Poor old folks

up for anything · 04-10-2018 10:05AM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Isn't there something kind of cold about the Irish (Western) way of doing things? It's as if we don't want to inconvenience ourselves with the old folk. I remember my grandfather's nursing home was over 1 grand a week. Surely it would have been cheaper (and nicer) to hire a helper to look after him in one of the family homes.

Who usually gets the lion share of looking after the old folk when they live with family? You are condemning one member of a family to what will become round the clock 24-hour care without help. Which member of the family will you nominate for that? Looking after an old person can be in many instances exactly like looking after a baby or child - doing what feels like constant feeding, changing, medicine rounds, exercise, jollying along, entertaining, talking endlessly about the old days until the day that stops and you wish that it would begin again because anything is better than that constant staring into space.

The routine of installing glasses, hearing aids, teeth and then uninstalling them for an afternoon nap and then installing them again. Getting over the ickiness of touching someone's false teeth or the putting on/changing an adult nappy and wiping crap and knowing you'll be doing it again in an hour and an hour after that. Whether dementia is present or not there can be verbal or physical abuse and certainly a helping of emotional abuse. There's the constant grind of semi-sleepless nights and very early mornings. There's the physicality of the care... it's hard work putting on a pair of compression stockings especially when you're old enough to have arthritic fingers yourself, never mind the dodgy knees that make getting up off the floor after putting on someone else's shoes a job of work on its own - just dressing/undressing someone can be a bit of a marathon.

None of that takes into account the fact that you also then probably have a family to take care of and a house and meals to cook and shopping to do. Even with the best behaved old person, they are still demanding and hard work - not because they intend to be but they have wants that need to be met. Try balancing all that with meeting the needs and challenges of teenagers and a husband/wife who may be fed up of you not wanting mad passionate sex because you're so physically ****ed by the time you fall into bed and you know that at any moment you might hear your elderly charge calling for you on the baby monitor which you've had to rescue from the attic. Not another bloody nappy change when all you want to do is sleep and it doesn't seem so long ago that you lived under the same demanding sleep-deprived militant regime.

Try adding the fact that your parent and you may not have had a wonderful relationship up till that point or it's a pesky in-law who made your life miserable and still does. Add in the fact that although all the people in the house who made a commitment to help you with the care doesn't translate into reality...there's homework, soccer/hurling practice, school, social life and the other adult in the house is in a stressful job with long hours and flakes out arriving home. Depending on where you live there may be hours of taxiing kids around and deciding whether you can live the old boy/old girl on their own for a couple of hours or do you need to put them in the car and ensure that you're able to deal with toilet accidents parked at the local hurling pitch on a dark wet afternoon in the dead of winter.

Life was very different when it was customary to take in your parents or you were already living in their house so it was your job to look after him. Resenting your siblings because you were doing the lion's share and they moaned about an odd weekend and let you down on the weekly couple of hours they were supposed to do...not just once but constantly and you know it's because of their spouses/partners or because they have to meet their children's needs (while you can't your own) or because they're ****ing off on a foreign two-week holiday or collecting their new car which they can afford because they're both working in their house while you're lucky to get away on a mid-week break and hope that your car doesn't break down on the way because you don't have €150 for the tow charge.

It really is not as easy as bringing them to live with you and it being cheaper and nicer. Someone has to lose part of their life in order to keep an old and infirm person at home.

I worked in a private old-folks home for two weeks. Although it was modern and well run with no abuse that I could see, the problem for me was no one gave a fuck about the people inside those bodies and who they were or who they had been. I didn't last longer than two weeks because I could not bear to work somewhere where profit meant more than people. Where I was instructed to walk away from someone who just wanted to tell you who she was, what she could remember of it. To tell some Grandpa Simpson stories because in the telling of them she was that person again and not trapped in bed waiting for strangers to come and get her up and wheel her to a day room where she could stare out a window/look at the tv or wait for the exciting activity for the day to begin.

I could go on and on. I already have.

