanted to remain anonymous, it was the Democrats who leaked her story. The poor woman did not want to go to DC, she said it herself, but they rolled out the red carpet and pushed her all the way to the hill. Feinstein, Schumer, Blumenthal et al behaved in a disgusting manner imo.

Let's also not forget it was Schumer who described Kavanaugh as 'evil' and swore he would block him, before he even knew anything about him. They're as dreadful as the GOP in this regard, yet the media loves to act like they're the moral beacons of innocence in this saga.

If you look at the figures though, Democrat voters were 20% more concerned about the mid-terms than Republican voters were 6 months ago. In fact they had a huge gap the past 2 years. That's been completely wiped away the past few weeks. This whole ordeal has been brilliant for the GOP in riling up their base.

You can't speak for anyone, but Meryl Streep and Oprah have no problem grandstanding every bloody week about 'feminism' while their convicted-rapist buddy Polanski hides away in France. The #metoo movement is crippled with hypocrisy from head-to-toe.

Can you please explain what you mean by this sentence ...

MightyMandarin · 06-10-2018 3:59pm

Dannyriver wrote: »

Can you please explain what you mean by this sentence ...

Sure. Watch the hearings last week with Kavanaugh and Dr. Ford and you'll see on one side Lindsey Graham and a few others grandstand and rile up their base to drill in fear before the elections in order to bring the supporters out to vote.

Watch the other side however and you'll see every single bloody one of the Democrats grandstand but also constantly claim that they're somehow more moral than the others despite all the **** they pulled during the whole process. They constantly took advantage of Ford in order to use her as a tool to get to Kavanaugh and played up to the #metoo movement in order to play the victim card and rile up their base just before the mid terms. They knew he would get through all along, they just wanted a spectacle.

I'm not saying they're worse than the GOP here, but by God are they just as bad.

Jolly Red Giant · 06-10-2018 4:10pm

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Sure. Watch the hearings last week with Kavanaugh and Dr. Ford and you'll see on one side Lindsey Graham and a few others grandstand and rile up their base to drill in fear before the elections in order to bring the supporters out to vote.

Watch the other side however and you'll see every single bloody one of the Democrats grandstand but also constantly claim that they're somehow more moral than the others despite all the **** they pulled during the whole process. They constantly took advantage of Ford in order to use her as a tool to get to Kavanaugh and played up to the #metoo movement in order to play the victim card and rile up their base just before the mid terms. They knew he would get through all along, they just wanted a spectacle.

I'm not saying they're worse than the GOP here, but by God are they just as bad.

Two cheeks of the same a*se :rolleyes:

MightyMandarin · 06-10-2018 4:33pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Two cheeks of the same a*se :rolleyes:

100% and I've been saying it for years. The same eejits who thought a Hillary win would change everything are the same eejits who think it's the GOP only who are the bad guys in this episode. The lack of critical thinking among people truly astounds me some times, because we seem to only be able to think in a "Us vs.Them" mode.

It's almost like you can't be anti-Kavanaugh but still call out the bs of the Democrats, the virtue-signallers in the Senate judiciary committee, the whingebags protesting on Capitol Hill and the overall rottenness of the #metoo movement.

enfant terrible · 06-10-2018 4:42pm

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I know nothing about Swetnick because her claims seems very dubious and Avenatti is a complete opportunistic. It is unfortunate that her allegations and Ford's allegations ended up being discussed together. It seems for some people that Swetnick's cancelled out Ford's by association.

After all this, and given the strengths of Ford's testimony and the timing of when she mentioned the assault to others relative to Kavanagh's nomination, I still think the most likely situation is that he committed the assault but simply can't remember it due to drunkiness.

I also still think that after he testified, the most compelling reason why he shouldn't be on the supreme court were his extreme partisanship, conspiracy theories, conflating "don't remember" with "didn't happen" and almost certain perjury.

Those 100 law professors and that retired Justice stated Kavanagh shouldn't be on the supreme court not because of the assault allegations but because of that testimony and his behavior at the hearing.

I wonder down the road, perhaps after 2020 if the democrats regain both the house and the senate, might they upon a perjury investigation. Clarence Thomas survived his allegations but it is a much different world today.

