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So who's going to see the Pope?

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Comments

  • #3962
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    If I ever condoned abuse or the cover up of abuse post a link to it.

    Responding to somebody 'using abuse as a political stick' is a different thing. The same type of posters like to use selected victims of the conflict in the same sickening exploitative ways. But then, if you read those threads, you would know that.

    No problem, just seeking clarification.


  • #3963
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,820 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Distraction from the abuse fished out by the RCC. That’s what’s gong on here now.

    It was a fair question about my posting record.

    But you are right, the thread isn't about me or SF or GA.


  • #3964
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,482 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It was a fair question about my posting record.

    But you are right, the thread isn't about me or SF or GA.

    Attack the post not the poster. Attacking the poster is deflection and that’s what’s happening. Usually it occurs when someone knows that their position is completely wrong.


  • #3965
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Attack the post not the poster. Attacking the poster is deflection and that’s what’s happening. Usually it occurs when someone knows that their position is completely wrong.

    I see Francie has accepted the reasoning for my question. I have always found him to be an honourable and intelligent poster.
    I think you misread my position, I don't believe the cc has any defence to offer that can justify their total discreditation with regards sex abuse within the organisation.
    Francie is well known for his posts on any SF thread he appears on for seeing the best side of SF, though with caveats of criticising any rogue actions, he can usually see the reasoning behind them.
    I just thought his posting on here on this thread, where he appears totally one sided in his view.
    Just for any that may not know of this,
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-stance-needed-on-sex-abuse-within-ira-wftmv78b6?t=ie


  • #3966
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,820 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Edward M wrote: »
    I see Francie has accepted the reasoning for my question. I have always found him to be an honourable and intelligent poster.
    I think you misread my position, I don't believe the cc has any defence to offer that can justify their total discreditation with regards sex abuse within the organisation.
    Francie is well known for his posts on any SF thread he appears on for seeing the best side of SF, though with caveats of criticising any rogue actions, he can usually see the reasoning behind them.
    I just thought his posting on here on this thread, where he appears totally one sided in his view.
    Just for any that may not know of this,
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-stance-needed-on-sex-abuse-within-ira-wftmv78b6?t=ie

    My motivation for posting on SF threads, (seeing their best side,as you say) is to challenge a whole raft of posters here who criticise them from an anti Republican bias rather than as another political party.

    I think there was sensationalism and political advantage taken over the abuse allegations within SF.
    Remember, two Dail Deputies claiming there were 40 'victims' waiting to make cases?
    That amounted to a hill of beans and as it has turned out, SF have, it seems about the national average of abusers within their ranks.
    They were ahead of all other parties instigating child protection procedures and Adams addressed and admitted his failings in regard to his brother.
    At the end of the day Maria Cahill's alleged rapist was waiting to defend himself (he didn't run) in a court too. As a democrat, I cannot ignore that fact.
    Nobody has a clean record on this stuff in Ireland.

    The Roman Catholic Church however...


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  • #3967
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Edward M wrote: »
    You'd be encouraging GA,  SF and other former IRA members to come clean and name and let all authorities know of the sex abusers they had in their midst that they removed to live elsewhere in god knows where to live?

    I have consistently done that.
    Adams owned up to making a mistake in relation to his brother and testified against him. SF recognised their failings and were the first (Afaik) to put child protection measures in place. His brother is in jail, where he should be.

    Are there any ongoing cases of abuse against the SF organisation? If there is, I call loudly for any information to be handed over.

    I can understand human beings making judgement mistakes - I cannot understand what is happening in the Roman Catholic church though.

    We got a pope, finally publicly stating that the abuse was wrong and abhorrent but zero on the Vatican's role in covering up and actively seeking to suppress.
    We had a pope publicly pontificating on these matters while a story of huge magnitude was breaking in yet another country. And all the while ordinary RC's were playing happy clappy, we love everyone in Croker and the Phoenix PArk.

    Making a mistake is dropping the jam jar or dropping a glass of milk, he covered up child sex abuse. Any other leader would have been destroyed utterly but Adam's has his fans so brainwashed they just believe anything he says. Luckily those of us outside the Sinn Fein cult challenge it.


  • #3968
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,820 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Taytoland wrote: »
    Making a mistake is dropping the jam jar or dropping a glass of milk, he covered up child sex abuse. Any other leader would have been destroyed utterly but Adam's has his fans so brainwashed they just believe anything he says. Luckily those of us outside the Sinn Fein cult challenge it.

    There is no argument (from me anyhow) that GA did the wrong thing when caught in a difficult family situation.
    If you are a reasonable person there is no denying that he admitted that and gave evidence against his brother who is rightly in jail.

    There is no comparison with that and what went on and is going on in the church.
    His political enemies made plenty of hay though.


  • #3969
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There is no argument (from me anyhow) that GA did the wrong thing when caught in a difficult family situation.
    If you are a reasonable person there is no denying that he admitted that and gave evidence against his brother who is rightly in jail.

    There is no comparison with that and what went on and is going on in the church.
    His political enemies made plenty of hay though.