I know that if I don't die suddenly then before I lose too much physical or mental function, I'm going to have a huge family party and celebrate my life and bore them to death one more time with stories that they've all heard umpteen times and then make a speech about how I'll be doing what I'm going to do for my sake and not theirs and if any of them try and keep me in a semi-vegetative state they'd better hope there's no after-life. Then a few weeks later I'll take a massive amount of tablets (don't ask) and pop my clogs nicely and tidily and there'll be a DNR just in case things go wrong. It's probably easier said than done because the will to cling to life is very strong and I've seen old people I love go from saying what I say to looking to make their 100th birthday. Is it a fear of dying? So the trick must be in the timing.

OMM 0000 · 04-10-2018 10:10AM

Wibbs wrote: »

They're not. Sure, if someone is just old, but is not suffering from a degenerative condition and has all their marbles intact. IMHO people like that should be with their families. If anything they're a positive in family life. However if someone needs 24 hour care such as in the case of stroke victims or dementia that's a very different situation.

I've lived in 6 Asian countries and I can tell you it's normal to have a very sick grandmother or grandfather living with their family.

We can tell ourselves whatever we want to make ourselves feel better, but the reality is Asian families, in general, take care of their old people, and don't put them in homes.

For example, the guy sitting beside me right now, his grandmother wears a nappy and can't walk, and his grandfather can barely walk. But they all live together as one family. That's totally normal here (Hong Kong).

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying it's a bit sad how we're so quick to put old people in homes in Ireland, especially when they're not that sick.

Graces7 · 04-10-2018 10:13AM

EdgeCase wrote: »

I think though to get back to the original topic. Every facility in the HSE should be evaluated from the point of view of a secret shopper.

Having facilities as poor as what’s being described in St Finbars is unacceptable. There’s money. There are staff. There’s public and political support for doing this right. What’s missing is the organisational ability to implement services.

Basically this is what HIQA does, They arrive without warning. In depth assessment. Detaillled report of faults and a set time given to set things right. If not,. they have the power to close the place

Have a look at some of the reports. All online

https://www.hiqa.ie/reports-and-publications/inspection-reports

EdgeCase · 04-10-2018 10:24AM

That's what they do but they're clearly not having enough impact. It's a system that's unwilling to change.

EdgeCase · 04-10-2018 10:29AM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've lived in 6 Asian countries and I can tell you it's normal to have a very sick grandmother or grandfather living with their family.

We can tell ourselves whatever we want to make ourselves feel better, but the reality is Asian families, in general, take care of their old people, and don't put them in homes.

For example, the guy sitting beside me right now, his grandmother wears a nappy and can't walk, and his grandfather can barely walk. But they all live together as one family. That's totally normal here (Hong Kong).

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying it's a bit sad how we're so quick to put old people in homes in Ireland, especially when they're not that sick.

To be honest I don't think we're quick to put people into homes.

My grandfather was looked after at home by my grandmother with support from my uncles and mom.

My great grandmother and great grandfather were looked after at home. My dad's parents were both looked after at home until it got to the stage where one of them needed 24/7 nursing care and even then it was only as an absolute last resort.

My other grandmother was at home other than for 3 weeks when she was in the very final stages of cancer and needed hospice care.

My great aunt is in her 80s and has no immediate family and it's been made clear to her on many, many occasions that's she's very welcome to come live with us if she needs to.

Actually, thinking about it, the vast majority of the old people I know lived at home for as long as possible.

Wibbs · 04-10-2018 10:33AM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

We can tell ourselves whatever we want to make ourselves feel better, but the reality is Asian families, in general, take care of their old people, and don't put them in homes.

I agree that too many people end up in homes and too many Irish families have gone the way of much of the West when it comes to pushing otherwise fairly healthy old people into homes, or leaving them in hospital taking up beds when they could be at home with minimum enough care and the district nurse dropping by to keep on top of things. In my childhood I had two grandparents living with us. One had some issues, but these were manageable and the end came within weeks. The other was as fit as a butcher's dog, until he keeled over one day, gone in seconds. I grew up with that, as many of my generation did.

However...

For example, the guy sitting beside me right now, his grandmother wears a nappy and can't walk, and his grandfather can barely walk. But they all live together as one family. That's totally normal here (Hong Kong).

And by the sounds of things both have their mental faculties intact and don't require 24 hour specialised care. As I pointed out that's a very different scenario. Try dealing with a paralysed stroke victim for years, or someone completely disabled by something like arthritis, or someone suffering with profound and progressive dementia that towards the end, an end that could last for years. Try dealing with that in increasingly nuclear non extended families more common today, or worse dealing with that as just one person.