I'm the opposite I think the most likely situation is Kavanaugh did not assault Ford.

I would agree with Catherine Cherkasky assessment of Ford's allegations

"Extremism is the opposite of intellectual discourse. I can’t respect the absolutes that have been established in this debate: If you don't believe Ford, you don't believe victims; if you testify with apparent vulnerability, you speak only truth; if you believe in false allegations, you’re a misogynist.

It is a display of hysteria to rally around Ford — ignoring the inconsistencies and omissions in her tale — as the poster child of women’s rights."

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/10/04/false-accusations-kavanaugh-ford-innocent-column/1488329002/

RIGOLO · 06-10-2018 4:59pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

I posted this earlier on another platform - and it is relevant here as well

Here is one for the 'irony' folder.

In 1989 a woman was sexually assaulted and badly beaten in Central Park New York. ...The police arrested five black youths aged between 14-16, and forced confessions from them in the absence of their parents and lawyers. The five all pleaded not guilty in court but were convicted on the basis of their forced confessions. There was zero physical evidence and no witnesses. The boys spent between 6-13 years in prison. In 2012 DNA evidence recovered from the victim in 1989, was matched to a known sex offender - a serial rapist and convicted murderer - that the police allowed to escape and continue to rape women. The five boys were exonerated in 2002 and their records expunged. NYC ended up paying out $41million in compensation.

But guess where the frenzy accusing the boys came from - you go it - it came from the Trumper - Donald Trump took out full page adverts in four NYC newspapers (at a cost of $86,000) trying to whip up a lynch mob against the five boys - for a crime they did not commit. Trump attempted to whip up a frenzy by engaging in a racist campaign against five young boys saying 'I want to hate these muggers and murderers. They should be forced to suffer'. When asked during the election campaign in 2016 if he would apologise to the five men for his actions - Trump stated "They admitted they were guilty. The police doing the original investigation say they were guilty. The fact that that case was settled with so much evidence against them is outrageous. And the woman, so badly injured, will never be the same' - DNA evidence exonerated the five men - a serial rapist and murderer was proven to be the perpetrator (he even confessed to the crime) - but Trump is Trump - and even when evidence exists Trump will dismiss it and claim he was right to demand a return of the death penalty.

Compare all of this to Trump's behaviour over the past few weeks (ignoring everything else he has done since elected) - and for Trump if the accused is a white, privileged, misogynist then he deserves to be believed - if the accused is a young black teenager (five of them) then it is another story.

How many people actually read Trumps op-ed piece in hte above post.
I expect few if any did. You probaly saw the words 'lynch mod' 'racist' etc and said yep that says it all.
There was no lynch mob called for, Trump was requesting the restoration of capitol puntisment.
There was no racist bias in it.
He clearly states in hte piece " What has happened to law and order that New York families - white, black, hispanic and asian have had to give up the pleasure of walking in hte park at dusk "
Id also doubt any of you were in New York in the mid to late 80s, it was a very different place and time.
And you neglect to highlight all his comments were based on the outcome of a court that had found them guilty, it wasnt until 2012 that DNA gave light to a mis-carriage.
Id suggest posters read the piece, if theres something in it you dont like , have at it .
A very simplistic post, with a few click bait sensationalist comments sure to draw some fans with an inherent bias.

Rjd2 · 06-10-2018 5:00pm

MightyMandarin wrote: »

100% and I've been saying it for years. The same eejits who thought a Hillary win would change everything are the same eejits who think it's the GOP only who are the bad guys in this episode. The lack of critical thinking among people truly astounds me some times, because we seem to only be able to think in a "Us vs.Them" mode.

It's almost like you can't be anti-Kavanaugh but still call out the bs of the Democrats, the virtue-signallers in the Senate judiciary committee, the whingebags protesting on Capitol Hill and the overall rottenness of the #metoo movement.

Agreed on a lot of that. Kav should not have been confirmed, Graham was a disgrace and Grassley ugh just ugh. However the Dems were not great either, some grandstanding with 2020 in mind and less said about Feinstein the better. They also could have won this battle, ignore Manchin as he would have voted no if it came down to him, they were only able to get 1 Republican to switch sides.

