BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

tommythecat · 02-10-2018 9:45am

Pseudorandom wrote: »

The problem is always going to be that anyone who looks at the BusConnects plan is going to look at the buses they already take, if that bus is reduced in frequency or now requires a change then obviously to them the plan is a failure and a reduction in service.

The messaging about BusConnects has been pretty poor (not helped at all by the unions unfortunately). I've gotten at least two letters in the door, one from PBP (save our buses!) and another presumably from the NBRU both of which talk a fair bit of nonsense about the changes. I'm in D6W near the 9 route, both letters claim the 9 is gone or being replaced with the F1 only. Instead the 54A and the 9 have been consolidated into the F1/2/3.

I do think that it would make sense to have some of the 4 A routes swing down Kenilworth Rd and through Terenure instead of having all 4 go through Rathgar though. Harold's Cross Road seems particularly badly served.

That’s my biggest gripe. Harold’s cross road loses out significantly. 49 gone so only the 16 remains albeit on a better route that doesn’t turn at Leonard’s corner and instead follows the 49 route.

cgcsb · 02-10-2018 10:23am

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I've spent some time on the Belfast Glider, and it works in Belfast because it's not laid out (esp the city centre) in the medieval way Dublin is, it's very blocky, and the routes chosen were for this reason.

It would not work in Dublin, it would be a disaster EXCEPT maybe along mostly str8 stretches like the N11 possibly.

They are very good at ticket checking on it, I got checked twice in one day last time. They also have something we should have here for the bus at major stops: validators at the actual bus stop. Think how fast loading time would improve if you had a flat fare with stop only validation.

Dublin is a lot older than Belfast and different districts of the City were laid out in completely different eras. The Bendy bus concept can work in Dublin in the same way that the much longer bodied luas trams can work, i.e. a minimumisation of turns.

Belfast also has one thing that is politically difficult in Dublin and that is widespread traffic enforcement cameras that issue fines automatically. In the south people would actually barefaced argue that they shouldn't be punished for breaking the rules of the road, and it'd be politicised. Different culture and all.

cgcsb · 02-10-2018 10:25am

Qrt wrote: »

The O route really would be of incredible benefit, particularly if you happen to get a D bus or a Luas and work in the Harcourt St. area. It honestly can't come any sooner.

This is my favourite part of bus connects, the other orbitals are also great, getting from most the north side to the airport is basically a taxi job at present, or you face getting a bus all the way to O'Connell St only to change there and go back on yourself. Whereas one quick change locally will have you at the terminal in a jiffy under busconnects.

CatInABox · 02-10-2018 10:38am

cgcsb wrote: »

In the south people would actually barefaced argue that they shouldn't be punished for breaking the rules of the road, and it'd be politicised. Different culture and all.

It's due to be legislated on eventually. They've even gone through a red light camera trial at the lights at Blackhall Place, seems they thought that it was successful.

cgcsb · 02-10-2018 10:47am

CatInABox wrote: »

It's due to be legislated on eventually. They've even gone through a red light camera trial at the lights at Blackhall Place, seems they thought that it was successful.

As far as I'm aware, the blackhall place camera is still working, but there are no fines being issued. A bit like when we had cityswift traffic light priority and an early realtime display at Parkgate St in the 1990s/2000s. The traffic light priority was switched off and the realtime removed because enough motorists moaned to TDs and funding was quietly pulled.

Qrt · 02-10-2018 11:27am

cgcsb wrote: »

A bit like when we had cityswift traffic light priority and an early realtime display at Parkgate St in the 1990s/2000s. The traffic light priority was switched off and the realtime removed because enough motorists moaned to TDs and funding was quietly pulled.

do you know anything more about this?

dashcamdanny · 02-10-2018 11:31am

marno21 wrote: »

The Irish Times don't seem to understand how transport planning works if they think that €3m for a redesign of a bus system in a city of Dublin's size is "exorbitant"

Also, Imelda Munster needs to go back to basics based on that article. She clearly doesn't understand what's involved in planning of transport systems and networks based on the quotes there. There are no magicians waiting around the place willing to volunteer solutions for ineffective transport systems.

A clear point was made by the article I think. There is a complete lack of expertise within the NTA to get certain things done without the need to outsource practically every part of BC..

