NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Johnboy1951 · 03-10-2018 02:19PM

Pique wrote: »

Oh FFS. This is going to unravel, isn't it.

Either that or it will go ahead and let the questions be answered afterwards - as is the 'Irish way' apparently.

KOR101 · 03-10-2018 03:49PM

The alternative is to go back to the drawing board and have a tender that doesn't scare off the likes of EIR, SIRO, SSE and John Laing. But that just adds years to the wait, and more or less the same subcontractors were going to be doing the work anyway no matter who won the tender.

KOR101 · 03-10-2018 03:55PM

Leo yesterday in the Dail.

I am confident that the process has been robust. The Deputy is correct to draw attention to this. It is important we get this right because it is an enormous investment that will run for 25 to 30 years. There is the expression, act in haste and repent at leisure. We need to ensure this process is robust. We are confident it is. It is new and unprecedented. That is what makes it different from other contracts. It has not been done before, even by other countries. That in itself brings about an inherent risk. That is not a good enough reason, however, not to do it.

The remaining bidder in the national broadband plan put in its final tender to the Department on Tuesday, 19 September. Over the coming weeks, the Department’s procurement team will evaluate the submission. The Minister looks forward to receiving the output from that particular evaluation. As I mentioned, it is unique in terms of its level of ambition and vision. The focus is to ensure that a future-proofed technical solution will allow this and future generations to participate fully in digital society.

9726_9726 · 03-10-2018 04:01PM

KOR101 wrote: »

The communications minister said yesterday that he attended a meeting with David McCourt

Uh oh!

tsue921i8wljb3 · 03-10-2018 05:22PM

This seems slightly out of left field.

https://twitter.com/peterodwyer1/status/1047138972844085251

KOR101 · 03-10-2018 06:13PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

This seems slightly out of left field.

https://twitter.com/peterodwyer1/status/1047138972844085251

I did wonder about that, but just assumed they gave up on the ESB because of their stonewalling.

The Govt is really breaking their back to make this happen.

KOR101 · 03-10-2018 06:24PM

And to think they only added all the names of the sub-contractors to make it seem more like a consortium and more like the original ENet one. Just a error of judgement to announce Actavo. They could have been used later with no announcement.

“Here We Are Again”

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/10/03/here-we-are-again/

tsue921i8wljb3 · 03-10-2018 06:30PM

KOR101 wrote: »

And to think they only added all the names of the sub-contractors to make it seem more like a consortium and more like the original ENet one. Just a error of judgement to announce Actavo. They could have been used later with no announcement.

“Here We Are Again”

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/10/03/here-we-are-again/

Terrible misjudgment on their part if that is the case. They should have known the Pavlovian response that the mere mention of DOB elicits in some people.

fritzelly · 03-10-2018 07:00PM

Reasons for everyone else dropping out start coming out when the minister is in cahoots with one of the bidders and gets found out.

KOR101 · 03-10-2018 07:12PM

https://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=67589&sid=3081cca8617efbb7dda10f95992b6269

ED E · 03-10-2018 07:42PM

Pique wrote: »

Oh FFS. This is going to unravel, isn't it.

It should. Measure twice, cut once.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 03-10-2018 07:59PM

fritzelly wrote: »

Reasons for everyone else dropping out start coming out when the minister is in cahoots with one of the bidders and gets found out.

The Minister also met with the new owners of eir shortly after their takeover. I think it's unfair to say he is in cahoots with any bidder.

9726_9726 · 03-10-2018 08:04PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

The Minister also met with the new owners of eir shortly after their takeover. I think it's unfair to say he is in cahoots with any bidder.

You have to wonder what his relationship with Enet & Co is, following the shady renewal of both MAN phases until 2030 under the stroke of the Ministerial pen. This is all very very shady looking.

When does the tender get examined by the EU? Presumably following "award".

tsue921i8wljb3 · 03-10-2018 08:16PM

KOR101 wrote: »

https://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=67589&sid=3081cca8617efbb7dda10f95992b6269

I guess David McCourt was accurate with his "a couple of billion in subsidies" comment.

https://www.capacitymedia.com/articles/3815176/exclusive-irelands-11bn-national-wholesale-network-to-start-building-in-september

9726_9726 wrote: »

You have to wonder what his relationship with Enet & Co is, following the shady renewal of both MAN phases until 2030 under the stroke of the Ministerial pen. This is all very very shady looking.