I think the incident also has exposed a lot of journos who supposedly are fair and balanced, only Tapper, Yashir Ali and a few others have tried to maintain there high standards, so many others went to war for there side.

Midlife · 06-10-2018 5:41pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

A very simplistic post, with a few click bait sensationalist comments sure to draw some fans with an inherent bias.

Wow, a Trump supporter says this with zero shame.

Impressive stuff.

batgoat · 06-10-2018 5:47pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

How many people actually read Trumps op-ed piece in hte above post.
I expect few if any did. You probaly saw the words 'lynch mod' 'racist' etc and said yep that says it all.
There was no lynch mob called for, Trump was requesting the restoration of capitol puntisment.
There was no racist bias in it.
He clearly states in hte piece " What has happened to law and order that New York families - white, black, hispanic and asian have had to give up the pleasure of walking in hte park at dusk "
Id also doubt any of you were in New York in the mid to late 80s, it was a very different place and time.
And you neglect to highlight all his comments were based on the outcome of a court that had found them guilty, it wasnt until 2012 that DNA gave light to a mis-carriage.
Id suggest posters read the piece, if theres something in it you dont like , have at it .
A very simplistic post, with a few click bait sensationalist comments sure to draw some fans with an inherent bias.

He claimed they were still guilty during the election...

Professor Moriarty · 06-10-2018 5:56pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

How many people actually read Trumps op-ed piece in hte above post.
I expect few if any did. You probaly saw the words 'lynch mod' 'racist' etc and said yep that says it all.
There was no lynch mob called for, Trump was requesting the restoration of capitol puntisment.
There was no racist bias in it.
He clearly states in hte piece " What has happened to law and order that New York families - white, black, hispanic and asian have had to give up the pleasure of walking in hte park at dusk "
Id also doubt any of you were in New York in the mid to late 80s, it was a very different place and time.
And you neglect to highlight all his comments were based on the outcome of a court that had found them guilty, it wasnt until 2012 that DNA gave light to a mis-carriage.
Id suggest posters read the piece, if theres something in it you dont like , have at it .
A very simplistic post, with a few click bait sensationalist comments sure to draw some fans with an inherent bias.

I was in NY in the mid 80s. Black people suffered awful poverty, dreadful living conditions and terrible discrimination.

Igotadose · 06-10-2018 6:17pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I was in NY in the mid 80s. Black people suffered awful poverty, dreadful living conditions and terrible discrimination.

Trump and his father being sued for redlining, shithole countries, the Central Park 5... yeah, Trump's not a racist. Uhuh.

Midlife · 06-10-2018 6:17pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

Id suggest posters read the piece, if theres something in it you dont like , have at it.

I disagree with the death penalty. I also disagree that we should forget about instances of police brutality.

This seems to be all the piece says to me.

What about you Rigolo? Do you agree with the death penalty. Do you think that police abuse should be ignored??

Captain Obvious · 06-10-2018 6:36pm

So what time is the vote Irish time?

RIGOLO · 06-10-2018 6:37pm

Midlife wrote: »

RIGOLO wrote: »

Id suggest posters read the piece, if theres something in it you dont like , have at it.

I disagree with the death penalty. I also disagree that we should forget about instances of police brutality.

This seems to be all the piece says to me.

What about you Rigolo? Do you agree with the death penalty. Do you think that police abuse should be ignored??

Just to set some context for the time that Trump op-ed was writtern.
There were over 2000 murders in NY in 1989.
In 1990 the murder peaked at over 2400 murders in one year.
The SAME day as the assault in Central Park discussed above, a woman in Brooklyn was taken by 3 men to the top of a four storey building, raped and sodomised and then given the fast way down, not by stairs and not by elevator but thrown off the side of a 4 storey building to the street below.
People should keep that in mind, when reading Trumps op-ed from 1989.
If you still think what he said was out of order thats your perogative.
Personally i think he hit the nail on the head with what he wrote AT THE TIME.

Leroy42 · 06-10-2018 7:05pm

Ah so racism is merely a product of the times. Suppose the same can be said of slavery.

And at the time, I suppose the Jews were messing up things a bit in Germany so, taken at the time, Hitler had a point.

