Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

oscarBravo · 28-09-2018 3:57pm

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

If someone has knowledge that other women will be drugged and gang-raped at certain parties, attends those parties and sees the queues for the raping and doesn't warn anyone or ever calls the police are they not somewhat complicit?

At the beginning of a night of the raping, she's mingling with women she knows will be drugged and raped... is that not pretty evil in and of itself? And she kept putting herself in that situation until finally she gets wait for it drugged and raped...

That's called "victim blaming".

Don't do that.

RobertKK · 28-09-2018 4:06pm

batgoat wrote: »

I have a largely American family on mother's side. Uncle would have been through everything from Mccarthyism to Nixon to Bush. He thought checks and balances would protect the US, he doesn't think so anymore.

Also Obama didn't do anything that could be perceived as irreparably damaging nation, in fact he repaired a much tarnished reputation and pulled them out of a massive economic crisis... Bush isn't even comparable at this point, when the president's behaviour is entirely unpredictable and hasn't had a controversy free day that's a hell of a lot more to come back from.

Obama was weak and allowed Hillary and people like Susan Rice to influence him to attack Libya. A war which Obama said turned into a sh1t show.
He was there for the Arab Spring, they supported the sectarian Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt, it doesn't matter they were democratically elected, they were encouraging attacks on Coptic Christians.
Supported God knows who against Assad, and between Iraq and Syria we got the rise of ISIS when Obama was in power.
All this chaos that Obama and people in his regime supported and which led to more chaos, gave us the migrant crisis. A migrant crisis used by Brexiteers to push immigration as a huge problem, pushed by far right people and caused a rise in the far right in Europe.
Obama's presidency was every bit the disaster in foreign affairs, he just talked nicer and his demeanor was better.
But the Obama presidency did bring us chaos.

pixelburp · 28-09-2018 4:09pm

Just on the "Why didn't they report it?" excuse, would those that suggest this extend that to the 300 gymnasts sexually abused by Larry Nassar? It's all well and good affecting some glib sense of rationalism or neutrality, but the reality of sexual abuse is deep and insidious, usually centring around the abuser maintaining a sense of control and power over the victims.

Penn · 28-09-2018 4:10pm

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Did you read the statement in full? What's your gut instinct on that? If someone has knowledge that other women will be drugged and gang-raped at certain parties, attends those parties and sees the queues for the raping and doesn't warn anyone or ever calls the police are they not somewhat complicit?

At the beginning of a night of the raping, she's mingling with women she knows will be drugged and raped... is that not pretty evil in and of itself? And she kept putting herself in that situation until finally she gets wait for it drugged and raped...

The issue is, it may not have been until after it happened to her that she realised the extent to which the women were being drugged and raped. She may have thought the girls in the rooms with guys outside might have been consensual, by not realising what condition the girls were in (eg. maybe she thought they were conscious and cognisant). After all, sexual assault and rape simply wasn't talked about like it is now, and many people simply tended to turn a blind eye.

Until it happened to her, maybe she just didn't think about it. And after that, maybe she, as many other victims do, felt shame about what had happened and blamed herself that she simply didn't want to come forward about it.

"Is that not pretty evil in and of itself?" - No, because you're ascribing things to her for which there isn't evidence for, such as foreknowledge that those assaults would happen, or complicity for same.

Maybe, just maybe, the above is a good enough reason why she should have been allowed to testify and have such questions asked of her, to ascertain when she realised or knew about these events. Guess we might never know now.

Akrasia · 28-09-2018 4:12pm

The republicans are running with the 'who leaked the letter' spin to push their story that Ford is being used by the democrats and that they betrayed Ford's trust, but it has already been confirmed that the letter wasn't actually leaked until after Ford's identity was already confirmed.

The republicans know this but the truth is not something that matters when they have a job to do.

frag420 · 28-09-2018 4:12pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Obama was weak and allowed Hillary and people like Susan Rice to influence him to attack Libya. A war which Obama said turned into a sh1t show.
He was there for the Arab Spring, they supported the sectarian Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt, it doesn't matter they were democratically elected, they were encouraging attacks on Coptic Christians.
Supported God knows who against Assad, and between Iraq and Syria we got the rise of ISIS when Obama was in power.
All this chaos that Obama and people in his regime supported and which led to more chaos, gave us the migrant crisis. A migrant crisis used by Brexiteers to push immigration as a huge problem, pushed by far right people and caused a rise in the far right in Europe.
Obama's presidency was every bit the disaster in foreign affairs, he just talked nicer and his demeanor was better.
But the Obama presidency did bring us chaos.

