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No wonder millennials can't afford a mortgage

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    #392
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I can't see any political party bring low paid workers into the income tax net. It's unpalatable by the left, totally so.


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    #393
    fatherted1969
    Registered Users Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭fatherted1969


    listermint wrote: »
    fatherted1969 wrote: »
    It's all fairly relative. I got my mortgage in 1995 earning around £60 a day. Mortgage was £189 per month. It wasn't all roses in those days either well not for me anyway

    So your mortgage was 1/10th your salary then, nothing like todays costs.


    My mistake, didn't realise a 1/10th of £1200 gross pay was £189. Car insurance in the 90s was far higher in terms of wages than it is now. First car insurance was £1500 on £3 per hour wages for me. Inflation was through the roof too for a long time in the late 80s early 90s. It wasn't easy for a lot of people in those days


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    #394
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    fatherted1969 wrote: »
    My mistake, didn't realise a 1/10th of £1200 gross pay was £189. Car insurance in the 90s was far higher in terms of wages than it is now. First car insurance was £1500 on £3 per hour wages for me. Inflation was through the roof too for a long time in the late 80s early 90s. It wasn't easy for a lot of people in those days

    Oh im sorry sir, it was 15% of your wages to pay your mortgage. Today it makes up 30-40-50% of wages and more in some cases.

    Also car insurance today is around that price for many many many people.

    Sure Taxi Drivers insurance is 9000 Euro+


    So tell me again whats 'all relative' Its pretty trite to say you had the same experience in 1995 when property quite simply was vastly more affordable. Especially on an average wage.


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    #395
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,264 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    I graduated from college in 1997 and it was extremely difficult in the first couple of years to buy avocados.


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    #396
    Deebles McBeebles
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    I graduated from college in 1997 and it was extremely difficult in the first couple of years to buy avocados.

    I think I remember you from that Trocaire ad.


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    #397
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    listermint wrote: »
    Oh im sorry sir, it was 15% of your wages to pay your mortgage. Today it makes up 30-40-50% of wages and more in some cases............

    Mortgage payments are 30/40/50% of people's gross wages?
    I doubt that's true but the CB rules have tightened up to ensure that shouldn't happen going forward.

    Someone on €50k who borrows €175k would pay back about €750/month over 30 years.

    That's 18% of gross wages on the mortgage, to get that to the 30/40/50% you mention .........well ....... I'm puzzled tbh.
    listermint wrote: »
    .............

    Also car insurance today is around that price for many many many people.

    Sure Taxi Drivers insurance is 9000 Euro+.........

    But you wont' find many many many many people on 3 quid/hour.


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    #398
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Augeo wrote: »
    I can't see any political party bring low paid workers into the income tax net. It's unpalatable by the left, totally so.
    which makes no sense. why would the left want people to not contribute taxes? Unless they're not real left at all


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    #399
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    which makes no sense. why would the left want people to not contribute taxes? Unless they're not real left at all

    "Sinn Féin wants a fair tax system, one in which all people and businesses pay their fair share. We want to scrap the Family Home Tax and Water Charges. We want to remove those on the minimum wage from the USC net. We also want to increase the overall tax take in a fair and progressive manner."

    Well SinnFein want to remove those on the minimum wage from the USC net. Sinn Fein would be fairly left ?


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    #400
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Augeo wrote: »
    "Sinn Féin wants a fair tax system, one in which all people and businesses pay their fair share. We want to scrap the Family Home Tax and Water Charges. We want to remove those on the minimum wage from the USC net. We also want to increase the overall tax take in a fair and progressive manner."

    Well SinnFein want to remove those on the minimum wage from the USC net. Sinn Fein would be fairly left ?
    that's not left wing economics.


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    #401
    Wildly Boaring
    Registered Users Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    I do not envy those who need to live in Dublin.

    Whether they be millenials, gen x, gen y or whomever.

    I'm 36. I've actively avoided working in Dublin since graduating.

    Worked in Munster and Ulster and even longford/offally. Then few years in Midlands UK.

    Down in Munster these days.

    My rent has never been more than 10% of net pay.

    My now wife was a bit worse off for first year or two out of college. Maybe rent at 20% net.

    We saved like hell. I did nixers weekends. We both took harder jobs. I had to turn down couple nice cushy numbers.

    Our first house was bought for cash. It wasn't mad money. It's in Munster but commutable to cork city or even limerick if stuck.

    Its nice but small.

    My point I suppose is I hate paying rent. So much so that I'd work in the feckin arctic circle to avoid it.

    My advice to millennials or the generation after....
    If I were graduating today I would get outta Dublin or cork fast. Apply for jobs where rent is low. Get up the ladder in a smaller firm down the country or out of the country. Save save save save.

    Buy when you can. Buying today in Dublin is like buying in 05 06 07. Supply is ridiculously constrained and wlli improve. Brexit will have an effect on our economy. Interest rates will rise a bit. House prices may not fall drastically but wages will catch up a bit, yours must - raises bonuses etc.