I don't have to "tell myself whatever I want to make me feel better". I did it for over a decade. I know the costs, financial, physical and mental involved. Never mind the aftermath. Get back to me when you have even one year of that kind of experience under your belt.

EdgeCase · 04-10-2018 10:40AM

I'd also point out St Finbarr's the hospital being cited in this thread isn't a retirement home. It's a specialist, long term residential hospital for people with very high dependency nursing and medical requirements.

It's worrying me that a facility of that type isn't absolutely top notch in terms of infrastructure.

04-10-2018 10:44AM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Having worked in the HSE as a management consultant I can tell you that it's an absolutely money pit where nothing runs efficiently and never will. It was set up to fail and it will continue to fail in epic fashion. I now think that throwing money at the problem actually makes it worse. There is no value and it sends the wrong message. I don't ever see a day where a government is brave enough to sort it out. Too many vested interests that will block all reform and accept the status quo - Unions, bloated Management layers, Consultants, bloated Admin layers etc etc.

It needs to be abolished and re-created correctly next time with 1000s of non front line compulsory redundancies. Never happen of course.

I had the misfortune of attending Hollar Street with my wife, who had miscarried. In the waiting room was a young women who was in agony and as far as i could see, was in the process of miscarrying.

The queues were huge and when we were finally seen, the doctor (Who was the only one on duty) had four people stood around her with clipboards. When they asked for my comment (which i doubt was ever recorded) it was "How about we have four Doctors and one person with a clip board and make the whole thing work a lot quicker?".

Wibbs wrote: »

+1000. Having done it myself for ten years, mostly on my own for five of those years and with only decent help in the last two it takes a huge toll on your life. When you're in it you tend to either not notice because you're too involved in other stuff, or you get used to it(or think you do). You only notice when the person dies and the aftermath hits and the realisation that years of your life are gone passed in limbo. My advice? As harsh as this sounds, if you find yourself in the position of primary carer, especially in the case of dementia and it could potentially go on for more than say a year or two; don't do it. If I had a time machine, I wouldn't and my life would have been very different today.

My mother nursed my grandmother for about three years and I am sure she has a large collection of sleeping tablets in her bedside drawer to prevent her children doing the same thing. She is quite open about ending her own life, on her terms and I have no doubt she will do it. She knows the hurt it will cause, but forty years on, she still remembers the pain and struggle she went through nursing someone with severe dementia. She didn't once regret it, but does not want to put anyone else through what she went through.

OMM 0000 · 04-10-2018 10:54AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree that too many people end up in homes and too many Irish families have gone the way of much of the West when it comes to pushing otherwise fairly healthy old people into homes, or leaving them in hospital taking up beds when they could be at home with minimum enough care and the district nurse dropping by to keep on top of things. In my childhood I had two grandparents living with us. One had some issues, but these were manageable and the end came within weeks. The other was as fit as a butcher's dog, until he keeled over one day, gone in seconds. I grew up with that, as many of my generation did.

However...
And by the sounds of things both have their mental faculties intact and don't require 24 hour specialised care. As I pointed out that's a very different scenario. Try dealing with a paralysed stroke victim for years, or someone completely disabled by something like arthritis, or someone suffering with profound and progressive dementia that towards the end, an end that could last for years. Try dealing with that in increasingly nuclear non extended families more common today, or worse dealing with that as just one person.

I don't have to "tell myself whatever I want to make me feel better". I did it for over a decade. I know the costs, financial, physical and mental involved. Never mind the aftermath. Get back to me when you have even one year of that kind of experience under your belt.

I'm not going to argue with you. You are wrong on this topic. I can sense you won't give an inch so I'll leave it here.

Paddy Cow · 04-10-2018 11:07AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'm just back from visiting a dying relative in Holland and I cannot believe the disparity between that article and what I saw over there.

The Hospice she's in had 7 rooms, I was greeted at the door and asked for coffee, and it was more a quasi-hotel than anything else.
Staffed by volunteers, part-funded by the state and charity driven the rest.
And that apparently is the norm.
Providing dignity for your final days is a driving theme there and people are active with their fund-raising efforts to provide it, where the state cannot.

Such a difference. We need to stop with the Trocaire/Concern crap and fund-raise for those who need it at home instead.