What a nauseating and pathetic response Rigolo. Racism is never acceptable.

But again, it is just more hypocrisy. Everything is wrong and terrible unless someone you support does it then we need to consider the reasons why.

Quin_Dub · 06-10-2018 7:09pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

If you still think what he said was out of order thats your perogative.
Personally i think he hit the nail on the head with what he wrote AT THE TIME.

Ok . So maybe he was capturing the late Eighties zeitgeist.. Or something

But explain his continued insistence that the 5 black boys are guilty despite being fully exonerated by DNA evidence and the real killer confessing???

Why is he dong that?

RIGOLO · 06-10-2018 7:09pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Ah so racism is merely a product of the times. Suppose the same can be said of slavery.

And at the time, I suppose the Jews were messing up things a bit in Germany so, taken at the time, Hitler had a point.

What a nauseating and pathetic response Rigolo. Racism is never acceptable.

But again, it is just more hypocrisy. Everything is wrong and terrible unless someone you support does it then we need to consider the reasons why.

We were talking about the op-ed he wrote and the contents of it .
I noticed you didnt quote any line from the op-ed in your post.
Feel free to highlight the racist lines in it.
Well done on throwing out the 1930s reference, its been a few pages since we had it. The left can always rely on that chestnut to bring the discussion where they want it to go.

Midlife · 06-10-2018 7:26pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

Just to set some context for the time that Trump op-ed was writtern.
There were over 2000 murders in NY in 1989.
In 1990 the murder peaked at over 2400 murders in one year.
The SAME day as the assault in Central Park discussed above, a woman in Brooklyn was taken by 3 men to the top of a four storey building, raped and sodomised and then given the fast way down, not by stairs and not by elevator but thrown off the side of a 4 storey building to the street below.
People should keep that in mind, when reading Trumps op-ed from 1989.
If you still think what he said was out of order thats your perogative.
Personally i think he hit the nail on the head with what he wrote AT THE TIME.

So New York introduced the death penalty and things got better? This made Trump right.

That's what happened, right? Because that would be him 'hitting the nail on the head AT THE TIME' as you say.

If it got better without the death penalty and more police brutality, then he was demonstrably wrong.

2 Scoops · 06-10-2018 7:34pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So what time is the vote Irish time?

Happening now, Schumer just finished and McConnell will say a few final words then it's vote time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEzo-mbGOhU

Leroy42 · 06-10-2018 7:39pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

We were talking about the op-ed he wrote and the contents of it .
I noticed you didnt quote any line from the op-ed in your post.
Feel free to highlight the racist lines in it.
Well done on throwing out the 1930s reference, its been a few pages since we had it. The left can always rely on that chestnut to bring the discussion where they want it to go.

I don't need to quote any lines from it, I was replying to your take on it. You stated your opinion that it was written within the context of the time. That the city was under seige. Yet he clearly was targeting these black lads, and you yourself brought up another case. Yet you failed to mention the countless murders by white people.

As for the references, yes for history is a great educator. I know you know this as you are very quick to point out plenty of historic things in order to try to give your opinion more standing.

That is such obvious simularities is unfortunate, but true and to ignore them is to ignore the possible lessons.

But as usual, you deflect into some sort of victim mode to avoid standing by your position.

RobertKK · 06-10-2018 7:48pm

Anti-democracy protester in the viewers gallery for the vote escorted out.

2 Scoops · 06-10-2018 7:50pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Anti-democracy protester in the viewers gallery for the vote escorted out.

So much screeeeching it's embarrassing..

Vote is done

Leroy42 · 06-10-2018 7:54pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

So much screeeeching it's embarrassing..

Vote is done

But thousands of people screaming 'Lock her up' is just what?

TomOnBoard · 06-10-2018 7:55pm

Brave protestor scales heights of supposed democratic power to decry the blatant sham being conducted on the floor beneath her.

2 Scoops · 06-10-2018 7:59pm

Looks like 50-48 in favour of Kavanaugh, Democracy rules the day.

batgoat · 06-10-2018 7:59pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

But thousands of people screaming 'Lock her up' is just what?

