Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Muahahaha · 03-09-2018 1:53pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, was he there in 1975? If he wasn't, all he has is he said, she said.

nope wrong again, the stacks of files that the relatives of victims would say otherwise. For some reason you are trying to push the line that Drew Harris, with a responsibility of intelligence within the RUC has no intelligence of any historical (and important) events. Its a claim that has no credibility at all, to give it any credence is to call Drew Harris incompetent for not knowing his brief.

You have selectively quoted from Court judgements throughout this thread. I haven't been able to find a full transcript, that included Harris' evidence. Until I do, I can't be bothered responding, as the truth is probably different to the image you present.

That makes me laugh blanch152 given that I caught you out red handed on this very thread when you selectively quoted Judge OHiggins stating that Maurice McCabe "was prone to exaggeration" but you purposely left out the second part of the sentence which said he was "never less than truthful". It was around the time you claimed that McCabe "has serious questions to answer" but then you couldnt come up with these "serious questions" when challenged several times :rolleyes:

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 3:19pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Er, what about evidence in files?

Muahahaha wrote: »

nope wrong again, the stacks of files that the relatives of victims would say otherwise. For some reason you are trying to push the line that Drew Harris, with a responsibility of intelligence within the RUC has no intelligence of any historical (and important) events. Its a claim that has no credibility at all, to give it any credence is to call Drew Harris incompetent for not knowing his brief.

He can't take the files with him, obviously.

They are not Drew Harris' files, they are the PSNI's files. That is an important distinction.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 3:21pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

That makes me laugh blanch152 given that I caught you out red handed on this very thread when you selectively quoted Judge OHiggins stating that Maurice McCabe "was prone to exaggeration" but you purposely left out the second part of the sentence which said he was "never less than truthful". It was around the time you claimed that McCabe "has serious questions to answer" but then you couldnt come up with these "serious questions" when challenged several times :rolleyes:

Can you provide a link or not to back up what you are saying? You were wrong about O'Sullivan's son, you were wrong about Garda Harrison and you denied McCabe was prone to exaggeration until I produced the transcript.

Once you can produce the court transcript and show me that the judge you reference was talking directly about Drew Harris, I will respond. Until then.....

Muahahaha · 03-09-2018 4:28pm

blanch152 wrote: »

He can't take the files with him, obviously.

They are not Drew Harris' files, they are the PSNI's files. That is an important distinction.

So now you are shifting the goalposts from the files to the knowledge in his head. Are you actually claiming that he has no knowledge of historical attrocities in Northern Ireland despite him being the main point of contact with MI5?

Relatives for Justice - 2010

Drew Harris must resign in light of Glenanne Judgment

This morning the Belfast High Court delivered a devastating judgment in support of families affected by the state collusion. The judgment was in relation to the investigation of the “Glenanne Gang”, a UVF/RUC/UDR unit responisible for scores of killings throughout the 1970s in Mid-Ulster, and whose reach stretched to Dublin and Monaghan.

In 2010, then Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris wrote a letter to the legal representatives of UVF victims telling them that they would not get an investigation into the wider questions raised by the activities of the Glenanne gang. The most significant wider question was the extent of state involvement in the gang and its murderous activities, including the deaths of at least 89 people.

In writing this letter, Drew Harris, who is now Deputy Chief Constable, was subverting a decade of assurance that the UK government had given to the Committee of Minister of the Council of Europe that investigations into state killings would be carried out independently and would examine patterns, links to reveal systematic violations by the state of the right to life enshrined in Article 2 of the European Convention of Human Rights.

The vehicle to carry out these functions was the Historical Enquiries Team (HET). It had established a unit that was institutionally independent of the RUC and the PSNI in that it was based in England and had no members who had ever been in either of those forces. It was operationally independent as it did not have to seek leave from the PSNI in relation to its investigations and it had its own finances. This was how the HET was sold to the European oversight mechanism as a creditable response to European Court judgements in a range of state killing cases in 2001. From its foundation in 2005 Relatives for Justice, with many families, held no confidence in the HET or its assertions of independence. This position was vindicated in 2014 when Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Policing found that the HET was indeed lacking in independence and indeed acting illegally when examining cases where the state was implicated.

However, it was on the basis of the PSNI’s assurances of independence that the Committee of Ministers signed off on its supervision in 2009.