    To be fair, all our political party's must face scrutiny on their handling of the situation.
    But to say there is no comparison is wrong too!
    On scale it might be far smaller than the church scandal, but hiding or covering one case of abuse makes anyone who did it as culpable as the covering of many.


  • #3970
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,820 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Edward M wrote: »
    To be fair, all our political party's must face scrutiny on their handling of the situation.
    But to say there is no comparison is wrong too!
    On scale it might be far smaller than the church scandal, but hiding or covering one case of abuse makes anyone who did it as culpable as the covering of many.

    The case against Liam Adams is closed. Gerry has admitted his faults in it.

    There is no comparison in that respect. I understand that people make mistakes but can make anmends.


  • #3971
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 17,977 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I honestly don't know how Roman Catholics can sit in a stadium listening to plamás and patronising nonsense (frankly) from a pope with the image of a young child wearing a gold cross as a signal for other depraved priests in their heads. Or the shocking things involved in the reality of rape and abuse of children.
    I cannot get that detail out of my head since I heard it. How supposedly 'good and christian' people can defeats me. It really does.

    Because not everything is black and white in this world. If we took your literal interpretation, we would boycott virtually everything for past misdemeanours....the Irish government, the British government, the GAA, RTE, you name it.

    The excellent series Scannal has been running on RTE all week and showed how corruption and scandals were endemic across Irish society throughout the 20th Century. The Irish Hospital Sweepstakes was an illegal money making scam that ran for decades where white collar criminals were raking in millions, with none of the money going to the hospitals. A gay man was beaten to death by a gang in Fairview Park in the 1980s and the killers got suspended sentences because the man was gay etc etc


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  • #3972
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Strazdas wrote:
    Because not everything is black and white in this world. If we took your literal interpretation, we would boycott virtually everything for past misdemeanours....the Irish government, the British government, the GAA, RTE, you name it.


    So the rape and abuse of children is a misdemeanor?


  • #3973
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,820 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Because not everything is black and white in this world. If we took your literal interpretation, we would boycott virtually everything for past misdemeanours....the Irish government, the British government, the GAA, RTE, you name it.

    The excellent series Scannal has been running on RTE all week and showed how corruption and scandals were endemic across Irish society throughout the 20th Century. The Irish Hospital Sweepstakes was an illegal money making scam that ran for decades where white collar criminals were raking in millions, with none of the money going to the hospitals. A gay man was beaten to death by a gang in Fairview Park in the 1980s and the killers got suspended sentences because the man was gay etc etc

    It is NOT a past tense issue. The latest story was only breaking when Ireland's RC's were literally playing happy families.


  • #3974
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 17,977 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It is NOT a past tense issue. The latest story was only breaking when Ireland's RC's were literally playing happy families.

    That's a technical point. Should we boycott AIB, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB for their role in the banking crisis? Leave the EU over the ECB and the burning the bondholders issue? Refuse to vote for Sinn Fein because of their past participation in paramilitary activities? I could make the claim that anyone who votes for Gerry Adams is a tacit apologist for the armed struggle, given that he claims to have had zero involvement and yet nobody believes him.


  • #3975
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,820 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Strazdas wrote: »
    That's a technical point. Should we boycott AIB, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB for their role in the banking crisis? Leave the EU over the ECB and the burning the bondholders issue? Refuse to vote for Sinn Fein because of their past participation in paramilitary activities? I could make the claim that anyone who votes for Gerry Adams is a tacit apologist for the armed struggle, given that he claims to have had zero involvement and yet nobody believes him.

    Absolutely they should be boycotted if they are STILL doing those things.

    You were waving flags at a man who refused to deal with priests who branded children so they can be abused for others. And whole refuses to deal with cover up after cover up and whose officers tried to bury abuse claims.
    You placed no onus on him as members of his organisation.
    That is the disgrace.


  • #3976
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 17,977 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Absolutely they should be boycotted if they are STILL doing those things.

    You were waving flags at a man who refused to deal with priests who branded children so they can be abused for others. And whole refuses to deal with cover up after cover up and whose officers tried to bury abuse claims.
    You placed no onus on him as members of his organisation.
    That is the disgrace.

    I wasn't present at any of those events but I would defend the right of those who attended to attend. Anyone who was at the Papal events was at the Papal events, full stop. They don't need to explain or justify their presence to anyone.

    It is you and others who are making the claim that they are apologists for child abuse or for the covering up of said abuse. The Taoiseach was at the Papal mass in Phoenix Park on Sunday among the crowd. There was no particular need for him to be present given that he had formally met the Pope the previous day at Dublin Castle. Is he a "disgrace" and an apologist for child abuse?


  • #3977
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,820 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Strazdas wrote: »
    I wasn't present at any of those events but I would defend the right of those who attended to attend. Anyone who was at the Papal events was at the Papal events, full stop. They don't need to explain or justify their presence to anyone.

    It is you and others who are making the claim that they are apologists for child abuse or for the covering up of said abuse. The Taoiseach was at the Papal mass in Phoenix Park on Sunday among the crowd. There was no particular need for him to be present given that he had formally met the Pope the previous day at Dublin Castle. Is he a "disgrace" and an apologist for child abuse?