    Living and working in a city may seem like the only/best option. But there's more options out there


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    #402
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Augeo wrote: »
    Mortgage payments are 30/40/50% of people's gross wages?
    I doubt that's true but the CB rules have tightened up to ensure that shouldn't happen going forward.

    Someone on €50k who borrows €175k would pay back about €750/month over 30 years.

    That's 18% of gross wages on the mortgage, to get that to the 30/40/50% you mention .........well ....... I'm puzzled tbh.



    But you wont' find many many many many people on 3 quid/hour.


    Tell that to the numerous people struggling to pay their mortgage right now, It doesnt matter what your thoughts are. This is what is happening.



    I am still awaiting you to offer anything in the way of solutions.


    So far you have said nothing but opposed anything offered as a direction to go.

    Why ? can you explain that ?


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    #403
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    listermint wrote: »
    Tell that to the numerous people struggling to pay their mortgage right now, It doesnt matter what your thoughts are. This is what is happening.



    I am still awaiting you to offer anything in the way of solutions.


    So far you have said nothing but opposed anything offered as a direction to go.

    Why ? can you explain that ?

    You are talking through your hoop if you reckon loads of folk have mortgages that are 50% of their gross income.

    I don't have solutions really. Your one of taxing everyone more wasn't great though, IMO.
    A large part of the problem seem to be supply, completing units should help.


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    #404
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    Augeo wrote: »
    Mortgage payments are 30/40/50% of people's gross wages?
    I doubt that's true but the CB rules have tightened up to ensure that shouldn't happen going forward.

    Someone on €50k who borrows €175k would pay back about €750/month over 30 years.

    That's 18% of gross wages on the mortgage, to get that to the 30/40/50% you mention .........well ....... I'm puzzled tbh.



    But you wont' find many many many many people on 3 quid/hour.

    With the average house price in Dublin at €375k, a speculative figure of €175k is ridiculous. A habitable place in Dublin for €200,000 is extremely, nigh impossible, to find.

    And empirically, as a person in my thirties, you can double that €175k to get closer to the mark of what's the average mortgage borrowed by first time buyers that I know, in Dublin anyway.

    You should probably readjust your thinking of what the average mortgage payments taken on by first time buyers.

    You don't seem to be referring to a couple borrowing when you refute the percentages of peoples wages being spent, and from your wording you seem to refer to a single person buying. So really what you're saying is a bit mad if referring to Dublin. Outside of Dublin, very different.


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    #405
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    there is an attitude that those seeking to pay for their own place in Dublin that "tough sorry you've been priced out of the capital" but this attitude does not seem to apply to those who are seeking a place that the state will pay for.


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    #406
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    With the average house price in Dublin at €375k, a speculative figure of €175k is ridiculous. A habitable place in Dublin for €200,000 is extremely, nigh impossible, to find.

    And empirically, as a person in my thirties, you can double that €175k to get closer to the mark of what's the average mortgage borrowed by first time buyers that I know, in Dublin anyway.
    ............

    I'm in my 30s, I work in Dublin (not the city centre), live in Kildare. you'll get plenty 2 bed apartments for the figures I mentioned.

    that aside, is this topic just about Dublin?

    Also my comments were in direct reply to "Mortgage payments are 30/40/50% of people's gross wages". The mentioned €175k wasn't speculative it was to illustrate a point. Use whatever figures you want that are within the CB guidelines and a mortage repayment calculator.


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    #407
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    there is an attitude that those seeking to pay for their own place in Dublin that "tough sorry you've been priced out of the capital" but this attitude does not seem to apply to those who are seeking a place that the state will pay for.

    Divisive nonsense solves nothing, There is a need and a want for Social and Affordable housing AND private housing. They are not mutually exclusive.

    And there is a market for all. To pretend that just by providing social housing itself means that no one will want to buy private is untrue.

    If it was then private houses wouldnt exists after the state bankrolled vast swathes of social housing in the decades prior to now.

    People will always want to improve their lot. And buy providing a mix of all of the above it lowers house prices and pressure on the system.

    more expendable money , boost to the economy.


    As i said the divisive stuff about them and us, or unemployed versus working my ass off is meaningless and solves nothing for anybody. it plays right into government hands of Inaction, which is probably why is so widespread in media and comments sections...


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    #408
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Augeo wrote: »
    You are talking through your hoop if you reckon loads of folk have mortgages that are 50% of their gross income.

    I don't have solutions really. Your one of taxing everyone more wasn't great though, IMO.
    A large part of the problem seem to be supply, completing units should help.

    Youve talked 'through your hoop' since you got here.


    All negative nothing added to the conversation.

    Bravo.

    Must be an ideas guy...


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    #409
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    listermint wrote: »
    Youve talked 'through your hoop' since you got here............

    Claims like "Mortgage payments are 30/40/50% of people's gross wages" are utter horsesh1t. Bravo to yourself, you have zero self awareness and your mathematical skills are simply appalling.