Podge_irl · 02-10-2018 11:33am

dashcamdanny wrote: »

A clear point was made by the article I think. There is a complete lack of expertise within the NTA to get certain things done without the need to outsource practically every part of BC..

And if the expertise was in-house what exactly should these people be tasked with afterwards?

Qrt · 02-10-2018 11:37am

dashcamdanny wrote: »

A clear point was made by the article I think. There is a complete lack of expertise within the NTA to get certain things done without the need to outsource practically every part of BC..

Podge_irl wrote: »

And if the expertise was in-house what exactly should these people be tasked with afterwards?

There's be uproar about "civil servants" or "consultants" (delete as appropriate) twiddling their thumbs after these projects finish (if they ever begin). There are a very large number of transport plans in the pipeline now, that's whatche get after a lost decade or so...

CatInABox · 02-10-2018 11:51am

cgcsb wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, the blackhall place camera is still working, but there are no fines being issued.

Yeah, they had it running only as a trial, as there's no legal basis for it. It needs the legislation to go through the process before it can be "reactivated".

cgcsb · 02-10-2018 11:52am

Qrt wrote: »

do you know anything more about this?

Re: cityswift I'm old enough to remember it happening. Regarding the current empass regrding bus lane enforcement is only what I know through hear say. Basically it's acknowledged that cars will use bus lanes for significant stretches to queue to turn left and that deliveries will be made at illegal hours and there is no will politically to prosecute offenders and of course policing in this country is 100% political, in the few areas that it exists at all.

bk · 02-10-2018 12:44pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

A clear point was made by the article I think. There is a complete lack of expertise within the NTA to get certain things done without the need to outsource practically every part of BC..

Literally one of the stupidest things I've ever read in an article.

How many times have we done major bus network redesigns? There was just the QBC network in the 90's and Network Direct during the recession, that is it so far.

Imagine how idiotic and expensive it would be to have a staff of network planners just sitting around doing nothing for decades between redesigns!

Instead it makes far more sense to bring in a team of internationally renowned experts in this field, who literally work on this subject every day for years in different cities around the world.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this, it isn't like any of us would keep an electrician or plumber on staff for the once or twice a year we might need those skills *. You just hire them in to do a job when you need it.

* Admittedly if you had a big factory, you might have an electrician on staff, if there is enough work to keep them busy every day. But imagine the stupidity of having an electrician on staff if he was just needed once a decade :rolleyes:

dashcamdanny · 02-10-2018 3:08pm

bk wrote: »

Literally one of the stupidest things I've ever heard!

How many times have we done major bus network redesigns? There was just the QBC network in the 90's and Network Direct during the recession, that is it so far.

Imagine how idiotic and expensive it would be to have a staff of network planners just sitting around doing nothing for decades between redesigns!

Instead it makes far more sense to bring in a team of internationally renowned experts in this field, who literally work on this subject every day for years in different cities around the world.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this, it isn't like any of us would keep an electrician or plumber on staff for the once or twice a year we might need those skills *. You just hire them in to do a job when you need it.

* Admittedly if you had a big factory, you might have an electrician on staff, if there is enough work to keep them busy every day. But imagine the stupidity of having an electrician on staff if he was just needed once a decade :rolleyes:

Your post is laughable.

You childishly call me stupid by confirming everything in my post.:rolleyes:

There is no expertise withing the NTA to build bus connects without outsourcing practically everything.

john boye · 02-10-2018 3:17pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Your post is laughable.

You childishly call me stupid by confirming everything in my post.:rolleyes:

There is no expertise withing the NTA to build bus connects without outsourcing practically everything.

When DB had to restructure for Network Direct they got Deloitte & Touche to design it. Which was sensible. How is NTA getting Walker in any different?

marno21 · 02-10-2018 3:17pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Your post is laughable.

You childishly call me stupid by confirming everything in my post.:rolleyes:

There is no expertise withing the NTA to build bus connects without outsourcing practically everything.

Yes because there is no point in having transport planners with experience in redesigning bus systems on staff in the NTA when this is a one off exercise and these people don't come cheap.

What are the NTA supposed to do with them when BusConnects is implemented?

AlmightyCushion · 02-10-2018 3:20pm

marno21 wrote: »

Yes because there is no point in having transport planners with experience in redesigning bus systems on staff in the NTA when this is a one off exercise and these people don't come cheap.

What are the NTA supposed to do with them when BusConnects is implemented?