When does the tender get examined by the EU? Presumably following "award".

I don't know what the examination procedure is.

Ultimanemo · 03-10-2018 08:21PM

ED E wrote: »

It should. Measure twice, cut once.

I bet you have decent broadband

ED E · 03-10-2018 08:39PM

I've seen both sides of the coin.

This is nothing to do with me though. We can continue a trainwreck project and end up like Australia's NBN/Ireland NBS and pay for a collapsed mess for decades or we can start again with a real budget and plan and do it right. Once.

Dennis is like a poster on the Apple sub - "Need a new Iphone XS, budget is €40, help".

Ultimanemo · 03-10-2018 08:41PM

ED E wrote: »

I've seen both sides of the coin.

This is nothing to do with me though. We can continue a trainwreck project and end up like Australia's NBN/Ireland NBS and pay for a collapsed mess for decades or we can start again with a real budget and plan and do it right. Once.

Dennis is like a poster on the Apple sub - "Need a new Iphone XS, budget is €40, help".

What is the speed of your broadband NOW ?.

rodge123 · 03-10-2018 09:11PM

ED E wrote: »

I've seen both sides of the coin.

This is nothing to do with me though. We can continue a trainwreck project and end up like Australia's NBN/Ireland NBS and pay for a collapsed mess for decades or we can start again with a real budget and plan and do it right. Once.

Dennis is like a poster on the Apple sub - "Need a new Iphone XS, budget is €40, help".

Well if Enets statements on their site about their submitted tender is to be believed then we will have a different solution to Australia. They are saying fibre to every house, unlike Australia which I believe is a pick a mix of techs.

Denis O’Brien can come and take a dump on my doorstep if he likes, as long as I get future proffed reliable solution to my home...a lot of people in intervention areas may think the same.

KOR101 · 03-10-2018 09:14PM

ED E wrote: »

This is nothing to do with me though. We can continue a trainwreck project and end up like Australia's NBN/Ireland NBS and pay for a collapsed mess for decades or we can start again with a real budget and plan and do it right. Once.

Yeah. The bottom line for why all those companies withdrew is money.

fritzelly · 03-10-2018 09:16PM

rodge123 wrote: »

Well if Enets statements on their site about their submitted tender is to be believed then we will have a different solution to Australia. They are saying fibre to every house, unlike Australia which I believe is a pick a mix of techs.

Denis O’Brien can come and take a dump on my doorstep if he likes, as long as I get future proffed reliable solution to my home...a lot of people in intervention areas may think the same.

They have already talked about wireless solutions as part of the NBP so that blows the fibre to every home out of the water, would be too insanely expensive to bring fibre to every home because someone built an home miles from anyone else

ED E · 03-10-2018 09:24PM

Their proposal is like the HSEs budget, fictional.

Either they cut corners (Wireless, traditional cellular network fill in, femto cells etc) or they run out of money 1/3 way through and come asking for more to finish. Then Govt has to decide between a new cancer ward for children and better broadband for 300k homes.

Ultimanemo · 03-10-2018 09:30PM

ED E wrote: »

Their proposal is like the HSEs budget, fictional.

Then Govt has to decide between a new cancer ward for children and better broadband for 300k homes.

The government can also decide between new bus lanes in Dublin and a new cancer ward for children

ED E · 03-10-2018 09:34PM

Ahh BC is dead, NBRU made sure of that (the cnuts). Maybe ALTO will do the same for the NBP.

KOR101 · 03-10-2018 10:00PM

Digging away.....

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2018-10-02a.1286&s=national+broadband+plan#g1294.q

9726_9726 · 03-10-2018 10:07PM

If we had a euro for every time someone has lamented the giving away of the Telecom Eireann network on this site, we could pay for the bloody thing. And now it is about to happen again. I am just not cool with that.

And yes, I am already sorted for broadband, so it IS easy for me to say it. But up to €2.5bn of my money, your money and our childrens' money, to give away a network to vulture funds AGAIN? I am so not cool with that and make no apologies for my opinion.