A hospice is very different to a hospital. My mother was in the Hospice in Galway and like you say, it was more like a friendly hotel. We were even allowed to bring her dog in to visit her! The staff were lovely and would try to accommodate us staying over to keep her company.

Paddy Cow · 04-10-2018 11:08AM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm not going to argue with you. You are wrong on this topic. I can sense you won't give an inch so I'll leave it here.

So the guy with ten years experience as a carer is wrong and the guy with anecdotal evidence is right? :rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09 · 04-10-2018 11:16AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

So will the report be used as nothing more than wallpaper for the place or will management actually lose their jobs for failure to run the place properly?

That’s harsh. We don’t know whether the budget is being spent efficiently or not. The money required for elderly care is a much bigger problem than anyone wants to face.

There needs to be a huge rebalancing of resources to make sure old people are taken care of with dignity. There also needs to be a rebalancing of understanding that young people pay the tax for old people’s care. And young people deserve a bit of bloody credit for the burden they inherited.

Old people fad their fun and wrecked the environment and the economy. Now they need young people to clean up the environment, fix the economy and find money for the old folks care while they can’t afford basic things like houses or to start a family for themselves.

I’ve no problem paying for old folks care because it’s the right thing to do. But I’d like a bit of acknowledgment that this duty of care will be carried by the young people.

Wibbs · 04-10-2018 11:19AM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm not going to argue with you. You are wrong on this topic. I can sense you won't give an inch so I'll leave it here.

How the hell am I "wrong"? I clearly stated that I agree we put too many people into homes. I would add that there is an increasingly profit driven industrialisation of the elderly and massive profits are made on it and those profits are driving this cultural change. The cost of care homes even for otherwise relatively independent older people is a bloody scandal.

I also stated that there is a big difference between someone living in the family who happens to be old and someone who needs constant care(of any age really). And you lumping the two together with zero personal experience of the difference and the human costs involved in the latter. But even though I actually fcuking lived through it apparently I'm wrong?

wexie · 04-10-2018 11:21AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That’s harsh. We don’t know whether the budget is being spent efficiently or not. The money required for elderly care is a much bigger problem than anyone wants to face.

There needs to be a huge rebalancing of resources to make sure old people are taken care of with dignity. There also needs to be a rebalancing of understanding that young people pay the tax for old people’s care. And young people deserve a bit of bloody credit for the burden they inherited.

While I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you straightaway I think if we can believe the many voices and experiences coming out of the HSE then we could do an awful lot better with the money there already is.

I wouldn't say it's only a political/management problem but they're not making things much better by dogged insistence on sticking to polices and procedures that the staff on the floor is telling them simply don't work/are inefficient/wasteful

Graces7 · 04-10-2018 11:30AM

[QUOTE=Wibbs;108255178]I agree that too many people end up in homes and too many Irish families have gone the way of much of the West when it comes to pushing otherwise fairly healthy old people into homes, or leaving them in hospital taking up beds when they could be at home with minimum enough care and the district nurse dropping by to keep on top of things. In my childhood I had two grandparents living with us. One had some issues, but these were manageable and the end came within weeks. The other was as fit as a butcher's dog, until he keeled over one day, gone in seconds. I grew up with that, as many of my generation did.

A few years ago I was in an acute surgical ward for emergency surgery after a fall.

There were 6 beds. I and a man who had had his appendx out were the only surgical cases.

The other 4 beds were old folk needing care but not surgery. and waiting lists for non emergency surgery are long.

Wibbs · 04-10-2018 11:38AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That’s harsh. We don’t know whether the budget is being spent efficiently or not. The money required for elderly care is a much bigger problem than anyone wants to face.

There needs to be a huge rebalancing of resources to make sure old people are taken care of with dignity. There also needs to be a rebalancing of understanding that young people pay the tax for old people’s care. And young people deserve a bit of bloody credit for the burden they inherited.

Old people fad their fun and wrecked the environment and the economy. Now they need young people to clean up the environment, fix the economy and find money for the old folks care while they can’t afford basic things like houses or to start a family for themselves.

I’ve no problem paying for old folks care because it’s the right thing to do. But I’d like a bit of acknowledgment that this duty of care will be carried by the young people.