    Anyone who facilitates silence or ignores the complete lack of action by the Vatican and actively encouraged that by their own silence is, frankly a disgrace.
    Believe what you want, nobody objects to that.

    Priests, bishops and popes got away with this because too many were silent and we're silenced.


  • #3978
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Is he a "disgrace" and an apologist for child abuse?

    Yes.

    I have absolutely no idea why the government would either (a) welcome the pope to this country and spend a heap of wasted money on his visit or (b) treat him as though he is an important dignitary - he isnt a democratically elected head of state, he is the head of a religion. Why not invite David Miscavige and spend 30m+ on a big show for him and have the government meet him as though he is an important person?


  • #3979
    Dannyriver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    ....... wrote: »
    Yes.

    I have absolutely no idea why the government would either (a) welcome the pope to this country and spend a heap of wasted money on his visit or (b) treat him as though he is an important dignitary - he isnt a democratically elected head of state, he is the head of a religion. Why not invite David Miscavige and spend 30m+ on a big show for him and have the government meet him as though he is an important person?

    Why would you invite a comedian and doesn t he live here already?


  • #3980
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    Why would you invite a comedian and doesn t he live here already?

    I think he meant the lad leading those Scientologists.


  • #3981
    Dannyriver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I think he meant the lad leading those Scientologists.

    Sorry it's perhaps a bit early for that one but I couldn t resist :D


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  • #3982
    Cork Boy 53
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭Cork Boy 53


    ....... wrote: »
    Yes.

    I have absolutely no idea why the government would either (a) welcome the pope to this country and spend a heap of wasted money on his visit or (b) treat him as though he is an important dignitary - he isnt a democratically elected head of state, he is the head of a religion. Why not invite David Miscavige and spend 30m+ on a big show for him and have the government meet him as though he is an important person?

    Actually the Pope, besides being head of the Catholic Church, is also the political sovereign of the Vatican City State and therefore is an elected head of state.


  • #3983
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Cork Boy 53 wrote: »
    Actually the Pope, besides being head of the Catholic Church, is also the political sovereign of the Vatican City State and therefore is an elected head of state.

    Sorry to burst your bubble.

    He is a head of state. But not an elected one.

    There are no democratic elections in the Vatican where all of the citizens vote.

    The pope is selected by the College of Cardinals. There is no democracy.

    Not only is it anti democratic but the conclave held to select him is a private secret affair - so who knows what goes on in there.


  • #3984
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    ....... wrote: »
    Sorry to burst your bubble.

    He is a head of state. But not an elected one.

    There are no democratic elections in the Vatican where all of the citizens vote.

    The pope is selected by the College of Cardinals. There is no democracy.

    Not only is it anti democratic but the conclave held to select him is a private secret affair - so who knows what goes on in there.


    'The Game Of Popes'



    (actually would be a good board game - ye'd have x amount of turns to try and load the college of cardinals so that they'd pick a candidate in line with your ideology)


  • #3985
    FingerDeKat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭FingerDeKat


    ^^^
    https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17499/vatican-board-game

    :P


  • #3986
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,122 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    So people were trying to say that this pope is different, that he will change the church. Well so much for that idea.
    “True, we are all sinners, we bishops,” he added. “He tries to uncover the sins, so they are visible in order to scandalize the people.

    So the problem is not that bishops covered up abuse but that the public found out.

    http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/09/11/pope-francis-the-great-accuser-is-trying-to-uncover-sins-to-cause-scandal/


  • #3987
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    So the problem is not that bishops covered up abuse but that the public found out.

    I'm a little worried that he is talking about the Devil roaming the world. I hope this is a metaphor.


  • #3988
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I'm a little worried that he is talking about the Devil roaming the world. I hope this is a metaphor.

    It sounds to me as if he is saying anyone looking for truth and justice is the devil!


  • #3989
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,122 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I'm a little worried that he is talking about the Devil roaming the world. I hope this is a metaphor.


    Nope, the devil is real and not a metaphor according to the pope


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/13/dont-argue-devil-much-intelligent-us-says-pope-francis/

    Edward M wrote: »
    It sounds to me as if he is saying anyone looking for truth and justice is the devil!


    It does sound like that alright.


  • #3990
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ....... wrote: »

    He is a head of state. But not an elected one.

    There are no democratic elections in the Vatican where all of the citizens vote.

    The pope is selected by the College of Cardinals. There is no democracy.

    Not only is it anti democratic but the conclave held to select him is a private secret affair - so who knows what goes on in there.

    Before you go throwing stones at how the pope 'is' elected, neither our Taoiseach or President has to be elected where all of the citizens vote.

    And our voting is done in secret too.


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  • #3991
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Before you go throwing stones at how the pope 'is' elected, neither our Taoiseach or President has to be elected where all of the citizens vote.

    And our voting is done in secret too.

    There is a big difference between how our Taoiseach and President (who has no power anyway) get into position than how the Pope does.

    At no point in the process does any ordinary citizen have a vote on who becomes a priest or moves up though the catholic ranks to cardinal to eventually become the pope. Its a closed shop all the way.


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