Not to mention by the time the next redesign comes along those planners will be next to useless because they've spent a decade or so sitting around an office doing nothing but twiddling their thumbs.

Podge_irl · 02-10-2018 3:34pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

There is no expertise withing the NTA to build bus connects without outsourcing practically everything.

Why should there be?

bk · 02-10-2018 4:22pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Your post is laughable.

You childishly call me stupid by confirming everything in my post.:rolleyes:

There is no expertise withing the NTA to build bus connects without outsourcing practically everything.

dashcamdanny, I didn't call you "stupid", my comment was aimed at the Irish Times article, it is one of the stupidiest things I've ever read and I stand by that.

Apologies if you thought it was directed at you, I'll edit it to clarify.

But I'll repeat, any major project you bring in outside experts. Doesn't matter if roads, Metro's, etc. those are simply highly specialised skills that aren't normally needed here.

Just like if you were building a house in the morning you would get an architect just for that project, you wouldn't employ them for the rest of your life! It simply wouldn't make any logical sense.

Bringing in consultants with specialised expertise that is only needed from time to time is absolutely normal in both public and private industry. IT Consultants, financal consultants, business process consultants, all very normal and required.

devnull · 02-10-2018 4:29pm

I wonder if the person in the article speaking about Consultants was a fan of Michael Gove and his 'We've had enough of experts' mantra.

Have to say, totally agree with BK on this - it's pretty standard.

.G. · 02-10-2018 6:36pm

I really don't get the NBRU's prominent roll in all this, leafleting homes, going on talkshows and on social media discussing Busconnects. They are a bus drivers union, their sole function is to look out for their members interests so why am I hearing Dermot's voice and seeing his views all the time when I'm not a bus driver. I'm not interested in his views or his unions and I don't see why anybody outside of the bus companies or the NTA should be hearing them either. Busconnects is for the travelling public so why are they out there speaking like the voice of the people? Sure it affects their members but they can deal with that they way the always deal with issues for their members.

MJohnston · 02-10-2018 8:03pm

superg wrote: »

I really don't get the NBRU's prominent roll in all this, leafleting homes, going on talkshows and on social media discussing Busconnects. They are a bus drivers union, their sole function is to look out for their members interests so why am I hearing Dermot's voice and seeing his views all the time when I'm not a bus driver. I'm not interested in his views or his unions and I don't see why anybody outside of the bus companies or the NTA should be hearing them either. Busconnects is for the travelling public so why are they out there speaking like the voice of the people? Sure it affects their members but they can deal with that they way the always deal with issues for their members.

Because now you've heard of him, whereas before you hadn't. Certainly gives the impression of a man with political ambitions. He sure knows how to bend the truth (is the moderation friendly way of putting it) like a politician.

tom1ie · 03-10-2018 8:40am

superg wrote: »

I really don't get the NBRU's prominent roll in all this, leafleting homes, going on talkshows and on social media discussing Busconnects. They are a bus drivers union, their sole function is to look out for their members interests so why am I hearing Dermot's voice and seeing his views all the time when I'm not a bus driver. I'm not interested in his views or his unions and I don't see why anybody outside of the bus companies or the NTA should be hearing them either. Busconnects is for the travelling public so why are they out there speaking like the voice of the people? Sure it affects their members but they can deal with that they way the always deal with issues for their members.

If the nbru and the bus drivers think that privatization of the bus routes will drive down wages, they will grab as much airtime as possible to campaign against that.
I don’t agree with the race to the bottom when it comes to wages. I know private bus drivers are on less and have less “perks” than dB drivers, so either everyone gets the same wages and perks as dB drivers or privatization shouldn’t really be encouraged.
By the way I’m a fan of bc, but I don’t think bus drivers wages should be put on a downward spiral, which inevitably privatization will lead to.
There is enough downward pressure on wages in plenty of areas of employment in this economy, all the while buisness make big profits. We have to reach a happy medium.
Anyway rant over.

MJohnston · 03-10-2018 8:49am

tom1ie wrote: »

If the nbru and the bus drivers think that privatization of the bus routes will drive down wages, they will grab as much airtime as possible to campaign against that.
I don’t agree with the race to the bottom when it comes to wages. I know private bus drivers are on less and have less “perks” than dB drivers, so either everyone gets the same wages and perks as dB drivers or privatization shouldn’t really be encouraged.
By the way I’m a fan of bc, but I don’t think bus drivers wages should be put on a downward spiral, which inevitably privatization will lead to.
There is enough downward pressure on wages in plenty of areas of employment in this economy, all the while buisness make big profits. We have to reach a happy medium.
Anyway rant over.