This is in many ways what the economics behind the care of the elderly wants us to believe. The care home and ancillary industry make huge profits. Turkey's aren't gonna vote for Christmas and suggest more families look after even healthy older family members. They want to push the American model that older family members go into retirement homes as an expectation. A couple of generations ago American families looked after their elderly, but now the general expectation is they'll feck off to Florida to supervised housing or end up in homes a la Grandpa Simpson. Again which generates more cash?

Secondly the grind and costs of modern consumerism necessitate more people working more hours within a family, which means fewer hours to be an "old style" family unit, which also adds more cash flow at the other end of life with childcare.

As for "wrecking the environment"? How many of our grandparents and great grandparents were going through expensive consumer items on an annual basis? How many were buying a new car every three years? How many were throwing clothes out after year's wear? How many under 40 even know how to darn a sock? Previous generations consumed far less and filled far fewer landfills than today's. Hell, they even ate less and ate more locally sourced foods with it. They certainly weren't eating strawberries in January flown in from Israel. It is beyond a nonsense to seriously believe that the average adult in say 1960 was more harmful to the environment than the average adult in 2018. Next time you buy a carton of milk as one does, consider that if you were around in 1960 you'd have bought it in a bottle, one that would have been returned and reused, rather than go into landfill or packed off for "recycling" somewhere else.

"Had their fun"? Again, how many of our grandparents and great grandparents were having biannual continental holidays? How many went to college? How many had the concept of "leisure time" we have today? Hell, plenty of average folks on tinder and the like have had more sexual partners by the time they're 30 than Casanova had in his life and far more than their recent ancestors ever had.

"The economy"? While the most recent generation of the Celtic Tiger™ certainly shoulder some blame for being idiots, the average Irish 70 and 80 year olds are most certainly not in this mix. The vast majority lived frugal lives, very few had access to credit the way we do and they quite simply couldn't afford to be profligate. The average Irish 70 and 80 year olds lived through mostly crappy times in Ireland. They helped build the Irish economy. Never mind that a large number of them had to leave the country. About the only large assets they have are their houses they bought and paid for decades ago at prices that were doable for single wage earning families. They didn't drive the housing market to the silly levels they are today(even after the crash). Now you can certainly point to a succession of an older political caste for screwups, but not the average older person today.

EdgeCase · 04-10-2018 11:57AM

My granny was probably one of the most environmentally friendly people I know and she wouldn’t have considered herself radical by doing so. She just hated waste of resources or money.

Things like plastic packaging were mind boggling waste to her. She went to the supermarket with a “trundle” (wheely trolley) on foot and refused all plastic bags. She was doing that in the 80s when everyone else was getting extra bags to go inside the bags.

She thought teabags were the height of laziness.
Clothes lasted years and years and we’re repaired.
She heated the rooms whe was in and even that was probably a bit “excessive” and they wasn’t due to lack of money. She just couldn’t stand the notion of gas being wasted.
Cooked really good meals but always seemed to focus on making economies of scale when she was cooking.
Owned a car but walked or took public transport where possible.

They were a FAR more frugal generation than my parents or mine.

PlaneSpeeking · 04-10-2018 12:06PM

Sounds horrific, my dad has his own room but lots of contact with other residents.

wexie · 04-10-2018 12:13PM

Graces7 wrote: »

The other 4 beds were old folk needing care but not surgery. and waiting lists for non emergency surgery are long.

My wife deals with this on a regular basis, she'll be told there's no money for the home package, to which she'll argue that keeping these people in the hospital is far more expensive and the beds are needed.

But they can't be sent home until suitable homecare has been arranged, but because that comes out of a different budget than the general hospital one that can't be done even though it would represent an overall saving to the HSE AND free up a bed AND allow a person who wants to go home to go home.

Of course then every so often there's enough of a hooha in the media about beds crisis etc. etc. and money magically appears from somewhere and those poor people are expected to be gone today.

It's a constant pattern of fighting crises rather than actually addressing the sources of the crises (underfunding, understaffing and many many faulty policies and procedures)

Graces7 · 04-10-2018 12:20PM

wexie wrote: »

My wife deals with this on a regular basis, she'll be told there's no money for the home package, to which she'll argue that keeping these people in the hospital is far more expensive and the beds are needed.