That was when Drew Harris made his move. In 2010, he brought the HET in under his control as head of Crime Operations Branch of the PSNI. He removed investigative functions from HET officers; they could no longer arrest and question suspects. He took control of their budget, and he closed down their thematic investigation unit which was cross referencing the individual investigations for links, patterns and systems drawing out the involvement of RUC personnel and wider collusion.

When Drew Harris wrote his letter, the families asked the courts to review the matter. Today Mr Justice Treacey gave his devastating assessment, accusing Drew Harris of an “extreme” abuse of power in closing down this exercise in analysing collusion. By doing so, he made it clear that “the state is not genuinely committed” to addressing the concerns of families, despite all its claims to Europe.

By defending the integrity of the right to life as spelt out in numerous European cases, the court has driven a coach and horses through DCC Drew Harris’ attempts to cover up the past actions of the RUC and the policy of collusion. This former RUC officer made a pledge to defend and protect the reputation of RUC. This despite being the second most senior officer in the PSNI, and a key part of the “new beginning to policing”. Is this what he was doing when he wrote the letter to the victims of the UVF?

The other implication of this judgement is that it adds further pressure for the establishment of Legacy mechanisms of the Stormont House Agreement and an immediate unlocking of any barriers to the Legacy Inquests, including that of the endemic failures in disclosure by the PSNI. These cases are not going away, for all that Drew Harris wishes they would. The PSNI shows its continual disdain for transparency in its failure to provide disclosure to inquests and in civil cases, most recently in respect of another set of UVF agents involved in killings and the attempted murder of John Flynn. Only immediate moves to fully implement the SHA mechanisms in an independent and human rights compliant fashion can resolve this continual violation of victims’ rights.

Drew Harris is the man at the head of PSNI legacy affairs; it is surely time for him to resign. He is a reminder of the political policing of the past and the contamination of current policing by the cover up of the past. His role in this case is the last straw. - https://relativesforjustice.com/drew...anne-judgment/

Now if Drew Harris went out of his way to block justice for relatives of victims (from both Catholic & Protestant backgrounds) how on earth has he displayed that he is a police officer that will uphold the law, without fear or favour. Clearly the families of victims in the north have not thus far secured justice and have now been forced into taking their case to the European Court of Human Rights.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 4:51pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

So now you are shifting the goalposts from the files to the knowledge in his head. Are you actually claiming that he has no knowledge of historical attrocities in Northern Ireland despite him being the main point of contact with MI5?

Now if Drew Harris went out of his way to block justice for relatives of victims (from both Catholic & Protestant backgrounds) how on earth has he displayed that he is a police officer that will uphold the law, without fear or favour. Clearly the families of victims in the north have not thus far secured justice and have now been forced into taking their case to the European Court of Human Rights.

That link doesn't work first of all, and secondly, it only goes to a support group page, not the court case text and what you posted is a commentary on the judgement, not the judgement.

Captain Obvious · 03-09-2018 7:51pm

Edward M wrote: »

It'd be a great coup for British intelligence, to have one of it's top officers appointed as garda commissioner, with access to every garda file on any person of interest to them with a secret garda file as well.
Might be far fetched.......... But?

Would it really? What kind of intelligence would they not simply be able to request? It's not like they are a hostile power. The two countries cooperate.

tayto lover · 03-09-2018 8:11pm

One thing I liked about today was the Garda Reps asking the new Commissioner to stop allowing the force to be used by politicians. Let's see how that goes.

Edward M · 03-09-2018 8:53pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Would it really? What kind of intelligence would they not simply be able to request? It's not like they are a hostile power. The two countries cooperate.

Do they, do you think for one minute that British intelligence shares all its files and intelligence on northern paramilitaries, redacted or otherwise with our govt?
Do you think vice versa either?
Of course not, and anyone who thinks they do is very naive I feel!

FrancieBrady · 03-09-2018 9:00pm

Edward M wrote: »

Do they, do you think for one minute that British intelligence shares all its files and intelligence on northern paramilitaries, redacted or otherwise with our govt?
Do you think vice versa either?
Of course not, and anyone who thinks they do is very naive I feel!

The thought that strikes me is what if the spooks in the British intelligence agencies needed some sensitive info on an Irish politician to undermine a government, itself in the middle of sensitive European negotiations?
Would the British be capable of a stunt like that?