And the President mocking Blasey Ford in front of such a crowd... The double standard is lost on certain posters.

Kiith · 06-10-2018 8:04pm

And he's confirmed.

jobbridge4life · 06-10-2018 8:05pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

Looks like 50-48 in favour of Kavanaugh, Democracy rules the day.

It is terrible for (what is left of) American democracy that the Supreme Court has become so horrendously partisan. Not that this started with Kavanaugh of course but this whole process shows how corrupted the whole thing is.

Just as you mention democracy ruling the day though it is worth remembering that the Democratic party routinely wins more votes (and not merely in presidential elections) but end up with less seats. This is a serious problem, and all whether D or R should truly hope and work for its resolution.

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/07/12/americas-electoral-system-gives-the-republicans-advantages-over-democrats

RobertKK · 06-10-2018 8:06pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

So much screeeeching it's embarrassing..

Vote is done

Game of Thrones or Michael Fassbender fans, not sure wish as they kept shouting 'Shame'.

jobbridge4life · 06-10-2018 8:09pm

Kiith wrote: »

And he's confirmed.

Wasn't it always going to happen really? I mean they chose Trump, and he is manifestly unfit for his role and an all around egregious individual (they literally said so themselves!) so whats another one really?

2 Scoops · 06-10-2018 8:10pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Just as you mention democracy ruling the day though it is worth remembering that the Democratic party routinely wins more votes (and not merely in presidential elections) but end up with less seats. This is a serious problem, and all whether D or R should truly hope and work for its resolution.

California is the highest population state by far and one of the most liberal so it's not surprising to me they end up with more votes.

jobbridge4life · 06-10-2018 8:11pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Game of Thrones or Michael Fassbender fans, not sure wish as they kept shouting 'Shame'.

Really Robert? I've rarely agreed with you, but for the most part I find you intellectually honest in debates. Even if you don't believe the accusations you obviously understand their reasons for shouting it.

jobbridge4life · 06-10-2018 8:12pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

California is the highest population state by far and one of the most liberal so it's not surprising to me they end up with more votes.

I anticipated that comment, it is why I posted the article. Read it.

2 Scoops · 06-10-2018 8:15pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I anticipated that comment, it is why I posted the article. Read it.

It's behind a paywall so I can't so see anything besides the first 2 or 3 paragraphs.

Kermit.de.frog · 06-10-2018 8:19pm

As much as I detest Trump I see this as a victory for common sense against the #metoo "movement".

Leroy42 · 06-10-2018 8:19pm

It is ironic that Trump supporters are so in favour of the current system of democracy in the US. Has the fact that Trump claimed the system was rigged in favour of the DNC, that if he lost it was merely a con job. Has all that been forgotten and now Trump supporters feel that once again the US has a working democracy?

Leroy42 · 06-10-2018 8:23pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

As much as I detest Trump I see this as a victory for common sense against the #metoo "movement".

This is indeed a victory one that relied on mobilising all the inherent advantages inbuilt within the system.

The problem is, that more and more people are now seeing for themselves that very point, they can see that the overwhelming number of politicians are middle aged white guys.

And just like Trump rode a wave of dissatisfaction with the system, they are really playing with fire by not only ignoring the movements, and it is not just the #metoo movement, but in taking a sense of glee in showing their disdain for it.

It continues to stagger me why women are continued to allow this to continue as it is.

RobertKK · 06-10-2018 8:27pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Really Robert? I've rarely agreed with you, but for the most part I find you intellectually honest in debates. Even if you don't believe the accusations you obviously understand their reasons for shouting it.

No, as there was no evidence to back up why shame should have been shouted at the senators voting aye.
Holes in Blasey Ford's stories...
Her ex-boyfriend provided a statement under the charge of perjury if he lied that she never said she had a fear of flying and flew even in propeller planes when they were together, she never said she had claustrophobia which she claimed, and he saw her give advice on how to pass a polygraph test and never mentioned a sexual assault in their 6 years together.
The shame are those protesters who #IBelieveHer as the argument is all allegations have to be accepted and the person accused is automatically guilty because of sexism - a woman said is, so the man has to be viewed as guilty.
That is a very dangerous precedent if it is allowed and it has been good that Brett Kavanaugh got confirmed. Absolutely no evidence and even one of Christine's friends said she was pressured to change her statement from knowing nothing to she believed CBF.
There was nothing in it, and of course Christine Blasey Ford said she would not look to have Kavanaugh impeached, her made up story about him failed and all it has done is raise more questions about the lies she gave in the senate committee.