But they can't be sent home until suitable homecare has been arranged, but because that comes out of a different budget than the general hospital one that can't be done even though it would represent an overall saving to the HSE AND free up a bed AND allow a person who wants to go home to go home.

Of course then every so often there's enough of a hooha in the media about beds crisis etc. etc. and money magically appears from somewhere and those poor people are expected to be gone today.

It's a constant pattern of fighting crises rather than actually addressing the sources of the crises (underfunding, understaffing and many many faulty policies and procedures)

Sums it up well. The need is for what they call "step down care" ie the smaller local hospitals. Was only in an Irish hospital briefly and the time before was an acute medical ward.. same scenario but the patients were fitter. They whisked three off to step down care, ie two small local hospitals within reach

badtoro · 05-10-2018 12:01AM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm not going to argue with you. You are wrong on this topic. I can sense you won't give an inch so I'll leave it here.

How long have you been a carer for an elderly person?

badtoro · 05-10-2018 12:06AM

Unfortunately we have dementia issues on both sides of the family. Cancer also, already had three relatives pass away from that. Currently got one advanced dementia relative, another a good piece down that road, and yet another with other health issues. Just my sister, mother, and myself to care for them.

I've told my partner & family if I start "wandering", I'll quite happily take a long or short walk with the shotgun. I will not end my life as some of the closest people in my life unfortunately will.

up for anything · 05-10-2018 01:06AM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm not going to argue with you. You are wrong on this topic. I can sense you won't give an inch so I'll leave it here.

Yeah, you're dead right. Don't argue with Wibbs, argue with me instead.

It would be interesting to get some background to your belief that old people should be looked after at home regardless of the cost to other people. Have you ever been a carer for an old person?

Minderbinder · 05-10-2018 08:00AM

As far as I understand in Asia a lot of this culture of looking after old people is borne out of financial necessity.

Speaking of China specifically, when a male child gets married he/his family are obliged to provide a new house. For the most part they can’t afford it and his parents end up selling their home and move in with the newly wedded couple in order to fund it.

There is also a huge distrust of daycare and all of that and it makes sense to them for the grandparents to look after the kids.

The old folks, for the most part are not sick at all when they move in with their kids, so it’s a very different situation where they can actually contribute to the household. Due to the lifestyle (imo) in Asia old people tend to be a lot healthier and more active in old age. A lot of them are up at the crack of dawn doing exercises in the park.

There is not much attention given to mental health issues and they don’t stuff themselves with pills every time they’re upset or sick. That’s not to say there aren’t crazy people knocking about, but even they learn to function in society. Of course diseases such as Alzheimer’s is another thing altogether and I haven’t heard much about that. But I do think generally the lifestyle is healthier here and people think more about the long game from an early age.

Do they care more about old people in Asia? I would say they certainly like to make it look like that. But I think it’s mainly a practical solution to a social problem why so many old people live with their children.

I think family as a whole is more important for Asians, but I don’t think that middle aged Chinese people are at home all day looking after their elderly parents who have terrible diseases.

Loves_lorries · 05-10-2018 08:03AM

Wibbs wrote: »

This is in many ways what the economics behind the care of the elderly wants us to believe. The care home and ancillary industry make huge profits. Turkey's aren't gonna vote for Christmas and suggest more families look after even healthy older family members. They want to push the American model that older family members go into retirement homes as an expectation. A couple of generations ago American families looked after their elderly, but now the general expectation is they'll feck off to Florida to supervised housing or end up in homes a la Grandpa Simpson. Again which generates more cash?

Secondly the grind and costs of modern consumerism necessitate more people working more hours within a family, which means fewer hours to be an "old style" family unit, which also adds more cash flow at the other end of life with childcare.

As for "wrecking the environment"? How many of our grandparents and great grandparents were going through expensive consumer items on an annual basis? How many were buying a new car every three years? How many were throwing clothes out after year's wear? How many under 40 even know how to darn a sock? Previous generations consumed far less and filled far fewer landfills than today's. Hell, they even ate less and ate more locally sourced foods with it. They certainly weren't eating strawberries in January flown in from Israel. It is beyond a nonsense to seriously believe that the average adult in say 1960 was more harmful to the environment than the average adult in 2018. Next time you buy a carton of milk as one does, consider that if you were around in 1960 you'd have bought it in a bottle, one that would have been returned and reused, rather than go into landfill or packed off for "recycling" somewhere else.