Yes because the Bush presidency before Obama perfect...he inherited the disaster from Bush!

RobertKK · 28-09-2018 4:15pm

frag420 wrote: »

Yes because the Bush presidency before Obama perfect...he inherited the disaster from Bush!

Remember when Obama laughed at Romney, when Romney said Russia was the problem?
All we got with Obama was worse relations with Russia, and lets not forget the incident in China with Obama and the airplane.

Obama went from laughing at Romney in 2012 to people asking if we were going back to the cold war by the end of his second term.
You cannot blame Bush for that.

Call Me Jimmy · 28-09-2018 4:16pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's called "victim blaming".

Don't do that.

I think it's implausible, the reason is partly because of how immoral I find it to know about drugging and rapes going on in a circle of friends and still hanging out with them (remember, before she herself was a victim) and seeing other girls being sexually assaulted, groped the whole nine yards it seems without ever notifying the police or even breaking contact. You only stop going when you yourself get raped?

The reason I mention the morality of it is because it makes me think, does that make sense? And it just doesn't. There are certain things you can say about the actions of a victim which sound crazy but are the result of their trauma and how people handle things different. But there is a limit to that, and it doesn't apply to the time before she was a victim.

Penn · 28-09-2018 4:18pm

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I think it's implausible, the reason is partly because of how immoral I find it to know about drugging and rapes going on in a circle of friends and still hanging out with them (remember, before she herself was a victim) and seeing other girls being sexually assaulted, groped the whole nine yards it seems without ever notifying the police or even breaking contact. You only stop going when you yourself get raped?

The reason I mention the morality of it is because it makes me think, does that make sense? And it just doesn't. There are certain things you can say about the actions of a victim which sound crazy but are the result of their trauma and how people handle things different. But there is a limit to that, and it doesn't apply to the time before she was a victim.

And as per my post, she may not have realised that was what was happening until after it happened to her.

SimonTemplar · 28-09-2018 4:18pm

Whitehouse now highlighting the 1st of July issue on his calendar.

Dohnjoe · 28-09-2018 4:26pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Obama was weak and allowed Hillary and people like Susan Rice to influence him to attack Libya. A war which Obama said turned into a sh1t show.
He was there for the Arab Spring, they supported the sectarian Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt, it doesn't matter they were democratically elected, they were encouraging attacks on Coptic Christians.
Supported God knows who against Assad, and between Iraq and Syria we got the rise of ISIS when Obama was in power.
All this chaos that Obama and people in his regime supported and which led to more chaos, gave us the migrant crisis. A migrant crisis used by Brexiteers to push immigration as a huge problem, pushed by far right people and caused a rise in the far right in Europe.
Obama's presidency was every bit the disaster in foreign affairs, he just talked nicer and his demeanor was better.
But the Obama presidency did bring us chaos.

Bit of a strange one and a "connect-the-dots" post. Obama and his "regime"? The Republicans supported Libyan action along with most of the intl community inc. no veto from China/Russia so that's weak for a start, it was still considered a mistake with hindsight and acknowledged as such. Syria was a mess, despite this many Republicans were pushing for stronger action, no good option, only "least worst" options available. The ensuing wider conflict and migrant crisis developed in spite of the US gov actions, not because of. (Which some individuals conveniently try to paint it as post-fact)

There's plenty of criticise about any admin, but playing the selective blame game comes across as a bit of a weak attempt to deflect from the current disaster

listermint · 28-09-2018 4:27pm

I think the GOP has dirtied their bib here, Avenatti has the power here to really push the volume of stacked evidence against Kavanagh. So they confirm him. Avenatti comes out with a bulk of evidence then all of those senators look glorious! :cool:

MadYaker · 28-09-2018 4:31pm

frag420 wrote: »

Yes because the Bush presidency before Obama perfect...he inherited the disaster from Bush!

You can’t really blame bush for the decisions that Obama made regarding Syria and Libya. Both countries are basket cases today and he definitely contributed to that situation, including the rise of ISIS and the migrant crisis in Europe which has destabilized our continent significantly. But he did some good stuff too, mostly the Iran deal and the Paris climate accord.

Its looking like Kav is going to get the votes so? I wonder how that will play out in the mid terms, in my opinion neither party has showered themselves in glory here. I think a lot of GOP supporters will see this as pure political manouvering by the dems and it could help mobilize their voters.

Outlaw Pete · 28-09-2018 4:33pm

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

If someone has knowledge that other women will be drugged and gang-raped at certain parties, attends those parties and sees the queues for the raping and doesn't warn anyone or ever calls the police are they not somewhat complicit?