    Tax everyone more la la la, a great, unworkable solution.


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    #410
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Augeo wrote: »
    Claims like "Mortgage payments are 30/40/50% of people's gross wages" are utter horsesh1t. Bravo to yourself, you have zero self awareness and your mathematical skills are simply appalling.

    So no one has a mortgage repayments amounting to that.

    Then why are people losing their homes ?

    And dont tell me its because they want a free gaff or emergency accommodation.


    Il await your solidly worked argument


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    #411
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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    #412
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭limnam


    listermint wrote: »
    Tell that to the numerous people struggling to pay their mortgage right now, It doesnt matter what your thoughts are. This is what is happening.



    A lot of people who are struggling now bought before the constraints and stress testing came in.


    Partly because they walked into a bank asking "how much can you give me" instead of working out affordability and figuring out how much they required and try to buy the biggest house in the best area possible.



    No one forces anyone to purchase a house and no one forces anyone to over extend themselves.


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    #413
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    draiochtanois wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I dont know anyone that fits into that criteria.

    And i know plenty of people that know Python, although prefer Java :)


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    #414
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    limnam wrote: »
    A lot of people who are struggling now bought before the constraints and stress testing came in.


    Partly because they walked into a bank asking "how much can you give me" instead of working out affordability and figuring out how much they required and try to buy the biggest house in the best area possible.



    No one forces anyone to purchase a house and no one forces anyone to over extend themselves    .

    No one implied that they were forced. I am responding to the comments that no one has stressed mortgages. Its blatantly waffle.


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    #415
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    draiochtanois wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Everyone acts as if abandoning one's family and social network is as simple as "just doing it". The effects of social isolation on mental health aren't just an issue for the individual, but they end up harming society as a whole. So telling people "touch sh!t, leave your lifelong community behind" as if there are no negative consequences beyond individuals being unhappy and lonely (which clearly many here don't give a bollocks about) is ridiculous. These issues come back to haunt society as a whole, not just the people you are demanding this of.


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    #416
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭limnam


    listermint wrote: »
    No one implied that they were forced. I am responding to the comments that no one has stressed mortgages. Its blatantly waffle.


    I don't know if you've gone through the mortgage process recently, but I was amazed at the amount of detail they went into in looking at our accounts.


    That's a good thing.


    Sure there's loads of mortgages that have been approved that were not properly tested.


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    #417
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭limnam


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Everyone acts as if abandoning one's family and social network is as simple as "just doing it". The effects of social isolation on mental health aren't just an issue for the individual, but they end up harming society as a whole. So telling people "touch sh!t, leave your lifelong community behind" as if there are no negative consequences beyond individuals being unhappy and lonely (which clearly many here don't give a bollocks about) is ridiculous. These issues come back to haunt society as a whole, not just the people you are demanding this of.


    Seems to be a very "Irish" thing though


    I'm always amazed how easily Americans just up and feck off to a new state for a job/house/better standard of living.


    It's like we can't manage to wipe our own arse if we're not in walking distance of our granny.


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    #418
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    limnam wrote: »
    I don't know if you've gone through the mortgage process recently, but I was amazed at the amount of detail they went into in looking at our accounts.


    That's a good thing.


    Sure there's loads of mortgages that have been approved that were not properly tested.

    I have and its a welcome change.

    There is still also some skullduggery going on, and not a small amount. Not en-masse like the past though


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    #419
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    limnam wrote: »
    Seems to be a very "Irish" thing though


    I'm always amazed how easily Americans just up and feck off to a new state for a job/house/better standard of living.


    It's like we can't manage to wipe our own arse if we're not in walking distance of our granny.

    Its not that Amazing America has multiple large cities in every state with jobs in each . Im really not sure how your comparison stacks up....


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    #420
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    listermint wrote: »
    So no one has a mortgage repayments amounting to that.

    Then why are people losing their homes ?

    And dont tell me its because they want a free gaff or emergency accommodation.


    Il await your solidly worked argument

    You brought in the Mortgage payments are 30/40/50% of people's gross wages speel in response to someone who bought in the 90s as you wanted to rubbish his figures. Ironically you rubbished his figures as they weren't applicable to "today" but now want to bring in pre 2007 mortgages that are under performing loans into the chat.
    listermint wrote: »
    So your mortgage was 1/10th your salary then, nothing like todays costs.

    Someone with a mortgage from the 90s is as valid as someone with a 2007 mortgage surely?

    The CB guidelines are there to prevent this happening.

    There are a tiny amount of folk with mortgage payments are 30/40/50% of their gross wages ............ even you the expert would struggle to come up with an example of someone. Mortgage payment being 50% of their gross salary ............and more I think you said too, lol


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    #421
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭limnam


    listermint wrote: »
    I have and its a welcome change.

    There is still also some skullduggery going on, and not a small amount. Not en-masse like the past though


    Possibly, again, personal accountability should come into it too.


    People need to change thier mentality on house purchasing.


    Some people put more thought and research into a weekend away.


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