But there's no part of BusConnects that involves privatization! As others have pointed out, it actually discourages it more than anything!

tom1ie · 03-10-2018 8:55am

MJohnston wrote: »

But there's no part of BusConnects that involves privatization! As others have pointed out, it actually discourages it more than anything!

So are some dB routes not going to a private company called go ahead? Do the drivers in go ahead get paid the same and have the same perks as dB drivers?

G_R · 03-10-2018 9:24am

tom1ie wrote: »

So are some dB routes not going to a private company called go ahead? Do the drivers in go ahead get paid the same and have the same perks as dB drivers?

They are but this is entirely separate to BusConnects (and has already happened).

loyatemu · 03-10-2018 9:29am

as has been mentioned previously, a wholesale change of routes means disruption for the drivers, many of whom are "marked in" on existing routes. This is probably one reason the union is agitating against it.

sharper · 03-10-2018 9:30am

tom1ie wrote: »

So are some dB routes not going to a private company called go ahead? Do the drivers in go ahead get paid the same and have the same perks as dB drivers?

Go Ahead and busconnects are totally separate to each other. Also what happened with Go Ahead isn't privatisation.

About 10% of bus routes, mostly orbitals, were put out to tender and anyone could apply to operate them including Dublin Bus. The routes are "owned" by the NTA. They define the frequency and service levels. Whomever operates the route gets paid a fixed fee from the NTA, the farebox goes back to the NTA and not to the operator.

Privatisation is not on any political agenda and is not happening regardless of what the unions say.

I don't know the exact comparison between pay and conditions between DB and Go Ahead. I suspect if you're long time employee at DB you'll likely have perks you won't find at Go Ahead but if you're a new driver DB is not attractive either.

tom1ie · 03-10-2018 9:56am

sharper wrote: »

Go Ahead and busconnects are totally separate to each other. Also what happened with Go Ahead isn't privatisation.

About 10% of bus routes, mostly orbitals, were put out to tender and anyone could apply to operate them including Dublin Bus. The routes are "owned" by the NTA. They define the frequency and service levels. Whomever operates the route gets paid a fixed fee from the NTA, the farebox goes back to the NTA and not to the operator.

Privatisation is not on any political agenda and is not happening regardless of what the unions say.

I don't know the exact comparison between pay and conditions between DB and Go Ahead. I suspect if you're long time employee at DB you'll likely have perks you won't find at Go Ahead but if you're a new driver DB is not attractive either.

This is a good point, but will the system work like the c.e.r in the energy sector, where private company, (and dB) can go to nta and look for more money/ higher fares, as they are not making ends meet under the current system. If the c.e.r model is anything to go by, the nta agree to said increase for operator. The nta have to find the money for this increase, so do they get it from centeral government or fare increases?
Operators get paid a fixed fee by the nta, so if the operator wants to increase profits, but doesn’t get an increase from nta, will they not just put downward pressure on wages, hence putting pressure on other operators to do likewise with their drivers?
By the way I’m not a bus driver, just looking at this from an objective view. I’m still a bc fan.

sharper · 03-10-2018 10:18am

tom1ie wrote: »

This is a good point, but will the system work like the c.e.r in the energy sector, where private company, (and dB) can go to nta and look for more money/ higher fares, as they are not making ends meet under the current system.

They can ask for more money but they ultimately won't care what the fare is. We've seen many years of fare increases under Dublin Bus even as base input costs like fuel decreased so there's no real perfect solution to the problem.

If you have multiple operators it prevents one from dictating costs across the entire network. This is really what the unions object to because even though the drivers in Go Ahead are in the union it becomes harder for them to threaten the entire network. They can't seem to be able to negotiate outside of constant threats of strikes so it's a downside for them.

ThunbergsAreGo · 03-10-2018 10:20am

MJohnston wrote: »

But there's no part of BusConnects that involves privatization! As others have pointed out, it actually discourages it more than anything!

Not directly, but it does open up a gap in the market for private operators to move into with the loss of the "direct/express buses".

If that's not addressed in the next revision, I suspect we could see continued growth of Swords/Fingal Express-type services

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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