ECO_Mental · 06-10-2018 8:32pm

Depressing.....forget about the ideological reasons not to vote for Kavanaugh (voting rights, gay rights, workers rights etc etc..) he immediately disqualified himself with his partisan speech about Clinton, trump etc, also he straight up lied about his drinking in college and his diary. Let's not forget about this he lied under oath. There are plenty of his friends even his room mate said he partied hard....

Sad day for America....

Leroy42 · 06-10-2018 8:39pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Her ex-boyfriend provided a statement under the charge of perjury if he lied that she never said she had a fear of flying and flew even in propeller planes when they were together, she never said she had claustrophobia which she claimed, and he saw her give advice on how to pass a polygraph test and never mentioned a sexual assault in their 6 years together.

So let me try to understand your position. Ex boyfriend, of which we know nothing of his motives, claims in his own unquestioned statement something and you believe it.
Ford gives a statement, is questioned in front of the Senate, yet you don't believe her.
Ex boyfriend gives statement that points holes in Fords testimony (it really doesn't, the fact she didn't tell him means nothing) and you take that as reason to support Kavanaugh.
Ex Kavanaugh college friends make statements pointing out his lies and the type of person he really was and you can ignore them because? Well, just because.
Ex SCOTUS claims Kavanaugh should be disqualified yet that is nothing as he isn't directly involved in the vote, Ford's ex boyfriend says she flew (which we already know) and that means she is lying.

You can see the problem, can't you?

2 Scoops · 06-10-2018 8:43pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

You can see the problem, can't you?

Ribble rabble, she provided no specifics and nobody backed up her story. That's all that matters.

Leroy42 · 06-10-2018 8:51pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

Ribble rabble, she provided no specifics and nobody backed up her story. That's all that matters.

No specifics? Did you hear her testimony. She described it in plenty of detail. She included a 3rd person (why would she do this for a lie?). Not the specifics you wanted, but it is false to claim she had no specifics.

Surely him lying in front of the Senate matters?

How he got to that point is not really relevant once he did it.

Can you imagine if when the DNC eventually do manage to get a win, they start to bias all the courts like Trump is doing? Do you remember when Trump claimed that HC would take away their guns? So you are clearly not in favour of political bias when it doesn't suit. Why the change of heart?

Akrasia · 06-10-2018 9:05pm

Well now the Republicans have firm control over all 3 branches of government. So much for checks and balances and an independent judiciary.

All bets are off.

2 Scoops · 06-10-2018 9:07pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

No specifics? Did you hear her testimony. She described it in plenty of detail.

Yes, I watched the entire thing. It didn't change my opinion

Midlife · 06-10-2018 9:33pm

I don't want to get into it too much. I think it's messed up that supreme court decisions are pretty much partisan and open to opinion. Like because this guy was confirmed, the US legal interpretation of something like reproductive rights may change.

All that said, I also think that it would be a problem if historic accusations of sex abuse (which remained unproven) were enough to have a political candidate not be confirmed.

I'm not saying i don't believe the charges but you can see how easy it would be to destory any career if the litmus test was someone claiming historic abuse.

The fact that the bar for evidence is so high in these cases is very unfortunate to those who take them. However, this is also not something that should be a successful strategy by anyone wishing to have a male appointee not confirmed.

Duck Soup · 06-10-2018 9:41pm

There's a breaking news story from the Washington Post that there were a number of complaints from the D.C. Circuit (i.e. other judges) about Kavanaugh’s testimony to Chief Justice Roberts, which Roberts sat on and ignored.

rossie1977 · 06-10-2018 9:47pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

California is the highest population state by far and one of the most liberal so it's not surprising to me they end up with more votes.

Well in the recent Virginia delegate elections alot more people voted Democrat than Republican and Republicans still ended up with more seats.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_House_of_Delegates_election,_2017

Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

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