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 9:08pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The thought that strikes me is what if the spooks in the British intelligence agencies needed some sensitive info on an Irish politician to undermine a government, itself in the middle of sensitive European negotiations?
Would the British be capable of a stunt like that?

That is a funny theory.

Esel · 03-09-2018 9:39pm

We badly need a separate intelligence agency here. We could call it MI7.

Edward M · 03-09-2018 10:19pm

As I look at it now, its a crazy appointment really.
We have a former psni head of intelligence appointed as garda commissioner.
In relation to the peace process, given his record of being a nationalist bogey man, on top of the collapsed assembly, brexit and the DUP propping up the Tories, it might look like the world is conspiring against nationalists in NI.
Maybe there was thought put in to his appointment, but as an all Ireland consideration its not helpful I think.

Captain Obvious · 04-09-2018 8:41pm

And with one press conference the new Commissioner strikes a blow to his relationship with his employees.

The Commissioner rejected the findings of a cultural audit of gardaí released earlier this year, which suggested that morale within An Garda Síochána is at an all-time low.

http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-commissioner-drew-harris-psni-4218008-Sep2018/

04-09-2018 8:49pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

And with one press conference the new Commissioner strikes a blow to his relationship with his employees.

http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-commissioner-drew-harris-psni-4218008-Sep2018/

I noticed that straight away! Sounds just like every other commissioner, saying what the government want to hear, not his employees.

tayto lover · 04-09-2018 9:30pm

bubblypop wrote: »

I noticed that straight away! Sounds just like every other commissioner, saying what the government want to hear, not his employees.

And sticking to his guns on his evidence to Smithwicks in the face of criticism from Garda members and retired members. Can only see trouble ahead for him from within. Also despite the Garda Union saying morale among members is low he comes out and says it's not.

He's siding with his political masters already.

Captain Obvious · 05-09-2018 6:17am

He also said the organisation has enough resources, a position the previous Commissioner took and which infuriated Gardaí. The new Commissioner did add a caveat that the resources may not be going to the right places so we will have to see what some of his changes are in that regard.

Edgware · 10-09-2018 4:37pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

He also said the organisation has enough resources, a position the previous Commissioner took and which infuriated Gardaí. The new Commissioner did add a caveat that the resources may not be going to the right places so we will have to see what some of his changes are in that regard.

Like all public services its not just a matter of throwing money at the problem. The new man is right to find out is it being spent correctly. Rural Irelands needs a police presence as much as the urban areas

blanch152 · 10-09-2018 4:44pm

Edgware wrote: »

Like all public services its not just a matter of throwing money at the problem. The new man is right to find out is it being spent correctly. Rural Irelands needs a police presence as much as the urban areas

Rural Ireland doesn't need a police presence as much as the urban areas, simply down to the fact that less people living there means less requirement for a police presence.

If what you are saying is true, then the Australian outback and the Amazon jungle are the worst policed places in the world with the highest rates of crime.

Edgware · 10-09-2018 4:53pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Rural Ireland doesn't need a police presence as much as the urban areas, simply down to the fact that less people living there means less requirement for a police presence.

If what you are saying is true, then the Australian outback and the Amazon jungle are the worst policed places in the world with the highest rates of crime.

Rural Ireland has crime issues, traffic issues etc and requires a visible police presence.
Hardly a month goes by without a road fatality involving young drivers in Donegal.
The police presence must be such that the response time for a 999 call in rural areas is as equal to city areas not relying on one patrol car to cover half a county

blanch152 · 10-09-2018 5:06pm

Edgware wrote: »

Rural Ireland has crime issues, traffic issues etc and requires a visible police presence.
Hardly a month goes by without a road fatality involving young drivers in Donegal.
The police presence must be such that the response time for a 999 call in rural areas is as equal to city areas not relying on one patrol car to cover half a county

Firstly, the young drivers in Donegal issue won't be solved by extra gardai, it requires cultural change among the community to make that type of behaviour - speeding and drink driving - unacceptable, and better education in schools.

Ensuring that the response time for a 999 call in rural areas is equal to city areas would require an investment of resources that would triple the size of the Gardai and leave most of them sitting on their hands all the time. The reality is that rural dwellers cannot expect the same level of services - banks, shops, broadband etc. - or public services - gardai, hospitals, schools, universities etc. as urban dwellers.

ancapailldorcha · 10-09-2018 6:26pm

Don't turn this into another Rural vs Urban Ireland thread please.