I'd take a shovel of salt with much of what's been said but yes, of course if someone is aware of a crime of this nature taking place, and doesn't report it, they are for sure complicit at some level... assuming their silence hasn't been demanded with threats of violence or similar of course, but I've seen no suggestion of that.

To suggest it's victim blaming to question why someone didn't report girls allegedly being drugged and raped is rather pathetic, but predictable of course, given the political leanings of those who suggest such nonsense.

Call Me Jimmy · 28-09-2018 4:36pm

Penn wrote: »

And as per my post, she may not have realised that was what was happening until after it happened to her.

Fair enough I'm open to there being weird psychological anomalies and ignorance although she at least knew not to drink the spiked punch.

If true then we have many victims and perpetrators of the most heinous crimes and it should come to light very quickly and I'll hold my hands up, I'm amazed FBI background checks did not uncover anything about it.

Captain Obvious · 28-09-2018 4:39pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Just watched C-span for a bit. Grassley, committee chair, pushed through a motion to have the Judiciary Committee vote on Kavanaugh at 1:30 (6:30 here.) Never done before in the committee. Grassley didn't care. 2 Democrats didn't even bother to vote (Harris and Booker), just glared.

Government as bad reality TV. Sad.
So glad I don't live there anymore.

Two potential candidates for future leadership. they were very composed at the hearing.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I think it's implausible, the reason is partly because of how immoral I find it to know about drugging and rapes going on in a circle of friends and still hanging out with them (remember, before she herself was a victim) and seeing other girls being sexually assaulted, groped the whole nine yards it seems without ever notifying the police or even breaking contact. You only stop going when you yourself get raped?

The reason I mention the morality of it is because it makes me think, does that make sense? And it just doesn't. There are certain things you can say about the actions of a victim which sound crazy but are the result of their trauma and how people handle things different. But there is a limit to that, and it doesn't apply to the time before she was a victim.

This line of thought seems to be completely oblivious to how parties happen. Someone invites you to a party you generally don't know who will be there. It's not like this happened at every party she went to. Or that Kavanaugh and the gang were at them all. Or even that they were in the same location or held by the same people.

Igotadose · 28-09-2018 4:46pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Bit of a strange one and a "connect-the-dots" post. Obama and his "regime"? The Republicans supported Libyan action along with most of the intl community inc. no veto from China/Russia so that's weak for a start, it was still considered a mistake with hindsight and acknowledged as such. Syria was a mess, despite this many Republicans were pushing for stronger action, no good option, only "least worst" options available. The ensuing wider conflict and migrant crisis developed in spite of the US gov actions, not because of. (Which some individuals conveniently try to paint it as post-fact)

There's plenty of criticise about any admin, but playing the selective blame game comes across as a bit of a weak attempt to deflect from the current disaster

Lest we forget, it was the GOP in control of the House and Senate for 6 of Obama's 8 years. When he put it to Congress about intervening in Syria, they emphatically said no. As you pointed out, Libya isn't on Obama in the least - should he have intervened on Qaddafi's *behalf*? Ridding the world of Qaddafi is one of the best things to have happened in the last 10 years. Has Libya stabilized? No. Should the US intervene their now to help with stability?

And, unless there are bids out for a few Trump hotels in Tripoli, the current admin isn't going to be interested in Libya.

Christy42 · 28-09-2018 4:50pm

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Penn wrote: »

And as per my post, she may not have realised that was what was happening until after it happened to her.

Fair enough I'm open to there being weird psychological anomalies and ignorance although she at least knew not to drink the spiked punch.

If true then we have many victims and perpetrators of the most heinous crimes and it should come to light very quickly and I'll hold my hands up, I'm amazed FBI background checks did not uncover anything about it.

Why would it come to light quickly?

Did all the issues around all sexual offenders come out quickly? The likes of Bill Cosby etc.? Some of his allegations were nearly 50 years old.

Honestly I feel like you are underestimating the pressure that comes with coming forward about these things and that it rarely brings serious benefit to the victims. Ford being a prime example in recent weeks of what happens if you dare come forward.

Call Me Jimmy · 28-09-2018 4:54pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

This line of thought seems to be completely oblivious to how parties happen. Someone invites you to a party you generally don't know who will be there. It's not like this happened at every party she went to. Or that Kavanaugh and the gang were at them all. Or even that they were in the same location or held by the same people.

She names them and their behavior at parties over two years. She witnessed them doing these things over a two year period. So lets just assume we're talking about the parties they were present at.