"Had their fun"? Again, how many of our grandparents and great grandparents were having biannual continental holidays? How many went to college? How many had the concept of "leisure time" we have today? Hell, plenty of average folks on tinder and the like have had more sexual partners by the time they're 30 than Casanova had in his life and far more than their recent ancestors ever had.

"The economy"? While the most recent generation of the Celtic Tiger™ certainly shoulder some blame for being idiots, the average Irish 70 and 80 year olds are most certainly not in this mix. The vast majority lived frugal lives, very few had access to credit the way we do and they quite simply couldn't afford to be profligate. The average Irish 70 and 80 year olds lived through mostly crappy times in Ireland. They helped build the Irish economy. Never mind that a large number of them had to leave the country. About the only large assets they have are their houses they bought and paid for decades ago at prices that were doable for single wage earning families. They didn't drive the housing market to the silly levels they are today(even after the crash). Now you can certainly point to a succession of an older political caste for screwups, but not the average older person today.

Seventy year olds are a lot more to blame for the way the country is than the under forties and have seen the most wealth increase, never mind the fact that this is a golden age for old folks.

PlaneSpeeking · 05-10-2018 08:43AM

Loves_lorries wrote: »

Seventy year olds are a lot more to blame for the way the country is than the under forties and have seen the most wealth increase, never mind the fact that this is a golden age for old folks.

Yeah, tell that to my dad who has days when he forgets my mother has died and has to grieve her loss again and again.

I've no idea how old you are or what your beef is with the elderly but Jesus it's painful to read.

OldRio · 05-10-2018 08:46AM

Loves_lorries wrote: »

Seventy year olds are a lot more to blame for the way the country is than the under forties and have seen the most wealth increase, never mind the fact that this is a golden age for old folks.

A Golden Age? You did read the OP did you not? Or is this sarcasm?

PlaneSpeeking · 05-10-2018 08:48AM

OldRio wrote: »

A Golden Age? You did read the OP did you not? Or is this sarcasm?

If it is, it's not very good sarcasm.

Wibbs · 05-10-2018 08:59AM

Loves_lorries wrote: »

Seventy year olds are a lot more to blame for the way the country is than the under forties and have seen the most wealth increase, never mind the fact that this is a golden age for old folks.

A seventy year old today was born in the late 40's in an Ireland that was dirt poor, grew up in a time where emigration was a big thing, came of age in the late 60's which from what I gather were pretty good times. Then they lived through and raised families in the 70's and 80's, two decades of pretty bloody tight times financially, where Ireland was one of the poorest countries in the EU, with some of the highest unemployment and poverty, lowest growth and scary levels of our young people having to leave. Check out the thread hereabouts with old farts getting nostalgic about the 70/80's and in among the telly ads and toys you'll read of people without phones in their house in cities the 80's.

It's hard for say a 25 year old today to understand how different that Ireland was, and not just financially. Hell, I was a kid in the late 70's and I find it hard to fathom how bad it was(and I was very lucky as far as my family went). The "bust" of the late noughties was a bloody party by comparison.

The "boom" as far as generations go was far more driven by mine; the 50 year olds of today. Not too many of those 70 year olds today were getting into negative equality buying apartments in Spain in the late 90's swanning around in Mercs on tick when they were in their 50's. If you want to "blame" anyone, blame my generation, not the ones who raised us.

Oh and trust me, the current generations will make similar mistakes. Personal credit debt is nearly as high as it was in the boom.

up for anything · 05-10-2018 10:41AM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Yeah, tell that to my dad who has days when he forgets my mother has died and has to grieve her loss again and again.

I've no idea how old you are or what your beef is with the elderly but Jesus it's painful to read.

Don't be fretting about Loves_lorries wrote. They obviously read a meme on Instagram and have taken it for real. Those pesky kids should be rounded up and taught a few manners. In my day.....

I'm sorry about your father. That is so sad. It's really difficult, isn't it? My father adored my mother but there are times when he gets a bit manic and he forgets all that. The last time was when the Pope was coming here in the summer and he kept on about the pope coming down to his town to marry him and his first girlfriend who he was bringing over from Brazil. It was equally funny and upsetting.

Poor old folks

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