KOR101 · 03-10-2018 10:12PM

https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2018-10-02a.5&s=national+broadband+plan#g58

Denis Naughten

I understand that procurement documentation, which was issued to all bidders in 2016, sets out a mechanism for the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment to assess and approve or reject any changes in the membership of the bidders. It is appropriate for such a mechanism to be put in place for a procurement process of this scale and duration. I have been advised that the bidder submitted a request for approval of an alteration in the bidder membership before the procurement process entered its final stage and that the Department assessed this request in accordance with the criteria, as set out in the procurement documentation and procurement rules. I understand the change in the bidder membership was approved following this assessment. I have also been advised by the Department that the bidder for the national broadband plan procurement process is led by Granahan McCourt and that the bidder has nominated a number of key subcontractors, including Enet, Nokia, Actavo, the Kelly Group and the KN Group to assist with the actual delivery and physical roll-out of the national broadband plan.

Timmy Dooley

I do not want to pour cold water on the desire of the Minister to roll out this project. I share his desire to see that happen. However, I have serious reservations and concerns about a process that goes on for such a long time and the stated intention of which - to roll-out the service - has been delayed so many times, yet at the end of the process a venture capital company that is accustomed to taking high risks for high reward and which will suffer no real reputational loss if it does not work is the sole bidder. My real concern is that the companies I have mentioned - ESB, Vodafone, Eir, SSE and John Laing plc - have departed the scene because they did not see a value proposition for them. If that does not send a signal to the Minister and his Department that there is potentially something very wrong here, that leads to more questions. The Minister now has an opportunity to explain to us why he believes we are still on track.

Denis Naughten

Prices were submitted last year at the end of the tendering process but, independent of that, the Department, through its own expertise, had independently costed the project. We had a good idea of the price this would come in at and what the costings would be for materials, labour, roll-out, etc.

Denis Naughten

Will ESB poles be used? I am sure that not only ESB poles but also other ESB infrastructure, the metropolitan area networks across the country and other State-owned infrastructure will be used. We are looking at potentially up to 100% fibre, which will not be the case. We do not know how much less than that it will be. This is part of the ongoing work and engagement that has been taking place between the bidder and the Department.

Johnboy1951 · 03-10-2018 10:19PM

potentially up to 100% fibre

Ah yes ...... that phrase yet again ...... we have been hammered with 'up to' in relation to broadband services for many years, and from experience it has been very short of 100% of the potential.

So potentially it could be 10% ........

fritzelly · 03-10-2018 10:31PM

Naughten saying the procurement process is unusual, meets up with some US investment company in New York, is pressing ahead with giving them the tender - a consortium that is now made up of a totally different spearheaded consortium with "sub-contractors" (I don't class an hardware provider (Nokia) as a sub contractor???)
I just see this as having billions poured in, nothing really done and sold off when they can make money advertising it as a commercial enterprise to the highest bidder. Kinda like eir

And all the while Naughten saying I don't really know, it's just what people are telling me!

SkepticQuark · 03-10-2018 11:15PM

TBF to everyone we knew McCourt was involved anyway right, we knew enet has backing from the state to a certain degree. Seems odd we are only now thinking about this when they've been involved since day 1. Realistically the only major, major talking points are SSE, the fact enet is not the "main" company in the bid and Denis O Brien magically appearing out of thin air, correct me if I'm wrong on that.

And the politicians going on about Eir, ESB etc. Siro left *after* Eir stuck their stick in the bicycle wheel and snatched up 300,000 all for a few tens of millions in potential "fines" if they don't deliver. Eir then go and dump it later because why bother with the rural process when they can just go back to urban having ensured the NBP is too messy for Siro to attempt.

It's either this or you **** the EU state aid rules and institute a fully state-owned build possibly done by ESB Networks seeing as we have majority ownership over them. There's no magical other bidder waiting in the wings here. What private group is going to agree to build something they'll never actually control either?

I am trying to keep up with this but it's honestly such a ****show and this should have been in full swing already, in fact, we should have been ideally halfway done by now and here we are with this state of a plan. This is actually for me at least very high on voting priorities so they can guarantee a low preference vote if they actually **** it all up and tell us we'll wait another 6 years just so we start from square one.

oscarBravo · 03-10-2018 11:22PM

fritzelly wrote: »

They have already talked about wireless solutions as part of the NBP so that blows the fibre to every home out of the water, would be too insanely expensive to bring fibre to every home because someone built an home miles from anyone else

How many homes in Ireland are "miles from anyone else"? I don't have numbers, but I'd imagine it's very low single digit percentages, and almost none of the tiny handful I can think of have been built recently.

And - I'm blue in the face saying it - it would be cheaper to run fibre to any of that tiny handful that to try to build a wireless network to service them.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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