" I witnessed Brett Kavanaugh consistently engage in excessive drinking and inappropriate contact of a sexual nature with women during the early 1980s."

"During the years 1981-82, I became aware of efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to 'spike' the 'punch' at house parties I attended with drugs and/or grain alcohol so as to cause girls to lose their inhibitions and their ability to say 'No. This caused me to make an effort to purposely avoid the 'punch' at these parties."

"I witnessed efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to 'target' particular girls so they could be taken advantage of"

" also witnessed efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to cause girls to become inebriated and disoriented so they could then be 'gang raped' in a side room or bedroom"

"I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms at many of these parties waiting for their 'tum' with a girl inside the room. These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanaugh."

"I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms at many of these parties waiting for their 'tum' with a girl inside the room. These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanaugh."

rossie1977 · 28-09-2018 5:04pm

MadYaker wrote: »

You can’t really blame bush for the decisions that Obama made regarding Syria and Libya. Both countries are basket cases today and he definitely contributed to that situation, including the rise of ISIS and the migrant crisis in Europe which has destabilized our continent significantly. But he did some good stuff too, mostly the Iran deal and the Paris climate accord.

Its looking like Kav is going to get the votes so? I wonder how that will play out in the mid terms, in my opinion neither party has showered themselves in glory here. I think a lot of GOP supporters will see this as pure political manouvering by the dems and it could help mobilize their voters.

Arab spring had nothing to do with Obama. If the US and French had stood idely by and done nothing Gaddafi and al-Assad would have slaughtered their fellow countrymen and women by the millions.

The rise of isis happened in 2004 years before Obama was elected

Christy42 · 28-09-2018 5:06pm

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Captain Obvious wrote: »

This line of thought seems to be completely oblivious to how parties happen. Someone invites you to a party you generally don't know who will be there. It's not like this happened at every party she went to. Or that Kavanaugh and the gang were at them all. Or even that they were in the same location or held by the same people.

She names them and their behavior at parties over two years. She witnessed them doing these things over a two year period. So lets just assume we're talking about the parties they were present at.

" I witnessed Brett Kavanaugh consistently engage in excessive drinking and inappropriate contact of a sexual nature with women during the early 1980s."

"During the years 1981-82, I became aware of efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to 'spike' the 'punch' at house parties I attended with drugs and/or grain alcohol so as to cause girls to lose their inhibitions and their ability to say 'No. This caused me to make an effort to purposely avoid the 'punch' at these parties."

"I witnessed efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to 'target' particular girls so they could be taken advantage of"

" also witnessed efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to cause girls to become inebriated and disoriented so they could then be 'gang raped' in a side room or bedroom"

"I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms at many of these parties waiting for their 'tum' with a girl inside the room. These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanaugh."

"I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms at many of these parties waiting for their 'tum' with a girl inside the room. These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanaugh."

OK. You think she should behaved differently at these parties.

Not sure that means Kavanagh should be in the supreme court and get a pass on his actions here.

Captain Obvious · 28-09-2018 5:11pm

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

She names them and their behavior at parties over two years. She witnessed them doing these things over a two year period. So lets just assume we're talking about the parties they were present at.

" I witnessed Brett Kavanaugh consistently engage in excessive drinking and inappropriate contact of a sexual nature with women during the early 1980s."

"During the years 1981-82, I became aware of efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to 'spike' the 'punch' at house parties I attended with drugs and/or grain alcohol so as to cause girls to lose their inhibitions and their ability to say 'No. This caused me to make an effort to purposely avoid the 'punch' at these parties."

"I witnessed efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to 'target' particular girls so they could be taken advantage of"

" also witnessed efforts by Mark Judge, Brett Kavanaugh and others to cause girls to become inebriated and disoriented so they could then be 'gang raped' in a side room or bedroom"

"I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms at many of these parties waiting for their 'tum' with a girl inside the room. These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanaugh."

"I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms at many of these parties waiting for their 'tum' with a girl inside the room. These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanaugh."

But she doesn't say they were at all or even most of the parties she attended. It's just that the ones she saw them at she saw this behaviour. But this could have been a small percentage of the total amount of parties she attended herself throughout college.

Call Me Jimmy · 28-09-2018 5:12pm

Christy42 wrote: »

Why would it come to light quickly?

Did all the issues around all sexual offenders come out quickly? The likes of Bill Cosby etc.? Some of his allegations were nearly 50 years old.

Honestly I feel like you are underestimating the pressure that comes with coming forward about these things and that it rarely brings serious benefit to the victims. Ford being a prime example in recent weeks of what happens if you dare come forward.