10-09-2018 6:37pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Rural Ireland doesn't need a police presence as much as the urban areas, simply down to the fact that less people living there means less requirement for a police presence.

Rural Ireland needs much more of a police presence then they have now.
No one believes that rural areas will ever have the same response times as the city. But they deserve to have Gardai in their community.
The biggest mistake AGS ever made was closing all the rural stations.

What do you think of the new commissioners rejection of the cultural audit?

Edgware · 10-09-2018 10:20pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Firstly, the young drivers in Donegal issue won't be solved by extra gardai, it requires cultural change among the community to make that type of behaviour - speeding and drink driving - unacceptable, and better education in schools.

Ensuring that the response time for a 999 call in rural areas is equal to city areas would require an investment of resources that would triple the size of the Gardai and leave most of them sitting on their hands all the time. The reality is that rural dwellers cannot expect the same level of services - banks, shops, broadband etc. - or public services - gardai, hospitals, schools, universities etc. as urban dwellers.

The cultural change in attitude to drink driving was hammered home by very tough enforcement and seriously reduced limits.
With proper provision of transport and organised patrolling and working hours the police service in rural areas could see big improvements

TCM · 10-09-2018 10:22pm

A former B Special in charge of the Rep of Irl police force.

Edward M · 11-09-2018 12:11am

Edgware wrote: »

The cultural change in attitude to drink driving was hammered home by very tough enforcement and seriously reduced limits.
With proper provision of transport and organised patrolling and working hours the police service in rural areas could see big improvements

Is that it, catch a few drink drivers?
The amount of criminals using rural Ireland for cover is chronic but we can catch a few drink drivers no prob, but to make it look good we might even massage those figures?

Edgware · 11-09-2018 10:09am

Edward M wrote: »

Is that it, catch a few drink drivers?
The amount of criminals using rural Ireland for cover is chronic but we can catch a few drink drivers no prob, but to make it look good we might even massage those figures?

You have to have police on the ground first before anything can be done. Sporadic checkpoints checking not only for drunken drivers will catch travelling criminals etc. Or alternatively we can do nothing but whinge

Edward M · 11-09-2018 10:32am

Edgware wrote: »

You have to have police on the ground first before anything can be done. Sporadic checkpoints checking not only for drunken drivers will catch travelling criminals etc. Or alternatively we can do nothing but whinge

True enough I suppose in fairness.
Just my point is that in general unless a crime is spotted and acted upon straight away here, like property theft, rife in the countryside here now, then you can kiss your property goodbye.
A friend recently had a mower taken, he spotted the vehicle leaving the yard, reported it straight away but hadn't a licence plate, the gardai said they'd send out word to cars to keep an eye out for the particular type of vehicle, never found it or his mower, it was the next day before a garda turned up at his house even for a statement of what happened.

Edgware · 11-09-2018 4:20pm

Edward M wrote: »

True enough I suppose in fairness.
Just my point is that in general unless a crime is spotted and acted upon straight away here, like property theft, rife in the countryside here now, then you can kiss your property goodbye.
A friend recently had a mower taken, he spotted the vehicle leaving the yard, reported it straight away but hadn't a licence plate, the gardai said they'd send out word to cars to keep an eye out for the particular type of vehicle, never found it or his mower, it was the next day before a garda turned up at his house even for a statement of what happened.

There has been a lit of community effort with schemes like text alert to circulate dodgy looking visitors to an area but you still need police on the ground. A lot of the Garda stations are based where old ric stations were In the 19 th century so Drew Harris will probably do a review of all those

James Brown · 12-09-2018 1:52pm

IMO, people have a civic duty to report a crime. It's about a sense of decency. You don't have to of course but do we want a society made up of people who won't put themselves out for their community/society? A commissioner withholding information on an investigation of national importance would be on another level all together.
I'm glad we got someone from outside Garda ranks, but I think this posting is another crisis waiting to happen. Takes some light away from the not fit for purpose Garda organisation, it's book keeping and treatment of the lower ranks of it's own members mind.

The Tetrarch · 12-09-2018 2:00pm

TCM wrote: »

A former B Special in charge of the Rep of Irl police force.

Article 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

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