The reason I expect it to be quick is because there's national coverage and scrutiny over a set of parties that have many victims and perpetrators and witnesses of gang rapes, sexual assault, drugging. Once one person comes forward it usually causes other people to do so. There has to be someone who seen something or at least can support that claim about spiked punch. If someone else can corroborate that detail my opinion will change completely.

My main point is going off what I read, my brain has to do backflips to try and take it at face value. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems off to me on pure probability. You may be right, maybe everyone involved is just scared into silence. I don't know what happened so she could be telling the truth, just discussing my thinking on it.

Call Me Jimmy · 28-09-2018 5:17pm

Christy42 wrote: »

OK. You think she should behaved differently at these parties.

Not sure that means Kavanagh should be in the supreme court and get a pass on his actions here.

I never said he should! Thought they should have went ahead with the Ford FBI investigation. If anything more comes from the Avenatti claim (or the others) then I hope it's pursued right to the end. If even the spiked punch thing is corroborated I'd rule him out of any court position.

RobertKK · 28-09-2018 5:29pm

I wonder if the Democrats if they get into power any time soon, if they will change the law so it is guilty until proven innocent.

mcmoustache · 28-09-2018 5:32pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I wonder if the Democrats if they get into power any time soon, if they will change the law so it is guilty until proven innocent.

Was there a trial where they asked for that?

Akrasia · 28-09-2018 5:33pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I wonder if the Democrats if they get into power any time soon, if they will change the law so it is guilty until proven innocent.

This isn't a criminal trial, it's a job interview. The burden of proof is way lower here than in a criminal investigation. And even if there was no sexual assault allegations, the fact that he's so blatantly partisan means he is an awful candidate for the supreme court, everything else is just further reasons to not choose him

Leroy42 · 28-09-2018 5:35pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I wonder if the Democrats if they get into power any time soon, if they will change the law so it is guilty until proven innocent.

Isn't that the way they have treated HC for all these years?

Trump ran his whole campaign on that very notion.

Now all of a sudden the GOP are worried about evidence.

Come on. You have got to see how hypocritical you are being.

TomOnBoard · 28-09-2018 5:35pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But she doesn't say they were at all or even most of the parties she attended. It's just that the ones she saw them at she saw this behaviour. But this could have been a small percentage of the total amount of parties she attended herself throughout college.

And possibly only a small percentage of the parties that the Three Sleazy Musketeers attended around that time. God knows how many young girls, barely into adolescence, were damaged for a lifetime by this band of marauders. Animal House and such like were not simply outlandish works of fiction; in some cases they were exemplars for the kind of sleaze that this sad case has highlighted, and in other ways, I'm fairly sure that it was just a reflection of the Chevy Chase lifestyle and Rites of Passage that entitled teenage men, loaded with power and privilege, went through as a matter of course. Hence, what happened in Beach Week, Stays in Beach Week.(Substitute location and time for all manner of occasions and activities that fit the same thinking). These pathetic dweebs went on to privileged careers and lifestyles, oinking their way into the highest echelons of society and the professions, and left the damaged young girls to fend for themselves and try and pick up the pieces, alone and without supports simply because they were too afraid to tell anyone what had happened because they had been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

All this would be of much less moment if it was just "High Society" oinking its way through adolescence into man/womanhood. Most of the great unwashed would probably not give a fig for what happened to these entitled oinks, IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE FACT that everyone's daily lives in the USA will be hugely affected by a disgusting specimen of so-called manhood - who hid behind his 10-year old daughter yesterday and lied his way through a rigged process - becoming one of 9 people whose power will reign over the daily lives of generations of people for decades. Every day, when we watch from afar, we look in horror at what is happening in a place that claims to be in some way the World's Leader in terms of humanity, justice, democracy. And we think, Jeez, that's it! We've hit bottom! But, we're so wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME! It actually does get worse, and worse, and worse.

Desperate times! The "Shining Beacon" is dimming every day. And the trouble is, the attitudes and ever lowering standards of decency and humanity are not confined within that country: the horrible cretinism and selfishness is being exported to our own European shores through similar processes and attitudes.

:eek:

EDIT: A glimmer of respectability introduced into the process by Senator Jeff Flake. Well done, Sir!

batgoat · 28-09-2018 5:36pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I wonder if the Democrats if they get into power any time soon, if they will change the law so it is guilty until proven innocent.

Repeating this question, do you not see any problem with the fact that Kavanaugh categorically lied under oath to paint himself differently? He also actively opposes an investigation...

Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

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